POLITICS: Blair tells Europeans to wake up to reality of Bush victory

In an interview following the European summit in Brussels, British Prime Minister Tony Blair stated that European leaders must wake up from their state of denial and deal with George Bush�s reelection.



Blair further stated "It is important that America listens to the rest of the world too. But the fact is that President Bush is there for four years. He is there because the American people have chosen to elect him" Blair has indicated that he would work to act as a bridge between the two continents because of the strong ties between Brittan and the United States.

"chosen to elect him"

Riigged the election more like it.

Originally posted by Thinker
"chosen to elect him"

Riigged the election more like it.

You can believe that if it makes you feel better about things, but if this election was fixed, then it's safe to assume that all elections are probably fixed. You have to keep in mind that the ATS election had Kerry over 60% most likely because this is an international message board, and non-Americans were able to vote as well. It was obviously a different story here in the states, whether you like it or not.

It's funny how so many of you can't believe that more than half of the registered voting population would be willing to vote for Bush without being mislead or fooled. If you're not American, it shows just how little you truly understand our culture. If you are American, it shows just how little you understand your own countrymen. I personally didn't vote for Bush, but I know how to be a good sport. Sore losers take the fun out of the whole process.

Calm down, you'll have another chance soon enough. That's what the two term limit is for.

The election has happened. America has spoken. The rest of the world should listen," Blair said.

True, we should listen very carefully. If we hear the speeches about how the european children should be liberated from their evil communist regimes who teach them evolution at school we know to prepare....

But let's stay real here and try to be positive. Even though he's using a bit too much the word 'sacred' for a secular leader I don't think he seriously has any intentions to use political or military resources to feed by force his values to the world.

I think the world listens, as long as what is said makes sense and is backed by reason rather than the tendencies of one inclined to think in a particular way of things in general.

"It is important that America listens to the rest of the world too."

I hope so too, but I've read so many american comments lately that I have the feeling they honestly don't give a cent for the thoughts of the rest of the world. But I hope that lack of interest concerned only the election results.

The exchange of opinions, arguments and information benefits all participants if they have the mindset to learn from it and are able to accept justified critique. But if all negative arguments are treated as 'political' and only positive arguments or absolute conformity is accepted there will always be friction and counter-reactions. One should never expect to carry the absolute judgement of things no matter how much resources or people back him.

[edit on 5-11-2004 by vibetic]

Originally posted by vibetic
I hope so too, but I've read so many american comments lately that I have the feeling they honestly don't give a cent for the thoughts of the rest of the world. But I hope that lack of interest concerned only the election results.
[edit on 5-11-2004 by vibetic]

I think that the more recent change in the average American's opinion is based upon how many of us have been treated by those from other nations during the last four years. I've been personally insulted so many times by certain members here, that I also am begining to lose my ability to care what anyone else thinks. I'll agree that it is a shame, but it's hard to care about gaining the respect of someone who's made it clear that they aren't going to like you unless you conform to their desired specifications. I'm sure that this often works both ways.

I honestly cannot see an immediate solution to this problem. It's a shame.

Mainstream America has spoken. I thought after reports of expected record number turn out for voting by the media every liberal in was doing there duty to put Kerry in office. Well I guess the media was wrong, We want family values, freedom for others, and a good war on terrorism waged.

It was America that saved Europe in WWII. It was America that saved countless people from being executed in soccer stadiums for petty outdated Muslim extremist law. It will be America that saves the world time after time. We are a nation of immigrants, free thinkers, and exiles.

You know, all I hear from the rest of the world is how we are bullies, how we are making war in an unjust manner. Many of these voices come from those living in some nations that benefited from the "Oil for Food" scam, and other under the table deals with the despot. I hear how we are horrid people, how our president, who is doing what he is supposed to do by defending this nation, but what I see from, say, the reps of the U.N. is wanting more out of us with no benefit to us whatsoever.

Yes, the world will benefit from the routing of our enemy. After we have finished the mission, when the world is safer, the rest of our "allies" will benefit and will make way for themselves to benefit economically, too. All this benefit and all they have to do is criticize us every step of the way. It reminds me of how France was liberated from the Germans, we left thousands of our best in graves on their land, and shortly after the creation of NATO they pull out. The French government knew they would have to be protected as they were in a strategic location and we couldn't let them fall to the Soviet Empire. All the protection and no cost-sharing. Seems to be a reoccuring scenario.

It seems to me from what I understand about how much of the rest of the world is going, there is not much I want to hear from it. I don't mean that in an angry way, I just mean it as it is; we have a war going on, we didn't start it and as a matter of fact, we ignored the enemy every other time it has attacked us. We can't ignore it any longer. If you don't care to help, that is your choice but please, don't tell us how to protect our children.

Originally posted by Fred T
...Blair has indicated that he would work to act as a bridge between the two continents ...

