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The Minoan White Goddess

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posted on May, 21 2013 @ 06:01 PM
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Hello !

First of all, thank you for the good thread, you raised up my curiosity as the will to answer with the limits of my (perfectionnable) english.

I would like, as some have already underline, that the white skin peoples are realted to royalty. The argument of the blood relation with gods could be considered, but into a political view : as the palatial society were builded, the elite or aristocratie (by the way, some archeologists advances the hypothesis of a self-proclamed elite) needed to legitimate their power.
And can we find a better argument as a filiation with the gods ?

Well, just a point of view. I must admit that I am quite passionate (this curiosity comes with time) with the ancients gods of the early civilisation.
I would like to relate the Minoan Snake Goddess with the Phenician Tanit/Astarté/Ishtar.
The pose is similar, as the role of Mother/Fertility, with the Minoan Goddess.
upload.wikimedia.org...
(Please, note that this particular symbol have some little variations, according to the differents geographical regions)

egodeath.com...

And here another stele of Tanit, ant the autel where she is centred makes me think of your Gates.
www.lessing-photo.com...

The Phenicains were travellers. They surely had contacts with the Minoans, and as you have advanced, one of the best hypothesis councerning the similitudes between the gods and goddess of Mesopotamia, bring us back to the Neolithic Age.
The earlier manifestations of a cult, or at least the worship of a divinity, show us as the apotropaic signifiance of the buried skulls of Aurochs, as Male entity, and the worship of a Feminine Divinity, large, generous, and circle shaped.

www.louvre.fr...

This equivalence, between the Male (often represented horned) and the lunar, and Feminine Goddess find an equivalence in all (and I am a bit reductrice in our case, I don't want to go too far) the Mediterranean and Mesopotamian Region. The Minoan, Minos and the bull, and the White/Snake Goddess, as Isthar/Tanit and Baal phenicians, are juste some extensions, reconfigured with the needs, the hopes, and the cultures where their worship was practice.

Just to finish on the "White Colored' detail of these Goddess, I'll just let you read more about this kind of statues, in marble, representing Goddess with the arm cross under their breasts.

www.louvre.fr...

From the Bronze Age, and in the Cyclades (Yes, i'm Captain Obvious), we can find a little relation I guess.
Out off topic, I find this kind of statue really hypnotic, and the geometrisation of the face is near to abstraction, really modern, for me.

Well, I'll just stop here. Thanks again for the topic, and thank you to take the time to also read my little answer to it.

Have a good day,

J




posted on May, 22 2013 @ 03:56 AM
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reply to post by ipsedixit
 



It seems then to be a worldwide phenomena that from the hunter/gatherer stage of development through to the onset of civilization, were applicable, all cultures understood the role of the bees in establishing pathways and patterns across the face of the Earth, and that they were working to a singular design and purpose.


The common denominator then for me, in what might connect seemingly unconnected cultures developing along similar lines, is not aliens, or a lost advanced civilization...it is the bees.


What the 'bees' are in such a context might of course require further understanding.



reply to post by JuDreamWalker
 



Understanding Minoan presence within Caananite settlements is ongoing;


Tel Kabiri



Aside from the style and colors of the fragments themselves, (closely resembling others found at the site of Knossos in Minoan Crete and on the Cycladic island of Santorini or ancient Thera, home to the ruins of Minoan Akrotiri), Cline emphasizes trademark Aegean or Minoan processes of production that are not normally found at typical ancient Canaanite sites. "This technique of painting on a plaster wall while it is still wet is an Aegean technique," he maintains. "It is rarely found in the ancient Near East where they typically painted after the plaster was dry. Secondly, they applied a technique of using strings to help in the painting process. They took strings and just tightened them and, upon contacting the wet plaster, created a perfectly straight line. We have evidence of that in plaster. Another technique was to take a string and dip it in, for example, red paint, and then tighten it quickly against a surface to make a perfectly straight line. And we have found evidence of that here." Another Aegean technique seen in Kabri was the use of knife marks to delineate the border of painted bands.




As you indicated, the cult of the Bee Goddess had developed in tandem with that of the horned bull from the onset of the Neolithic, here i concentrate on the Goddess function;

www.abovetopsecret.com...


But here the concern is also very much with the Bull of Heaven, in connection with the Gates of the Horizon


www.abovetopsecret.com...


