Was Jesus Christ just a man? Aetheists vs. Christians, Battle Royale

Originally posted by bloodreviara
The problem with answering questions such as this is the
agreement that the story of jesus is true as it is written, i
no more believe the version of the story that is in the bible
than i would stories about how great batman is taken from
a comic book, same exact thing, each is a super hero from
their own era, each has his listed super powers and inspires
others to do good, each has folk lore for how they came to
be, the issue is it starts to sound crazy when either of
the fans of each of those comic books starts to have delusions
that they are actually real or true.

edit on 23-5-2013 by bloodreviara because: (no reason given)

afreekonmen
up,up, and away

Let's try looking at the Bible from a different perspective. What if we tried using the teachings in the Bible, as a guideline for a life of: peace, joy, love, kindness, prosperity, all good things; instead of a book of: condemnation and bashing each other? That IS NOT WHAT THE WORD OF GOD IS ABOUT! It's not about killing each other with our religious beliefs. It's about LOVE! "Love the Creator for what He gave us to enjoy and love our neighbor who has been made in the Creator's image and likeness. When you "love" someone, you don't envy what they have; you don't hate them, without reason; you don't steal from them; or destroy their homes, property, family and lives. You give to them. You lend a helping hand. You treat them LIKE YOURSELF and you treat them like you want to be treated. If we apply God's principles, He guarantees they will produce a good harvest in our lives. If you're broke, give, and let God reward you for your giving. If you need help with something, help someone else; and let God bless your work, for your kindness. Stop living in this world's principles of: me, me, me; wondering why, why, why; when things go wrong! "For God so loved the world........HE GAVE!" He gave 1 seed and look how many sons and daughters He got in return. Get the idea?????? Learn the principles and APPLY THEM!

Indeed he was just a really awesome dude.

I only half agree with the jews.

Preamble: I am a Christian theist.

With that out of the way I have to say that in my humble opinion in order to understand the Christian ethos one MUST understand the greater narrative and scale down from there.

If someone does not understand the necessity of Christ (on so so many levels) then one will never understand the more nuanced truths in Scripture.

I'm told I'm arrogant for believing something to be true and in the same breath asked to provide evidence. Amazing.

Here's to seeking truth.

Regards,

FTE

double post ... I swear it wasn't user error

A real Atheist would ignore the argument because it is irrelevant.

But Atheists who doubt inside that their belief is correct and fear what could be the truth will try to disprove Christianity or God or whatever to make them 'feel' better about their decision.

So any Atheists commenting here in a way that they are desperate to 'disprove' God are not true Atheists but ones like described above.

reply to post by FollowTheWhiteRabbit

You badly want to believe the Bible isn't true

No sir. I badly want people to stop believing in fantasies, magic, and evil biblical gods.

Originally posted by FollowTheWhiteRabbit
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Please show me the errors and contradictions in the Bible to support your claims. I'd love to work on my spiritual muscles and rip them apart.

The biggest flaw is this: In the old testament God gave man the commandment of Thou shalt not kill. This is a commandment. A LAW that was supposedly etched in stone. At that time he might as well have said to man, "But, hey, I will reward all of you if you beat my son bloody in the NT and then murder him."

Go ahead and justify this all you want. Make it sound rational to you, even though it would sound like disorganized schizophrenia to any shrink.

Disorganized Schizophrenia: Having beliefs not based on reality (delusions)

reply to post by EnochWasRight

When viewing nature, we see laws that can be observed. When viewing quantum physics, the laws are not yet understood because they do not follow predictable patterns. You are implying the same of the Bible, yet denying it is there as an evident truth. You can reasonably imply this of most any book, but not the Bible. It holds the higher axiom that unifies our lower axioms. Until we get past this with an explanation, it simply follows the same laws as the hidden world we can only imply is there. It has an opposite.

To claim that the illogical words and plots within the bible (written by ignorant men) will one day become logical is backward thinking. When I say backward what I mean is all through history we have been proving just the opposite. The more we learn, the less logical religion and its texts becomes.

There was no Adam and Eve as portrayed in the bible. No Garden of Eden. No serpent. No bloodline of begats that go from Adam to Jesus. No world flood. No Exodus. No manna magically fell from the sky for forty years while a nation of people wandered aimlessly through the desert. No god ever ordered the annihilation of the Canaanites.

No one ever walked on water. No, neither Lazarus or Jesus ever rose from the dead after rotting for three days in a tomb. No, the saints did not rise from the dead to roam the city at the time of Jesus' crucifixion. No, Jesus did not heal the sick and the blind.

