Financial Privacy Under Fire: DHS Freezes Bitcoin Money Transfers

I'm a little bit confused as to just how DHS has jurisdiction in this matter? Shouldn't it be an FBI or Treasury Dept. case? DHS is supposed to be fighting terrorists.

Originally posted by Snsoc
I'm a little bit confused as to just how DHS has jurisdiction in this matter? Shouldn't it be an FBI or Treasury Dept. case? DHS is supposed to be fighting terrorists.

you're quite right, but accusing people of terrorism, or funding terrorism, makes good propaganda. i'm not sure if that is what they'll do, but at this point the government isn't accountable to anyone.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
This would be why I never touched bitcoin in any way that matters...for anything that matters. New generations can make a great case for money/currency or whatever someone wants to call this, that doesn't exist and has no physical form.

In the end? It's still a construct with no form...hence no meaning ...hence no value. Everything else is perceptions and faith of value. Not unlike our real money. At least real money still gives me paper to show I'm supposed to have some.

I feel sorry for people who got burned on this....but what did they expect? The whole point was some rebellious notion of a currency beyond reach of the authorities? Well.. That was a foolish belief that was going to be crushed eventually. I just hope the reality didn't come TOO painfully for everyone involved.

edit on 15-5-2013 by Wrabbit2000 because: (no reason given)

I've seen many of your posts, and I value them all. You are a wise member here

Nonetheless, our views I think are much different (that is okay, after all, that is the magic that stimulates us all - diversity).


Anyway, I think bitcoins were an exercise in virtual economy. To think that these exercises wouldn't be attempted, and gain momentum quickly, I think is unfortunate. This was BOUND to happen, just as you say it was bound to be crushed by the mighty federal government.

Ultimately, there are many reasons why this was crushed by the government.....The Silk Road being one. I will say this though....just as Napster became another p2p client, like Kazaa, and so on, and although efforts were made to stop it.....we eventually got Torrent, pirate bay, etc......bitcoins are a precursor to the same thing.

You will never stop media from being free. The government and corporations will try, but it wont work

Likewise, this "exercise" was successful. The government trying to sabotage it will only be temporary

There is something much much bigger than bitcoin coming and I cannot wait to see it in action.
Bitcoin is only chicken change but a good start and it will be up and running again quickly.

reply to post by MaxSteiner


If by paper money you mean Fiat Currency I assumed it would be understood that it would be in the same hold as Bitcoins when the ship went down....My Bad!

Hmm... will Bitcoin usage be driven underground? That's kind of what I see happening. I see an internet with different layers built on top of one another... all can be accessed, just with the right guide.

reply to post by minkmouse


No, not all countries operate a fiat currency, some paper money is actually pegged against gold and silver,
Just as useless when the SHTF though.

(Don't want to blow anyones mind too much, but Gold and Silver is going to be equally useless if the "event" is so bad that all of the internet is taken off line )

It seems that at least lacrimoniousfinale did not. So, I explained it. If you already knew this, than please ignore.

Thanks, but I was already well aware of how a fiat currency works. All you have done is avoid explaining how a dollar bill in your pocket is a liability. A worthless piece of paper might not be much of an asset, but that doesn't make it a liability.

Do you guys really think there is a business group out there that really care about you? I mean come on...Hey I got this make believe only good on the internet money, if you buy it from me you can stick it to the man....Oh sorry the man took all the fake currency that you paid "real money" for....Guess who loses out on this deal, it sure isnt the company that has your real money, they dont lose. Its you in the end as usual. Pretty convenient transaction Id say. And instead of you being mad at the company that really ripped you off, you blame it on the government. The gov have done plenty to be mad at for sure, but dont be dumb enough to fall for this scam.

And dont believe for a second if a true threat was on the web, they wont take and do what they want no matter where it resides.The crap they let stay online is not worth their time and them showing how much power they really have over the web is not the move to make just yet.

reply to post by DYepes

Did anyone actually read the article that the op, which I dont believe even read the article fully, posted?

I certainly did, did you?

Just because your perceived assumption of our interpretation does not suit yours does not mean we did not read the article.

Originally posted by lacrimoniousfinale

It seems that at least lacrimoniousfinale did not. So, I explained it. If you already knew this, than please ignore.

Thanks, but I was already well aware of how a fiat currency works. All you have done is avoid explaining how a dollar bill in your pocket is a liability. A worthless piece of paper might not be much of an asset, but that doesn't make it a liability.

Ah, well, okay, all of you that already know (of course you do) - ignore this post.