Its all been a little scatological, but i think i can make a clear case now for the interconnectivity of bees, bulls and serpents in the Near East and Aegean


You're right with regards to Tanit being the equivalent of the Minoan serpent Goddess;


edit on 22-5-2013 by Kantzveldt because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 22 2013 @ 04:14 AM
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Originally posted by Kantzveldt
There is also the concern with collecting the golden saffron, which is commonly seen in Indo-European tradition as related to the sun, fire. gold, and this light is that which illuminates the moon, so in Minoan tradition the Goddesses can be seen in conjunction with both the sun and the moon...all bases covered.


The White Goddess, or rather the feminine representation of the Moon, is broken down into seperate aspects relational to the complexity of society. So, in the later Neolithic she has not only the White, whole form, and the Black, which carried through from the Paleolithic, but also the Green and Yellow forms, which were integral to the rituals surrounding the success of agricultural practices. The particular characteristics of the Green and Yellow forms of the Goddess regionally, tend to be tied to the environment and local economy.

While Graves followed the White Goddess as muse, he was somewhat lacking given that he wrote at a time when the very idea of feminine knowledge was considered ludicrious, we have, thankfully, since moved on from then, if slowly, and we are now better able to understand the basis of the associated rituals and the practical purposes that they once held.

One key factor in doing this, is to understand that these aspects of the cosmological feminine were anthropomorphised and assumed idealised forms in artistic expressions much, much later. In early to mid Neolithic representations the Round/Circle and the Crescent were sufficient visualisations of the power that they wished to revere and celebrate.


edit on 22-5-2013 by KilgoreTrout because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 22 2013 @ 05:24 AM
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reply to post by Kantzveldt
 

Okay, excellent thread, as usual, but I had to say thanks for the Pixies... so thanks... and lot's of other stuff as the subject fascinates me ... and the bees, the bees explanation in the other thread was novel ... but it's early late and I'd not say what is meant but thanks for the Pixies



posted on May, 22 2013 @ 08:05 AM
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Originally posted by Kantzveldt
reply to post by ipsedixit
 



It seems then to be a worldwide phenomena that from the hunter/gatherer stage of development through to the onset of civilization, were applicable, all cultures understood the role of the bees in establishing pathways and patterns across the face of the Earth, and that they were working to a singular design and purpose.


Bees moving from flower to flower would have been a familiar image pattern to humans from the begining. Flowers are associated with nectar and with love and desire and with the mind.


The common denominator then for me, in what might connect seemingly unconnected cultures developing along similar lines, is not aliens, or a lost advanced civilization...it is the bees.


I would agree, but I would expand it to include all the tools in the spiritual toolbox. The omphalos and its correspondents (a loaded word) in different spiritual traditions are also very important. All of the totems are important, birds particularly.


What the 'bees' are in such a context might of course require further understanding.


Very true.

By the way, the piles of cubes in this Tibetan design are "buntsangs" or bees' nests.

photo.net...


edit on 22-5-2013 by ipsedixit because: (no reason given)
edit on 22-5-2013 by ipsedixit because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 22 2013 @ 08:11 AM
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Originally posted by Kantzveldt
reply to post by ipsedixit
 


It seems then to be a worldwide phenomena that from the hunter/gatherer stage of development through to the onset of civilization, were applicable, all cultures understood the role of the bees in establishing pathways and patterns across the face of the Earth, and that they were working to a singular design and purpose.


I think you're making a huge and unevidenced leap here, particularly when you're bringing in "worldwide" since that also includes the Inuit (Eskimos) and Native Americans (the bees you are thinking of are EUROPEAN bees... not the bees of other areas of the world), etc. I think that if you look closely at culture you will notice that not all cultures that had bees were aware of their flight (they are hard to spot and fly faster than many humans can run.)



posted on May, 22 2013 @ 08:18 AM
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Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by Kantzveldt
There is also the concern with collecting the golden saffron, which is commonly seen in Indo-European tradition as related to the sun, fire. gold, and this light is that which illuminates the moon, so in Minoan tradition the Goddesses can be seen in conjunction with both the sun and the moon...all bases covered.


The White Goddess, or rather the feminine representation of the Moon, is broken down into seperate aspects relational to the complexity of society. So, in the later Neolithic she has not only the White, whole form, and the Black, which carried through from the Paleolithic, but also the Green and Yellow forms, which were integral to the rituals surrounding the success of agricultural practices. The particular characteristics of the Green and Yellow forms of the Goddess regionally, tend to be tied to the environment and local economy.