These stories are pure fiction, and it is very sad that grown adults have to be told this.

reply to post by FollowTheWhiteRabbit

if Jesus had so much followers among the Israel tribe, then how could the corrupted leader of Israel kill him ! while people just watching at them.
Jesus was alone and he is still alone !!
moreover how could a God be killed. or walk in the streets or being born by Mary or ..... !!!!! these are contrary to teachings of Jesus. most of Gospels and Torah has no sign that a human can be a God. this is a paradox.

Was Jesus Christ just a man???

No. He was also a Carpenter.

reply to post by interupt42

IMO Atheist and Religious people have something in common. That is faith. The atheist can use logic and reason to conclude the unlikely existence of a GOD . However in the end, there is no factual evidence to denounce or prove that God exists or doesn't exists, so it boils down to faith (either you believe or don't believe.)

hm...my logic says differently. Although I can not prove God doesn't exist...far more revealing is the fact that I can not prove he exists either, but since it's such a widespread belief, one should really be able to prove it.

It's like a multiple choice question...I'm sure we've all done from time to time. You have a question and offered multiple choice, of which you can't claim either one. Than you go by process of elimination, and choose what is left.

so you have these choices:

1. God is with us, he guides us, loves us and he created us. Although we never see him or hear him. Even though no one can point to him. No one knows his name or his whereabouts. I don't have proof or direct knowledge of him...I just have faith that he is.

2. Religious God is a made up fictional character, that exists only in the minds of people.


Now If you're an atheist...you need no faith here to choose. It's not about faith. I don't need to prove the God doesn't exist. Proof enough is that there is no proof otherwise.

I think that no atheist is a firm believer in no God theory...it's just that all evidence points to it. I for one would gladly switch sides if that evidence ever becomes available, because I want to believe in the truth...whatever that truth is. No preference or grudge here.

reply to post by Spawn2001


Who ever heard of start'in a rumble without me ?



reply to post by jiggerj

No sir. I badly want people to stop believing in fantasies, magic, and evil biblical gods.

Really Jigger , that's what you want ? Can you tell me why it even matters to you ?
I suppose. I should just be glad that I'm lucky enough to know, the one person that mankind
should, everyone of us, model our beliefs after and see such things, just the way you do ?
Excuse me Jigger, if I don't fall in line and join the large procession of those that believe in
magic shows, that happen without a magician. And when asked how could this be ? The answer
always amounts to, well because it's magic. I'd say the odds of you being the one who has it all
figured out. Are far less than there actually being an invisible spaghetti monster.
And if you're not righteous Jigger ? Than who is ?

reply to post by Akragon

IF Jesus was just a man... Does it change the message he gave us?

No, it really doesn't. But... it sure puts a different spin on some of the horrors that have been wrought upon the earth in his name and in the name of god.

To each their own, that's how I feel about it, as long as your beliefs don't try to restrict mine, or worse, "convert me" I really don't care who you worship and how you do it. That's the wonderful thing about human beings, with the exception maybe of genetic twins.... we're all unique.

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

When viewing nature, we see laws that can be observed. When viewing quantum physics, the laws are not yet understood because they do not follow predictable patterns. You are implying the same of the Bible, yet denying it is there as an evident truth. You can reasonably imply this of most any book, but not the Bible. It holds the higher axiom that unifies our lower axioms. Until we get past this with an explanation, it simply follows the same laws as the hidden world we can only imply is there. It has an opposite.

To claim that the illogical words and plots within the bible (written by ignorant men) will one day become logical is backward thinking. When I say backward what I mean is all through history we have been proving just the opposite. The more we learn, the less logical religion and its texts becomes.

There was no Adam and Eve as portrayed in the bible. No Garden of Eden. No serpent. No bloodline of begats that go from Adam to Jesus. No world flood. No Exodus. No manna magically fell from the sky for forty years while a nation of people wandered aimlessly through the desert. No god ever ordered the annihilation of the Canaanites.

No one ever walked on water. No, neither Lazarus or Jesus ever rose from the dead after rotting for three days in a tomb. No, the saints did not rise from the dead to roam the city at the time of Jesus' crucifixion. No, Jesus did not heal the sick and the blind.

These stories are pure fiction, and it is very sad that grown adults have to be told this.

edit on 5/23/2013 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

These stories point to what they represent. Symbols carry the true narrative. We originate from what is hidden and what is hidden can only be seen by the heart. A hardened heart sees only the words and surface of the onion. I have peeled back the layers and made it as evident as I can. It's your choice to remain hardened.

