Mexico seeks U.S. immigration changes

Originally posted by Chakotay

I am sending Stevenson an embroidered white hood for Christmas.

I will not debate with them any more. It is hopeless. I will check in from time to time though, to make sure the final words in the forum are:

I can't figure out how to Tear down the wall.

Okie Dokie Chakotie!

You have totally copped out! Run for the hills because you are unable to take a factual argument and turn it into positive dialogue. Maybe Zapata can have a go at it?

Zapata, this may help. It is an essay by two Native Americans on a theory created by Art Young, the father of the Bell 47 Helicopter: Mending the Sacred Hoop .

Tear Down the Wall - Build A Pyramid For All

Mending The Sacred Hoop
The White People were told that they had a special mission to counsel the other races and bring them all together.

Well Chakotay, you appear to be rather inflexible regarding your demand to tear down the walls, as any good Counselor would tell you ... first you have to delineate the problems and then outline the solutions. We have delineated many problems here but you are being resistant to providing the input and flexibility to acknowledging that change is possible. You appear akin to the child that, afraid of unfamiliar territory, cries and screams base familiar arguments to the winds for all to hear.

[edit to fix quote on 17-11-2004 by Chuck Stevenson]

[edit on 17-11-2004 by Chuck Stevenson]

Originally posted by dusty1031
So yes, a person from say Syria is more likely to want to inflict violence than someone from say the UK, though that is not to say that is always the case, just genetic tendancy.

Where did you get Syria from? Just because it happens to be an official enemy of the US? I have visited Syria. I have been to Damascus (interestingly, Damascus is the oldest continually inhabited city in the world) and Aleppo, and you know what? The people are friendly, but they are scared. Assad and his fascist cronies have long occupied lebanon, and for that they are hated in lebanon, and only just now is there a strong student movement building to oppose their continued occupation. It is difficult, however, when there are close to 20,000 syrian troops stationed in lebanon, who know that the puppet lebanese government will back them up if they decide to kill a few protesters. Incidentally, it has been almost two years since 13 students from a beirut university were killed by syrian troops. However, I have no animosity towards the Syrian people. They are scared, poor, and oppressed. It is most definetly not their fault. This is a little off topic, however. The idea that syrians (which are of semitic descent) are predisposed to violence is complete bull$hit. The same sort of dictatorship has been installed in almost all parts of the world at some time or other. In the middle east, in the former soviet union, in africa, in latin america, etc. Does that mean that those people are also pre-disposed to terrorism? Or is it that everyone except an american is pre-disposed to terrorism? Which ever way you look at it, it smacks of apologist racism.

I am sending Stevenson an embroidered white hood for Christmas.

I wouldn't bother, he must have hundreds by now.

Zapata, these two are probably beyond salvation. They are candidates for 'have another beer on me, my friend'. What they do not realize is, that it is you and I that will carry them home when they pass out, tuck them in, and say a little prayer to Jesus, Jose and Maria that God has mercy on their souls. Then we will let them in on our secret hangover cure the next day. I will not debate with them any more. It is hopeless. I will check in from time to time though, to make sure the final words in the forum are:

Tear down the wall.

haha. nicely put.

HEY, I DO NOT HATE SYRIA, LOOK AT THE EARLIER POSTS, I HAVE CLEARLY SAID THERE ARE SOME PLACES IN EVERY NATION THAT ARE GOOD< AND SOME THAT ARE BAD, I DID NOT SAY ALL SYRIA IS BAD, NOR THE PEOPLE, BUT THEY DO HAVE A REPUTATION OF VIOLENT ACTS, SO LEARN THAT YOU DID NOT SEE ALL THE PEOPLE IN SYRIA SO, WHOEVER YOU ARE, BUTT OUT, OR TRY TO TAKE A REALISTIC VIEW.

you said about the government, I am talking about people, and people can have a predispostition twards violence, I could have just as easily said any country that conducts massive terrorist acts, or is constantly at war. I do believe I even said "though that is not to say that is always the case, just genetic tendancy." --ME, so before you get off on your little 'SYRIA IS GREAT' kick, reread what I said, and know that I have said and stand by that genetics and enviroments give people predispositions twards violence, NOT all Syrians are bad, DID I SAY THEY WERE?, So, shut your yap about how we are racists, I am basing my argument about the FACT that genetics and enviroment offer people predispositions twords tendancy, and you have to go and freak out calling everyone a racist, so yeah, shut up.