When I was young, I read The White Goddess -- it wasn't until much later when I encountered archaeology and folklore (as an academic subject) that I revisited it and said "WHAT THE HECK?" because Graves' evidence turned out to be largely made up by himself.

There's a good and brief review of the issues by Wikipedia:

Graves's value as a poet aside, flaws in his scholarship such as poor philology, use of inadequate texts and out-dated archaeology have been criticised. Some scholars, particularly archaeologists, historians and folklorists have not received the work favourably. Graves was disappointed that his work was "loudly ignored" by many Celtic scholars; however, it was accepted as history by many non-scholarly readers and, according to Ronald Hutton, The White Goddess remains a major source of confusion about the ancient Celts and influences many un-scholarly views of Celtic paganism. Hilda Ellis Davidson criticized Graves as having "misled many innocent readers with his eloquent but deceptive statements about a nebulous goddess in early Celtic literature", and stated that he was "no authority" on the subject matter he presented. While Graves made the association between Goddesses and the moon appear "natural," it was not so to the Celts or some other ancient peoples.

source: en.wikipedia.org...


It's a great read, really it is. But when you start looking at his sources, it's really disappointing.



posted on May, 22 2013 @ 08:43 AM
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I disagree with Byrd about the bees but I tend to agree with him about Robert Graves, who was a much better literary man than ethnologist.

Here is a story involving a bee from Inuit culture. It is a very significant story and serves to make an important point about the importance of bees to ancient cultures.

This story would be well understood from Siberia to the Middle East, to the Carribean, to Brazil, to Tibet , to the great plains of the United States.

www.deliceboreal.com...


Igutsaq (The Woman Who Adopted a Bumblebee)

There once was a woman named Igutsalik who adopted a bumblebee. The adopted bee was named Igutsaq, in honour of its mother by adoption Igutsalik. Igutsalik was Igustsaq’s sauniq. [Sauniq is the Inuttitut word for namesake.]

The story goes that Igutsalik had a friend from Kangirsujuaq. Her name was Qattaaq.

Qattaaq helped her friend Igutsalik by threading beads. Together, Qataaq and Igutsalik decorated a tiny sack. The sack was just exactly small enough to fit a big bumblebee.

Artist: Elisapee Inukpuk

Qattaaq did not know why she was beading a tiny sack. Qattaaq did not know for whom she was beading a tiny sack. But nonetheless Qattaaq helped to make a beautifully beaded sack.

Igutsalik did not tell Qattaaq why she was beading a sack. Igutsalik did not tell Qattaaq for whom she was beading a sack. But nonetheless she let her friend Qattaaq help to make a beautifully beaded sack.

And so it happened that Qattaaq did not know that she had made a beautiful outfit for a large adopted bee named Igutsaq.

Until one day… Qattaaq found out that the beautifully beaded sack was used as clothing by a bumblebee named Igutsaq. And Qattaaq became very, very sick.

Afterword

It is not known how Igutsaq was fed or what Igutsaq ate. All that is known is that Igutsaq was said to be a very big bumblebee.

edit on 22-5-2013 by ipsedixit because: (no reason given)
edit on 22-5-2013 by ipsedixit because: (no reason given)
edit on 22-5-2013 by ipsedixit because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 22 2013 @ 09:02 AM
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reply to post by Byrd
 



The Inuit have the Creatrix, Igutsaqjuaq – Big Bee Woman. It is not known how Igutsaq was fed or what Igutsaq ate. All that is known is that Igutsaq was said to be a very big bumblebee.


Igutasq


www.unipka.ca...



Bee shamanism was a very important aspect of North American native practise, the Coso rock carvings depict bee shaman or Deities,





I understand this from considering the identical and still practised Australian aboriginal designs.


www.abovetopsecret.com...



In Central America the colour coding given to the four quarters of the world was based upon the bees;



The red wild bees are in the east. A large red blossom is their cup. The red Plumeria is their flower.

The white wild bees are in the north. The white pach¢ais their flower. A large white blossom is their cup.

The black wild bees are in the west. The black laurel flower is their flower. A large black blossom is their cup.