Now, then, lacrimoniousfinale, now we got rid of all the rest of ATS: legal liability is the legal bound obligation to pay debts. At least, according to Wikipedia.

What is 'debt' then, you might ask. According to Wikipedia again it is "an obligation owed by one party (the debtor) to a second party, the creditor; usually this refers to assets granted by the creditor to the debtor [...]".

So, pull these definitions together and then a liability becomes: the legal bound obligation to pay an obligation owed by one party (the debtor) to a second party, the creditor.

When it comes to money, that 'creditor' is our Government and you are the 'debtor'. Yes, you read that correctly: you are in debt. You did not want to, but you are. Because the creditor keeps on issueing money that has not yet been worked for, that has not been exchanged for real value (yet). That money is used to pay for various nice things like schools, roads, the military, the police and other stuff that is said to be necessary to run society, including numerous grey or black projects. Well, at least partially, as the creditor, to add insult to injury, also make you pay taxes.

In fact, you did not create these debts personally, but they are created for you by your Government. And because you are part of society and you enjoy its fruits (don't you), you are legally bound to work your tail off to repay that debt too. You choose the Government, they choose the system, you are hence bound to adhere to it. Or leave your country, only to find out that you are now in debt again, the creditor changed, the amount changed, but that's it.

Recap: the modern money system involves printing worthless pieces of paper that express that you are in debt. And you are liable for it you are legally bound to exchange that piece of worthless paper against real value.

Wikipedia, on the topic of 'Fiat money': Fiat money or fiat currency is money whose value is not derived from any intrinsic value or guarantee that it can be converted into a valuable commodity (such as gold). Instead, it has value only by government order (fiat). Usually, the government declares the fiat currency (typically notes and coins from a central bank, such as the Federal Reserve System in the U.S.) to be legal tender, making it unlawful to not accept the fiat currency as a means of repayment for all debts, public and private.

Hope it's clear. As you were, carry on.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

I agree with what Wrabbit said-at least with paper money,you have tangible proof in your hand as to what you own,moneywise.For as far as paper money will go/take you.My personal thoughts are:invest your money in a good all-terrain vehicle,a small property Far off the beaten track,sink a borehole/well for water,guns+ammo,and pile up stocks of canned/dehydrated food+medical supplies.Do not rely on investing in things that cannot be used (or bartered for items) to eat+drink,defend yourself,gas to keep you mobile and treat a wounded person.I think this should be your foremost investments.Another good investment is of an intangible nature-the mindset of the nomad.The realisation that although property,bricks+mortar abodes,preferably far away as possible from "civilisation" is not a bad idea,the best investment will always be in adaptibility,and things of basic necessity.The rest is folly,and i would not trust a cent of my money to a banking system.I think its best,even if you're not in a position to have savings,invest in a small safe+draw your monthly/weekly salary as soon as it's in.Keep your available funds under your own control and guardianship.Well,my 2c worth.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by Erongaricuaro

 

Hmmm... So, basically, it's an electronic currency some folks just thought up one day..and it remains an electronic currency still humming along on rules of it's own design, for it's own development.

I appreciate the quick explanation and it seems to just support my deepest misgivings. One can compare this to the US dollar and say the greenback is worse by being a fiat currency ...and they do. That always makes me feel nervous though, when a leading argument to support a thing is to compare how a real failure is 'worse'. Kinda strikes me as the whole wrong foot to start on..lol

In the end though. If I have a fortune in bitcoin, and by some catastrophe of technology, electronic records as we know them just kinda plop in the big commode of history? What wealth to I still hold? It seems to me...I never had anything that could sit in my hand as a gold coin or silver ingot can. So...in the end, I'd be left with as little as I started, wouldn't I?

Hi Wrabbit - someone probably already responded to this post, but for what it's worth I'll give it a shot.
BitCoin is crypto-currency. It's value is derived by the amount in circulation, how hard it is to 'mine' (or compute) new coins, and the demand for those coins. It's REAL value lies in the electricity needed to compute or "mine" the BitCoins. Truly, it's a way to convert power (ie, electricity) into currency.

By it's very nature, electricity can't be seen (typically with exceptions..most notably lightning), you can't hold it without a container safely containing it, you can't hear it (again, typically), and you can't smell it. But it exists, and it is real (obviously). The same can be said for BitCoins. True, it doesn't have any textile features like traditional modes of currency such as gold, silver or other hard metals. Does that make it any less valuable?

Value is subjective, typically lies in the eye of the beholder, and is subject to change. How valuable do you think Gold was during the stone age? Or even the bronze age? My point is that our world, and our age as a culture / society changes, and the mode of value (or currency) changes with it. I see BitCoin as a natural evolution of currency.

