Paul contradicts Jesus

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


I appreciate your tenacity for sharing your opinion on the differences between Paul and Jesus.
But your constant regurgitation of this argument is getting old.

I know you enjoy the battle with those who oppose your view, and you do a good job defending your position, but wont it be the same members with he same responses and you will have your standard replies.

What do you hope to accomplish?

reply to post by Observationalist


As I said, to get people thinking, whether it's people I've debated with before or people I have not. I am trying to put this information out there for those who were not aware of it and I personally don't see any harm in that.

I also enjoy the debate, but that is secondary and not primary. I am not forcing anyone to look at this thread, if they see it, great, if they don't see it or ignore it then no sweat.

Might I suggest a prosaic explanation. The dead Paul is talking about, are those who died in Christ in this world. The Bible teaches that they are then alive in Christ in the next, and that death is a mere transitory process towards claiming our true selves and our true destiny in Christ.

Thus God remains God of the living. Context reveals that Paul is simply talking about those who died in Christ. Moreover I might remind you that Jesus was talking of the resurrection as well in that passage. Thus the "living" that Jesus spoke of were Old Testament saints who were now "alive" in God's presence, though they passed away in this world.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by Akragon

You two guys! You both believe in re-incarnation. What if I am Paul. Do you really want to continue some mad campaign against Paul? Give it a break.

reply to post by pthena


Why would it matter if you were?

I don't personally hate Paul... its not like I knew him...

I just find nothing of use in his texts... aside from his view of "love"

reply to post by Akragon

Just to quote another poster:

Originally posted by Observationalist
But your constant regurgitation of this argument is getting old.
. . .
wont it be the same members with he same responses and you will have your standard replies.

What do you hope to accomplish?

reply to post by pthena


lol... Its not my thread

reply to post by Akragon

Thanks for the LOL. I was getting in a bad mood. Fair enough. I gave you a star.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

how the bible is nowhere close to being the inerrant, infallible word of god.

If your purpose is to shoot down the fundamentalist notions about infallibility, then why not pick on the Old Testament? I would have no problem coming up with hundreds of contradictions.

Do you really want people to toss out the New Testament and keep the Old?

Do you understand that you sound exactly like the Judaisers who Paul opposed?

Do you understand what is happening in the World today?
see my comment here: McCain visits rebels in Syria,for talks with rebels,

The weirdest thing just happened. When I attempted to give you an extremely revealing couple of texts from the Old Testament, I got automatically logged off. Weird huh? I do believe that has happened to me before with the same two texts. You'll just have to find them yourself. Hint: census by David.

reply to post by pthena


There was a time I thought of the NT as one book and the old another...

I didn't even consider the issue until I came here...

When "Christians" refute Christ's words with Paul...

There's a serious problem in my humble opinion...

reply to post by Akragon

Consider this:

Jesus, Philo of Alexandria, and Paul were contemporaries, alive at the same time.

All of them Hellenized Jews, all spoke Greek.

The Gospel of Matthew has an obviously concocted biography of Jesus, in order to force him into a Palestinian Jewish mold "according to the scriptures". Nazareth at the time was a cemetery and clay pit (potters field) Not likely that he lived there. Why is he called "of Nazareth? Maybe he was buried there rather than Judas.

There's one hint in Matthew, he came from Egypt. What if he was born in Egypt. What if he grew up in Egypt. What if he knew the teachings of Philo of Alexandria, before he went to Galilee? He would have known damn well that Judaism was not monotheistic.

Paul was a Pharisee, the people who later became the Rabbinical sages who wrote the Talmud. Paul would have known damn well that Judaism was not monotheistic.

Should we hate Paul because he considered Jesus to be a god? Hell no! Jesus is a god so much greater than Yahweh that there is no comparison!

Somebody doesn't like that. Not one bit. Maybe the character who goes by the title "Jealous"?

reply to post by pthena


I'm not sure how you being Paul would matter?

You didn't write over half of the NT in this life did you?

reply to post by pthena


I disagree with the OT just as much as I disagree with Paul's epistles. The OT god was the "devil" in my opinion, so no, I do not "want" people to throw out the NT and keep the old. All I'm saying is that Jesus' words are all that matter, excluding everything else.

I know exactly what's going on in the world today, which is why I oppose any of the Abrahamic religions. I believe they are a huge part of why we are in this situation today. People do not follow Jesus' teachings as they should because they are overshadowed by what Paul wrote with his "free pass" concept.

As far as I know Paul did not oppose Judaism, since he quoted the OT on numerous occasions as a basis for his message.

reply to post by pthena


Paul's letters molded Jesus "according to scripture" as well. He heavily relied on the OT to promote Jesus as the messiah prophesied.

Your comment about Nazareth being a potter's field is interesting too. I think a lot of Jesus' story was actually made up and uses symbolism. Potters mold the clay into any form they wish, Jesus being born in a potter's field points toward his life being molded and formed into a certain "shape" in order to fit him into the OT prophecies. Paul was a huge part of that molding.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Jesus being born in a potter's field

Obviously, you pay close attention to what you read.

If you think that I wrote anything like that, then it's obvious also that you'll never understand Paul.

Paul was a huge part of that molding

If you had actually read Paul, you would have noticed how almost everywhere he went, there were already Christians there. He did not invent Christianity. That is an agreed upon Jewish/Islamic propaganda, designed to discredit all Christianity which does not fit the rabbi approved format.