The yellow wild bees are in the south. A large yellow blossom is their cup . . . is their flower.




So that there are different types of bee was taken into account.


This underlying all important role of the bee shouldn't be so surprising as they pollinate the plants upon which life on the land depends.




reply to post by ipsedixit
 



Yes in Australian lore the Bee Deity is the pathfinder following first creation, connecting all areas to the central hive, as knowing all ways also the guide into the underworld, the bridge between the Earthly realm and the Spiritual
edit on 22-5-2013 by Kantzveldt because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 22 2013 @ 09:15 AM
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Originally posted by Kantzveldt

This underlying all important role of the bee shouldn't be so surprising as they pollinate the plants upon which life on the land depends.

reply to post by ipsedixit
 


Yes in Australian lore the Bee Deity is the pathfinder following first creation, connecting all areas to the central hive, as knowing all ways also the guide into the underworld, the bridge between the Earthly realm and the Spiritual


This is very important.

Propagation, pollination, flowers, the mind, birth, the embodiment of a spirit, death, the disembodiment of a spirit and the whole thing moving in a cycle. The bee is a very central emblem of these processes.



posted on May, 22 2013 @ 10:08 AM
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reply to post by ipsedixit
 



A funny story is that when i was younger we lived next door to someone who i always thought of as 'The Bee Man' without really understanding why, and i formed appropriate scary mental images of this hybrid lurking next door.

Later i learned that as it turns out he was the local fence, and all criminal activity began and ended at his house, that the criminal bees with the sticky fingers would go pilfering here and there then return to this hive of activity, as we lived next door and were on good terms this constituted as being connected to the hive, so the criminal bees had to beat a path away from our door.

By night he was a DJ at the local underworld nightclub and all the criminal bees danced to his tunes...i always knew i was right.



posted on May, 22 2013 @ 10:17 AM
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Originally posted by Kantzveldt
reply to post by ipsedixit
 

A funny story is that when i was younger we lived next door to someone who i always thought of as 'The Bee Man' without really understanding why, and i formed appropriate scary mental images of this hybrid lurking next door.

Later i learned that as it turns out he was the local fence, and all criminal activity began and ended at his house, that the criminal bees with the sticky fingers would go pilfering here and there then return to this hive of activity, as we lived next door and were on good terms this constituted as being connected to the hive, so the criminal bees had to beat a path away from our door.

By night he was a DJ at the local underworld nightclub and all the criminal bees danced to his tunes...i always knew i was right.


There is so much in that story that is related to a secret spiritual world. The story could have come directly from Haiti without changing a word.

Certain criminals are very feral in the sense of psychic, like animals. I think that some of the "old mysteries" may have been preserved in the milieu of organized crime in various parts of the world. There is a strong connection between what might be called the martial arts of spirituality and criminal activities.

I think the omphalos is connected to organized crime in Greece. Organized crime, of course, is also known as the underworld.

A lot of the "old beliefs" were criminalized by the mainstream. That's when the big crossover of light into darkness took place, I think, and deep knowledge became the property of parts of the criminal "underworld".
edit on 22-5-2013 by ipsedixit because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 22 2013 @ 03:33 PM
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Originally posted by Byrd
It's a great read, really it is. But when you start looking at his sources, it's really disappointing.


It is what it is, which is why I pointed out that it is really more of a search for muse on Graves part. I possibly approached it differently to you, the vast majority of the sources Graves used are literary (made up, though not necessarily by his imagination, but the creative minds of others), and that is where I considered it to be placed, academically, as literary analysis, and as such it has some uses, which is what I was trying to communicate in the context of this thread. Graves followed a very, very long line of poets, writers and artists who have sought to idealise, romanticise, and humanise natural phenomenon, in this case, those elements that were once deemed under the 'power' of the cosmologically feminine.

While Graves may not be a viable historical source, the practice of Moon veneration was, almost undoubtably, a significant aspect of ritualistic beliefs and practical application, and given that those practices are being found linked with the earliest farmers that the anthropomorphised depictions of White Goddesses are remnants of those rituals and practices. The work of Aubrey Burl, has in recent years, made huge in roads into our understanding of the role stone circles played socially, among others, and while there are still many questions, biology and physics confirm that the role of the Moon is of great significance to us both in the micro and the macro. There is also sufficient evidence to suggest that Neolithic women, particularly in the spheres of midwifery, utilised lunar calendars, knowledge that, given our biology, must have been integral to our success as a species.