LOL, refrain your language, and if you want to argue about predisposition, look who your semitic people really are (semitic: a member of any of a number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs b : a descendant of these peoples) hmmmm do they have wars? YES do they fight? YES do your people decend from the same people as palistine (war w/ isreal), isreal (war w/ palistine, Iraq, Egypt...), Iraq (war w/ US, war w/ Saudies (our alllys), Isreal, and Iran), Iran (hostages against US, war w/ Iraq...) and probibly pakistan (war w/ India), ALL VERY ON THE EDGE WARRING NATIONS???? YES So, yup, ok, they are decended from generation after generation, of warring peoples, that still occures today. REMEMBER, the HUNNS are the ansesters of those people, the TURKS (one of the largest and violent empires ever) are their ansestors, and the Ottomans, also their relitives.

AS FOR YOU, Chakotay, I NEVER THOUGH YOU WOULD STOOP SO LOW, SO HERE AND NOW I WILL DESTROY YOUR LAST COMMENT

I DO NOT DRINK, nor have I in a long time, and have NEVER EVER EVER been drunk to the point even where my vision is blured, or I needed, or asked for a ride home, (I have only drunken 4 times EVER, so shut your dirty lieing mouth),

that my friend and neighbor, is a stereotype all for you, and let it be noted, all falsehoods grow from a curnal of the truth, so you just shut your hole.

AS FOR GENETICS....

" the important argument is not whether enviroment affects the kind of behavior and characteristics...but by how much?...The concensus of the dicipline of psychology relying on TWIN STUDIES, maintain though the figgure is lower than the Murray-Herrnstein estimate (70%), it is still in the range of 40-50%" --Francis Fukuyama, "our post human future, Ch8 page 137

Who is Francis Fukuyama?

YOU, YOU Business man with absolutaly NO backround in ANYTHING relating to Genetics needs to look into the facts before talking
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chakotay, you are not a good man, as a matter of fact, not to be hateful, but you typicly present your arguments poorly, and when you come accross something you cannot rebutt, you start calling names with NOTHING to back them up, just like your arguments. I don't hate many people, but really, by the definition of stupidity (given to unintelligent decisions or acts : acting in an unintelligent or careless manner c : lacking intelligence or reason : ) you really are, I resent your comments, and do believe people like you should really learn to restrain your insults (I have done nothing you have accused me of) and should you make an argument, you should base it off fact, which I have done, and your comments seem to be 'shot to pieces', so please if you want, call me some more names like the little 6 year old girl you are pretending to be,or may very well be, and move on, unless you are going to present lagitamate, BACKED arguments, or you have no business here.


[edit on 17/11/2004 by dusty1031]

.
.
.
Time to get real guys. The big boys are already negotiating, and you don't get to vote.

North America Plans Continental Corporate Merger
www.atsnn.com...


A tri-national task force with the full backing of the US, Canadian and Mexican governments is planning to expand the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) to include a broad range of items not defined legally as goods or services. The new integration package will incorporate common policies and laws for energy, immigration, law enforcement and security.

www.worldnetdaily.com...

"North American national borders would be virtually eliminated under plans being considered by senior business and political leaders from Canada, the United States and Mexico for a "NAFTA-plus," continent-wide, customs-free zone with a common approach to trade, energy, immigration, law enforcement and security.

The mission has the formal blessing of Tom Ridge, U.S. Homeland Security secretary, who is close with President Bush.

The "NAFTA-plus" plan has also been referred to as "deep integration." Skeptics see it as a plan to eliminate national sovereignty and erode the American concept of representative government accountable to the people under the framework of the Constitution."

...I don't want to support racism or bigotry - or encourage either - but this deal sucks.



.

Originally posted by Chakotay

Originally posted by Ryanp5555
I SAY HELL YES TO AN AMERICAN UNION! I mean the idea of this is just INCREDIBLE! Of course in the end the EU the AU and Probably the other AU's would eventually form a PU, Planetary Union.

Right on Ryan. Note to History: Ryan has coined the term PU, Planetary Union. PU on the UN.

TEAR DOWN THE WALL.

...Read this after I posted. Agree Planetary Union is necessary. As long as it's not corporate controlled. Panarchy over hierarchy.

Problem is, the way the CCM super-sized NAFTA is washing down, we're giving away all our resources so the corporations can sell it back them back to us at premium prices. duh. Oh yeah, and they get lots of cheap labor out of the deal to.



.