Slandering Paul is the new socially accepted past-time.



Here's a tragic story for you:

After Jesus died, a man went all the way to Rome to petition the Roman Senate to have Jesus officially apotheosized. They blew him off.

If the Senate had recognized Jesus as one of the gods among gods, things would have been much different.

Instead, recognition did not come until after the Gnostics and Marcionites had been suppressed, and some Trinity was invented that had Jesus subordinate to Yahweh.

Do you think Christianity was violent because of Jesus being in the Trinity or because of Yahweh being in the Trinity?

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Mark 12
24 Jesus replied, “Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God? 25 When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 26 Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”

---Full context is important. Here, Jesus is speaking of the relationship between God and Moses. In this, there is a mystery revealed in 1 Corinthians 10. Here is the thread: Hidden Mystery of Moses... God gives life and is the Spirit aspect across the Jordan. There are two creations. The World to come is Genesis 1 and the material world is Genesis 2. Genesis 1 is Elohim and Genesis 2 is the Lord. When we die, there is no more connection to God. The information (WORD) has returned to the dust. This is what a resurrection is. It is the Book of Life bringing the person back again. Christ is the WORD that created Genesis 2 and is the one that brings back the dead so that in Him, we return to God.

Romans 14
7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Here, we belong to the Lord and will return to God. There is a difference between the two. Christ is both Lord of Life and Death, but God allows the parallel copy of Heaven so that new life can be brought to Him in HIS presence. Why? So that God can be All in All from the process.

1 Corinthians 15

20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

---Here, you see the purpose. After this, you see the point of Christ being the LORD of the process for BOTH life and death.

29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31 I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,

“Let us eat and drink,
for tomorrow we die.”[d]
33 Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character.”[e] 34 Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.

WHO did God entrust the second creation to? Mankind. Christ is the heel of the loaf, with the loaf being the slices (Men). We, who are many, are one loaf.

1 Corinthians 10

17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

Christ is the ONE loaf from the father. He is the Soul that and seal that forms the clay. He is Adam on both sides of the loaf (HEEL).

Genesis 3

15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

Until this is complete and the enemies are made his footstool (put all his enemies under his feet.), then Adam is not finished with his work here on Earth.

1 Corinthians 15

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

Do you see ADAM on both sides of the loaf?

Job 19

25 I know that my redeemer[c] lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.[d]
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet[e] in[f] my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!
28 “If you say, ‘How we will hound him,
since the root of the trouble lies in him,[g]’
29 you should fear the sword yourselves;
for wrath will bring punishment by the sword,
and then you will know that there is judgment.

Job knew the error was in Adam and that Adam would redeem mankind back to God. Adam ONE to ADAM LAST is Christ, the redeemer. Paul revealed the mystery to us. You are incorrect in saying that Paul is not part of the process. There are no contradictions or paradoxes between OT and NT, including Paul's unique place in this story.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by pthena

 

There was a time I thought of the NT as one book and the old another...

I didn't even consider the issue until I came here...

When "Christians" refute Christ's words with Paul...

There's a serious problem in my humble opinion...

The problem is only one of perspective. Consider my post above. Who was entrusted with the mystery of Christ as the ONE soul of mankind? Once you understand that the ONE soul is the ocean and we are the dew, you cannot understand what Paul understood. Apart from Paul, we have no clue. With Paul, we understand that we are the body of Christ, involved with Him in the Spirit, so that that the one soul being raised (The Son) can be brought back as the prodigal son returning to the Father. Again, it's a hidden mystery. Job 19 is a key to knowing that we were cast out of paradise so that we could return. ALL OF US! We are the ones fallen and this place is a refinery. Christ was sacrificed here so that we could rise back with HIM.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Jesus mentioning the "word" dead does not mean he was saying he was the god of those who are dead.

The "word" dead?
He was not reading a list of words that start with D.
He was talking about dead people, something you do not think exists.
Jesus was saying that, to God, everyone is alive.
To us, a lot of people are dead.
We can not ourselves raise people from the dead.
God can, so to Him, they are all potentially "alive".

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

What do you mean by Paul "starting" Jesus? Do You mean he created him or something else?

Not out of nothing.
In Luke, you have these disciples who are depressed because the person they thought was going to be the Messiah was killed.
Then they realized that he was somehow still alive, and then go all excited.
I think this could be a metaphor for what happened through Paul, with his seeing the risen Jesus.
What I meant earlier was Paul was preaching and writing about Jesus before the Gospels were written.
I think that the wrters of the synoptics were influenced by Paul's teachings.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by pthena

 

There was a time I thought of the NT as one book and the old another...

I didn't even consider the issue until I came here...

When "Christians" refute Christ's words with Paul...

There's a serious problem in my humble opinion...

You're right. It means that there aren't enough Christians who read or understand their Bible and are more willing to listen to heretics on the internet instead. A similar problem that Jesus faced with the Jews when he said...

Mark 12:24

24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

That's just one of the several instances when Jesus accused them of not knowing or understanding what had already been written.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

 

Theres better ones then that... but that depends on the translation you prefer...

How about Jesus Thought he was equal to God... when Jesus said he wasn't...

This thread has been a long time coming...

Beware... the battle is about to begin..

Jesus was not equal to God when he was in human form, and he was an alive human being when he said that. Upon his death he was, because they are one in the same.