Yea, he will lay down so Bush can walk over him.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
we didn't start it and as a matter of fact, we ignored the enemy every other time it has attacked us. We can't ignore it any longer. If you don't care to help, that is your choice but please, don't tell us how to protect our children.

See what is a good example of genuine and common European reaction to 9/11: www.snopes.com...

See who all the flags who support you in war on terror
www.centcom.mil...

Even France is there, in fact France offered unlimited support to the US government in its war against Afghanistan. France was also prepared if war on terror should spread to Sudan, Somalia, Tanzania or Yemen that were in range of French troops in Africa they would've been there and helped United States in every possible way. In fact the French still are trying to help you, despite all the boycotts and bad talk
www.usatoday.com...

The point is, everyone wanted to help you protect your children in any possible way and commit lives to help you. Everyone was on your side. Nobody opposed the war on terror

Then comes the bombshell... Iraq. There's a very good smiley to describe the initial reaction of the world to it . Had there been reasonable evidence that Iraq had anything to do with attacks on US everyone would've supported you 100% as they supported Afghanistan (or Sudan or any other confirmed terrorist country) but there wasn't or it was hardly convincing. And when everyone didn't conform without questioning... the rest is history.

Isn't it a true friend who tells you if they think you may be walking the wrong trail. Apparently not.... all the countries that didn't get involved in Iraq were forgotten. Nobody in US spoke about who helped or wanted to help with the war on terror. Bush administration cleverly knit the war on Iraq to be synonymous of war on terror. And all the resources and all the friendship was forfeit to unite even the americans behind the idea by presenting all the rest of the world as hostile to american freedom.

If some companies had deals with Iraqi government, it wasn't what mattered the majority in european people. These are not banana republics where the dictator decides what people must feel. People are free, the press is free, there are many political fractions agains each other and all made their own decisions.

No matter how much it's convenient to suppose that if some european companies had business with saddam then all europeans hate america for profit. To tell you the truth, it feels so bad it's hard to describe... Everything we wanted to help you with was forgotten and all that was was Iraq,Iraq,Iraq,Iraq,Iraq...

The very point of this long post is that we all wanted to help and we still do. Not wanting to help is not the point. But you don't give a **** about our help and forget it as soon as we promise it unless it comes with a note: "we absolutely conform that Iraq is the biggest threat to US and send our troops there.."

[edit on 5-11-2004 by vibetic]

Many Americans feel extremely bitter toward Europe for the lack of understanding and lack of support toward America. Like it or not Bush pledged to go after ALL terrorist supporters amd ALL terrorist organizations with global reach. He said he would go after ANYONE who FUNDS, HARBORS, or gives AID to any terrorist organization with global reach. Saddam clearly fell into this catagory. I'll give those Europeans a quick little history lesson which I hope will help them understand why Americans not only felt Iraq was a threat but was a country that needed to be dealt with before it was too late.

One of the biggest mistakes America has ever made was to support Iraq in it's war verses Iran in the 80's. America helped Saddam by giving him weapons and most importantly Anthrax. Donald Rumsfeld was secretary of defense at the time and is also Secretary of Defense under George Bush. There was no denying the facts Saddam had American Anthrax and the capability to use it. Iraq invaded kuwait in 1991 causing the UN to ask America for intervention. George Bush Sr. drove Iraq back into it's borders and before we could have finished the job for our own security we were forced into a cease fire by the UN. This angered many Americans because we had lost troops and spent the majority of the cost to liberate kuwait only to have the same madman allowed to stay in power. We were forced into a containment mode and had to treat Iraq like a caged dog for our own national security. After the Gulf War in 1991 Iraqi intelligence vowed to destroy America and attempted to assasinate President Bush Sr. America spent 12+ years in a tit for tat containment war with Iraq costing American tax payers tens of billions of dollars per year. The United States tried going through the UN for resolution through diplomacy but year after year the UN failed to it's obligations and ignored helping the US in containment. All the while Saddam spoke openly about his intentions to defeat America to the Arab world. The United Nations finally decides on sanctions in an attempt to prevent Saddam from continuing to produce a military.

In 1993 a terrorist carrying an Iraqi passport planned and DID bomb the World Trade Center in NYC. American Intelligence was baffled and confused on how this could have happened. Saddam was contained, or was he? The man arrested claimed allegience to a global terror group and claimed they had support from Iraqi secret service in carrying out the failed attempt at attacking the WTC. The US intelligence community started paying much closer attention to Iraq.

We had drained tens of billions of dollars per year in containment on Iraq which was a country that didn't want to work out a diplomatic resolution to the conflict. Deception toward weapons inspectors went on year after year. Saddam would assualt and harrass inspectors and take them to false sites in order to make a mockery out of them. We knew he had intentions of hurting America and we couldnt afford to lay off.