.

hmmmm, that same link is posted above, or at least a very similar one.


I doubt this will happen, at least to the point of full free open borders, because as it can be seen throughout this thread, most people don't want that to happen, so no US politician would ever make a move on it.

The economies have to be balanced, some will cause a rise in standard of living and some will cause a drop in standards of living. The age of the "common man" is drawing to a close in favor of the "Corporate Nation State".

calm down dusty. flying off the handle makes you sound even less knowledgeable.

Originally posted by General Zapata
calm down dusty. flying off the handle makes you sound even less knowledgeable.

That post of his was posted yesterday. What's with the baiting?

Originally posted by dusty1031

I doubt this will happen, at least to the point of full free open borders, because as it can be seen throughout this thread, most people don't want that to happen, so no US politician would ever make a move on it.

You need to read the coverage dusty - it already is happening.

Chuck Stevenson

The economies have to be balanced, some will cause a rise in standard of living and some will cause a drop in standards of living. The age of the "common man" is drawing to a close in favor of the "Corporate Nation State".

...Tell me Chuck - Do you also think the feudal system is the most desirable form of government?



.

Feudal State? I don't understand how you thought I would support such a thing, but if you reason it out, extended Corporate Control creates Corporate Feudal estates.

To reitierate and get this thread back into line, I do not agree that the U.S./Mexico border should be opened at this time. As I have stated before there are too many differences between the two countries that would lead to clashes of all kinds.

Anyone who witnessed the Los Angeles riots after the Rodney King case should recognise that by the second day, it had become a riot of Capital Accrual as rioters/looters were breaking into stores and walking out with whatever they could carry. This is one of many possible scenarios to happen if, as Chakotay wants, the border is opened immediately. The poor of Mexico (and many other countries that are currently in Mexico) will surge to the United States with great expectations and many, many demands. When these are not met, they will react out of frustration from the sudden bursting of the bubble of their fantasies about life in the U.S.

as im going through US immigration right now i can tell you, getting to become a US citizen is hard as hell, how ever im not mexican, im from New zealand, and let me tell you i can tottaly understand why there is so many illegal immigrants, so far i have paid almost 7000 dollars for my immigration, thats including lawyers, ins forms, ins notices, ins medicals, various tests and injections. and i have only been going through this process for 18 months, i still have about 3 years left, hell im not even offically a resident yet, and up untill that time i have to have work permits and visas. you want to make the borders tighter, the easiest way is to cut the cost of immigrating, then you will have more legal immigrants, and less illegal ones.

You know what soficrow, I don't see it happening in the US, we still have limited borders, and so does mexico in the south, as well as Canada to the north, Talk is cheap, I see nothing but talk, thank you

hmm, yup, it does cost alot to immigrate, and you do bring un p an interesting point, but at the same time, is that really what we want? What is stopping alot of people from countries like mexico isn't the cost, but the quotas. mmhmm it sucks that it is that much, and it really shouldn't be, but to lower the costs, the people that make up a majority of this conversation are the lower end workers, that wouldn't be able to afford it untill it is nearly free. Once it gets that low the immigration offices will be full and quotas will be filled based on many low end workers. Why would we want to admit mostly low end workers when we could keep the higher prices to act as a control of who comes in?

(ie based on quotas, in the current system most legals are middle/upper class or business owners, where as if we lower the prices to encourage the lower end worker to immigrate, they will dissplace the middle/upper, and we will end up with alot of lower and not alot of upper, that isn't right. Social services will soar, and without an adequate proportion of upper class, the burden will fall on current residents.)

General Zapata, I cited professional works that back my oppinion, that seems pretty knowlagable, I don't want to argue any more, so continue with the thread.

[edit on 19/11/2004 by dusty1031]

Originally posted by Chuck Stevenson
Anyone who witnessed the Los Angeles riots after the Rodney King case should recognise that by the second day, it had become a riot of Capital Accrual as rioters/looters were breaking into stores and walking out with whatever they could carry.

Mugwump. What does this have to do with Mexico? Rodney is a descendant of some folks your great Granpa brought over here against their will who didn't want to be here. And the riot, as I recall, was inspired by some typical Stevenson 'questioning' a'la Abu Graib. Yup, lots of differences between Mexico and US. For one, You live up here, Chuckie.

Got you a size six hood. Hope it's small enough.

Tear down the Wall, Mr. Stevenson.

Originally posted by Chakotay
Mugwump.

Is this some kind of insult?