So while Graves didn't quite get there due to his own agenda and the mind set of the times in general, he was barking up the right tree in the general sense. But as I said, it is what it is.



posted on May, 22 2013 @ 03:39 PM
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Originally posted by Kantzveldt
reply to post by Byrd
 



The Inuit have the Creatrix, Igutsaqjuaq – Big Bee Woman. It is not known how Igutsaq was fed or what Igutsaq ate. All that is known is that Igutsaq was said to be a very big bumblebee.


Point taken, and the bumblebee shamans are quite interesting. I'm going to have to go look those up!

I learn new things on ATS all the time.


However, I still feel the leaps you are making by connecting cultures via one symbol are simply interesting coincidences due to environment and nothing else. It ignores other evidence for connections (language) and space and time and geography to connect symbols that may not have the same meaning to the two groups of people.



posted on May, 22 2013 @ 06:06 PM
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Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by Kantzveldt
reply to post by Byrd
 



The Inuit have the Creatrix, Igutsaqjuaq – Big Bee Woman. It is not known how Igutsaq was fed or what Igutsaq ate. All that is known is that Igutsaq was said to be a very big bumblebee.


Point taken, and the bumblebee shamans are quite interesting. I'm going to have to go look those up!

I learn new things on ATS all the time.


However, I still feel the leaps you are making by connecting cultures via one symbol are simply interesting coincidences due to environment and nothing else. It ignores other evidence for connections (language) and space and time and geography to connect symbols that may not have the same meaning to the two groups of people.


Personally I think those leaps are not taken enough by "The Establishment" more often then not they have become monolithic in their thinking. Much like Columbus discovering an inhabited continent, the History books are strewn with fallacies yet promoted educationally as factual. Occam's razor rarely seems to be applied to the symbology that is often times obviously at the root of all languages and cultures.
edit on 22-5-2013 by abeverage because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 09:14 AM
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Originally posted by abeverage
Personally I think those leaps are not taken enough by "The Establishment" more often then not they have become monolithic in their thinking. Much like Columbus discovering an inhabited continent, the History books are strewn with fallacies yet promoted educationally as factual. Occam's razor rarely seems to be applied to the symbology that is often times obviously at the root of all languages and cultures.


There's two paradigms going on:

First, history books HAVE to be simple. The amount of information is simply too complex... and at the end, the information in history texts depends on what the PUBLISHER wants you to see (I've written a chapter for a textbook, so I have some experience with this.) And school districts buy from whatever publisher the School Board approves (we have some bloody battles here in Texas over science textbooks. Some of the choices are VERY bad.)

Secondly, anthropologists are doing LESS "imaginative leaps" these days than in the early days. That's true, but it's because they have in the past gone out and rhapsodized all their theories, only to have later information come out and make them look like dolts. In my university classes, we were warned heavily against using our "modern views" (which are very nation-centric and culture-centric) in interpreting ancient lives and symbols -- or even modern tribal people. This kind of "we will tell you what your symbols mean" scholarship has given anthropology a VERY bad name among aboriginal people across the globe. They hated the "big patronizing brother" tactics and hate it when the modern world makes things from their culture (like the Blue Star Kachina) into things that they're not ("Blue Star Kachina is actually Nibiru which is coming to our solar system in 2012"... that mangling of Hopi culture has angered a lot of real Hopi elders.)

This is violated all the time on ATS... but y'all aren't university trained scientists and you don't have to actually stand up and prove your case to a field of experts on the subject matter. It is, however, something I have to be very careful about because I do present papers on anthropology and related subjects and if I make silly logic leaps in front of the rest of my peers, the results aren't pretty.



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 01:12 PM
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This is violated all the time on ATS... but y'all aren't university trained scientists and you don't have to actually stand up and prove your case to a field of experts on the subject matter. It is, however, something I have to be very careful about because I do present papers on anthropology and related subjects and if I make silly logic leaps in front of the rest of my peers, the results aren't pretty.


Ok I will take a little offense to this because I am actually a computer Science graduate, an expert in my field, and I am currently called upon by others in my field for inovations in the work that I do. But given the context of anthropology (that I only have an amateur interest or fascination in) I will discard my offense and call it even.
edit on 23-5-2013 by abeverage because: (no reason given)





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