Just my .02 cents.

I'm stunned thanks for posting OP.

DHS had better tell everyone why they have done this, its one thing to go against so much in one move its quite another to keep the reasons for it - is it any wonder no one trusts anything official these days?

what a joke, the not funny kind oh bad joke that is

Originally posted by benrl
Yea heaven forbid someone make a profit off risking there cash on an unproven idea that pays off...

Indeed, heaven forbid.

I know this is how things are and as said before, I don't hold it against you personally. It's legal to do what you do and it even is regarded 'good business'. Sadly enough, in my opinion.

Sorry but I rather have physical currency than digital currency regardless of who issues it and if it is seen as a credit or a debt. If computers go bye-bye then bitcoin go bye-bye too. A dollar is tangible proof you carry on your person just like a gun, that means I am here to conduct business.

There is an old saying......Cash is king! You can buy anything p2p without nosey people getting involved. Cash is harder to trace because the bills have to be marked in advance in a sting operation, whereas conducting digital transactions can be spotted via echelon system, if they want to that is.

I am suspecting we are being herded towards the global digital currency "solution" after the dollar and euro finally collapse from bad credit created by the governments purposefully overspending themselves into oblivion.

I don't have to fully comprehend the bitcoin system to know there is something fishy about it. It is probably being used or allowed to be used as a test run.

I'll just drop this here for anyone thinking about starting their own currency to compete with the FED.

en.wikipedia.org...

www.law.cornell.edu...

By all means, keep voting Repubmocrat.

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
Sorry but I rather have physical currency than digital currency regardless of who issues it and if it is seen as a credit or a debt. If computers go bye-bye then bitcoin go bye-bye too. A dollar is tangible proof you can carry on your person just like a gun, that means I am here for business.

Sure enough, if all computers would be down for some infathomable reason, BitCoins would not be usable. But if computers were all down, your bank would not function either, nor would shops. Many important business processes depend on the availability of computers. If they would not work, society would come to a standstil and your 'physical' dollars would probably be worth nothing either.

But it won't be long or you will not have a choice - physical money will disappear.

The main argument the banks will use (and already use) to get rid of physical money will be that it is safer to use a debit card and/or electronic banking transactions (Internet banking). See, physical money can be destructed. You can loose it, it can be stolen from you, it can catch fire (hopefully not while it is your backpocket) and so on. Banks know this and will use it as an argument to persuade you into using debit cards for everthing. Also, our Governments like the idea of being able to check every transaction you make if the need arises.

On the Internet physical money is quite unusable too. You can, of course, still stash a stack of dollar bills in an envelope an sent it to the fellow that wants to sell you something, but do you really trust him? Or the mail? Or aer you willing to pay huge extra sums to insure your payment? Credit- and debit card systems often give you some protection against fraudulus sellers too (insurance).

In my country we're nearly there. Where it was quite common a few years ago to be scoffed at if you tried to pay small amounts using your debit card (or be charged relatively high 'costs' for the privilege) nowadays our banks here encourage you to pay EVERYTHING with your debit card. It's not unusual anymore to pay for say your candybar with your debit card, actually it now is the PREFERRED way to pay. Even on markets and fairs traders now carry portable, phone based readers. This has led to almost complete virtualisation of money.

The difference between 'official money' and 'BitCoins' is that BC's can be used without central bank or government. And there is a limited amount available, which will ensure it holds its value. Hence it is probably a good idea - and as usual, Governments will use the exception (it is used for malpractice) to try to stop it. Because it will not be under their control.

I'm not really against virtualisation of money - it may be the first step to an economy that is a bit like Stephen Vandenaerde described in his book abou the Iargans. Google it if you don't know what I'm talking about.

To all you goobers talking about "i want dah moneiz in mah hands"










Next talking point to be demolished?

reply to post by ForteanOrg


Anything that goes through a computer network can and does get traced. THIS is why it is a bad idea. Everything gets recorded in project echelon huge mainframe computers and if the controllers don't like you, for example because you believe in aliens too much or because you bash the government, then they can mess with your accounts.

Or if someone tries to sell high volume narcotics, or high volume weapon deals, or anything high volume that is "illegal". They don't go after all the criminals, they go after the ones that they want. Those that pose a risk to their monopoly.

Much like the mafia doesn't talk business on the phone. They talk at dinner parties out in the forest. Common on it ain't rocket science like we say in the states. Privacy is important and it should be obvious why. Don't believe the hype in digital anything. Of course they promote "safety first" but safety from who? The albanians, alqueda, or the cia? Who is the real enemy?