Originally posted by Chakotay
... Rodney is a descendant of some folks your great Granpa brought over here against their will who didn't want to be here.

You are accusing my family of Slave Trading?

Originally posted by Chakotay
And the riot, as I recall, was inspired by some typical Stevenson 'questioning' a'la Abu Graib.

You are accusing me of torturing people and associating me with out-of-control U.S. soldiers?

Originally posted by Chakotay
Got you a size six hood. Hope it's small enough.

You have been hinting rather broadly that you are getting me a hood from the Klu Klux Klan. I protest.

I am now asking the Moderators that Chakotay's directly pointed insults and accusations cause him to be BANNED. Chakotay, your racist behavior and personal attacks are not funny, and if I knew where you lived I would have you in court in a matter of days for your HATE SPEECH and LIBEL (both are enforceable on the internet). I thought you said you were taking the high road, obviously you have decided that the LOW ROAD is where you would rather be. Chakotay, You are a racist hatefilled little man without the necessary reason or intelligence to engage in a constructive argument.

Originally posted by Chuck Stevenson

Originally posted by Chakotay
Mugwump.

Is this some kind of insult?

Absolutely not. It is a term of honor: www.worldwidewords.org...

Originally posted by Chakotay
... Rodney is a descendant of some folks your great Granpa brought over here against their will who didn't want to be here.
You are accusing my family of Slave Trading?.

This may be unfair. I retract it pending your relation of family history.

Originally posted by Chakotay
And the riot, as I recall, was inspired by some typical Stevenson 'questioning' a'la Abu Graib.
You are accusing me of torturing people and associating me with out-of-control U.S. soldiers?

I accuse you of questioning cruelly and with great disrespect for the members of this forum, myself, and the people of Mexico. I associate you with a lack of care for the feelings of allies who support you and your country with their blood every day as soldiers in the war against terror. I do not accuse you personally of physically torturing people.

Originally posted by Chakotay
Got you a size six hood. Hope it's small enough.
You have been hinting rather broadly that you are getting me a hood from the Klu Klux Klan. I protest.

Your assumption. I am getting you an honorary Latino hood. I believe you call them 'watchcaps'. You are welcome to take it or leave it. I wear mine every day.

We finally agree. We are both disagreeable. I will not taunt you farther, Charles, and I think that you will agree the taunting has been mutual and satisfying for both of us. I stand corrected, and in awe of your adamancy. I still believe we are more alike than you think, and that time will make us both friends. I salute you as Mugwump, a true Chief, and a brave orator. Farewell.

And please, reconsider the Wall. We really do like you.

Edit: I want to emphasize that I respect the fervor of your debate. If you did not fight for your beliefs, how could I respect you? I myself have a hotheaded Latin temperament and enjoy a good scrap. I am not asking that you be banned; I want to hear what you really have to say. That's the advantage of a forum with screen-names- rather hard to libel a screen-name. So you have voiced the TRUE concerns of yes, millions of Americans. And I have voiced the TRUE concerns of yes, millions of Mexican-Americans. We obviously need to sit down as Nations and talk this over. Because we do need each other, you and I. We have enemies in the world who really do wish us both harm. I pray for protection for you and yours, and hope you will do the same for me and mine.

[edit on 20-11-2004 by Chakotay]

OK Chakotay, that's the third time you have insinuated that another members is racist, ie: KKK. I saw no provokation. Further taunting in this matter WILL be dealt with. In other words, you'll be thrown over that wall.

Just to be clear, I am by no means pejudist, racist, or baised. I am just an "AMERICAN" This is a complete outrage! I am sickened by what I see. These people come over here "ILLEGALLY" and do work we will not do for lower wages. (not the work ,the wages). They use illegal SS#`s , phony names , etc. They receive medical treatment, welfare, college grants, and much much more. All "ILLEGALLY". Alot of these people aren`t in the country for six months nor do they speak english and thier buying houses and driving mercedes, Yet they are here "ILLEGALLY". Do not get me wrong not all of them have it this good, but it is getting there. And shame on our government for letting them over populate us. It is without a doubt time to close the borders! The government itself is breaking the laws, the local police are breaking the laws, They need to start arresting these people and fingerprinting them, seize all of thier property for resale (to AMERICANS). The reason we should fingerprint them is if they apply for citizenship within ten years of being caught here "ILLEGALLY" they should be denied! thus discouraging them from jumping the borders in the first place. This government is a joke.