Glass and Ceramic - God makes it evident.

Now I'm interested in how several religions before Christ have the same stories that Christ has. Born to a virgin mother on Dec. 25th, 12 disciples, died from crucifixion, blah blah blah, yadda yadda yadda.

Buddha, Krishna, Odysseus, Romulus, Dionysus, Heracles, Zoroaster/Zarathustra, Attis of Phrygia, and Horus all have eerily similar, almost identical stories...

So, I will say a theory that is equally as provable as these...All these virgin mothers were abducted by UFO's and impregnated and each of their offspring held these super alien powers that normal people considered miracles and divine.

And when Jesus was witnessed floating to the heavens, he was really inside a tractor beam, going home. We are all aliens....or created by aliens...

Now prove me wrong.

reply to post by MarioOnTheFly

I think that no atheist is a firm believer in no God theory...it's just that all evidence points to it. I for one would gladly switch sides if that evidence ever becomes available, because I want to believe in the truth...whatever that truth is. No preference or grudge here.

Its sounds that you are agnostic (as I am) and not an atheist Although their are different types of Atheist according to the dictionary, but typically:

atheism = a disbelief in the existence of deity , The doctrine that there is no deity
www.merriam-webster.com...

Proof enough is that there is no proof otherwise.

History has demonstrated that logic incorrectly. In order for that logic to work you would have to know for a fact that you have all the facts in front of you, either-wise you can't deduct in order to come to a conclusion. You can increase or decrease your probability with what you know in front of you but not derive a definite answer.

Our Early ancestors have been proven wrong numerous of times using the lack of proof method. The more we learned about physics,sciences,math,etc we have discovered numerous of times that we were wrong. At one time it was accepted that nothing smaller than atom existed. So far we have been holding to the believe that nothing is faster than light , but that is even in the grey now.


I'm agnostic simply because like I said before, Science nor myself can explain how the first of anything came from nothing? So I simply conclude that their are some things that is obviously beyond our comprehension at this time , so who is to say that some cosmic power (Energy,Collision,GOD,Alien,etc) didn't create us in a lab?

Jesus, the first hippie. Seriously though, I do think he existed, spread his message, and was slain for it. However, I do NOT think he was a deity or the son of one.

His "divinity" was more of an "agreement" than a proselytized truth. It was decided at the Council of Nicaea.

(for those who want to look it up).
en.wikipedia.org... (sure, it's wiki, but it is a good summary)

There was some debate about it, and books were left out of the Bible, etc. that didn't agree with the consensus. So, even many Christians originally didn't go for the whole divinity route of Christ.

Christians and others often debate whether or not Jesus even existed. Indeed, the sources are biased at best, fables at worst. However, I personally think there is enough historical and religious references in other texts to support him being around...but I can't say that same evidence supports him being divine. A good guy, even a savior perhaps? Sure. But, in the end, it all comes down to faith, and that is something you can't argue with using logic, so any effort to do so, is doomed before it fails. Then again, that is by design, as logic has no place in an argument of faith.

reply to post by interupt42

I'm agnostic simply because like I said before, Science nor myself can explain how the first of anything came from nothing?

I always find this idea of "beginning" and "end" rather amusing. From all we have observed, the universe works more in repeating cycles, not beginning and end. So, I see no reason we had to "come" from anything. For all we know, even the Big Bang was simply the start of a new cycle. We could be in the "first" universe, or the 583rd for all we know, or even no number, since it has always been and always will be, like driving in a circle. No start, no end, just relative to the observer.

Originally posted by Gazrok
reply to post by interupt42

 

I'm agnostic simply because like I said before, Science nor myself can explain how the first of anything came from nothing?

I always find this idea of "beginning" and "end" rather amusing. From all we have observed, the universe works more in repeating cycles, not beginning and end. So, I see no reason we had to "come" from anything. For all we know, even the Big Bang was simply the start of a new cycle. We could be in the "first" universe, or the 583rd for all we know, or even no number, since it has always been and always will be, like driving in a circle. No start, no end, just relative to the observer.

This is exactly what I would say is happening!

"Science nor myself can explain how the first of anything came from nothing?"??? How is it logical, then, to assign something to that nothing, that something being God?

And further nonsense, people use that leap of logic to ascribe that "something god" to the same deity in the Old Testament of the Bible and continue to extend that logic to Jesus as being the actual natural son of that god.

Crazy stuff!