On September 11th 2001 the same WTC was attacked by airplanes. At first it was believed by US Intelligence it was Iraq again but this time it was another terror group. America suspected Iraqi involvement but could not prove it. Weeks later Anthrax attacks swept the US. Anthrax is a WMD and this Anthrax was US grade. Who could attack the US with US grade Anthrax? Was it someone from within the US or could this really be Iraq using the Anthrax we gave them to use back on us? We could not prove it, but we were not ready to take a chance.

The world needs to wake up and realize WMD was used on America and the same target which Iraq had targeted was targeted and destroyed in 2001. We just were not willing to take any chances with Saddam anymore.

I could get into more viable reasons to take out Saddam for his support for terror but that's an entire subject in itself and would take another 5 paragraphs to get into. Bottom line is this. America was attacked with WMD and we lost thousands of innocent citizens within hours. We did what we had to do to keep America safe from a second attack or a worse attack. Al-Queda and Iraq were at the top of our list to secure National security.

It really pisses me off as an American in the Army to know France in the days leading up to the war in Iraq continued to send supplies and aid to the Iraqi troops which put American soldiers in more danger. This is not what allies do to eachother but I guess I can't fully blame France since it was taking money from Iraq which was originally meant for Iraqi citizens from the oil for food program. Shame on the French and many Americans do not want anything to do with them anymore. If France was attacked they would not have any support of the American people to defend them after the way they have treated the Americans.


[edit on 5-11-2004 by Raphael]

Raphael:

You're making my point very clear. It's apparent that you don't care all the help all the countries have given or have been ready to give to United States in its war on terror. All that seems to matter is Iraq. If one doesn't take part on Iraq one doesn't exist. Andt I consider that mentality very sad and uncouraging.

You don't want to help french ever again, ok it's your choice. I'm sure they still want to help you (seriously).

I know I would still help US if they were really threatened no matter how much americans despise people in countries who considered Iraq as a bad move or at least a deviation from the order in the list of the most dangerous countries to the united states.

We still all hope you catch Osama, and don't completely forget him while busy handling Iraq...

[edit on 5-11-2004 by vibetic]

We feel like the world has turned their backs on us rather then us on the world. If your country was attacked by Hezzbollah with WMD which came from Syria and the US said you didnt have the right to go after Syria how do you think you would feel? What if on top of not supporting you we decided to give Syria technology which would make it more difficult for your country to retaliate?

Most Americans have the greatest respect for Tony Blair and all the countries who have been supporting and helping us. The British government, Poland, Australia, Japan, and the 27 other countries who have taken part in helping us in Iraq. We are very thankfull for their support and would support them as if they were one of our own US states. But as for France and Germany Americans have lost all confidence in having them as allies. The British public has done nothing but say Bush is a moronic stupid idiot for defending America and Americans are arrogant assholes who want to be imperialistic thugs. We will do whatever it takes to keep our citizens safe and if what happened to America happened to London you would have 300,000 US Military volunteering to defend the British. We respect Tony Blair greatly but we overwhelmingly do not have good feelings toward the British public right now.

[edit on 5-11-2004 by Raphael]

[edit on 5-11-2004 by Raphael]

Originally posted by Raphael
We feel like the world has turned their backs on us rather then us on the world. If your country was attacked by Hezzbollah with WMD which came from Syria and the US said you didnt have the right to go after Syria how do you think you would feel? What if on top of not supporting you we decided to give Syria technology which would make it more difficult for your country to retaliate?

You don't convict a man if you don't have evidence. Did the anthrax letters come from Iraq ? If you want someone to believe you you must show him the evidence.

orld didn't turn their backs on you as I have said many times. Everybody was on your side after the terrorist attacks and wanted to help you. World just isn't so sure that Iraq had anything to do with it and voice their opinion.

Most Americans have the greatest respect for Tony Blair and all the countries who have been supporting and helping us. The British government, Poland, Australia, Japan, and the 27 other countries who have taken part in helping us in Iraq.

Iraq, Iraq, Iraq, Iraq, Iraq, Iraq, it's all over Iraq again. Doesn't anyone care about Afghanistan anymore ? Are all the soldiers in Afghanistan for vain if Afghanistan has nothing to do with the war on terrorism ?

There are so many other countries who want to help you than those 27, they're just where OBL is (not in Iraq). But nothing else seems to matter anymore it's all Iraq ? Everyone has the greatest gratitude for US for everything they have done, but US just absolutely forgets all the rest of the 70 nations participating in the war on terror in Afghanistan and elsewhere, and that hurts. Just because they had different opinion of the priority of Iraq...

But as for France and Germany Americans have lost all confidence in having them as allies.

They are your allies, and they will be your allies. They won't be joining war in Iraq any more than they Joined the war in Vietnam... But they still help you in your war on terrorism even this very moment, they just don't view Iraq as a part of it.

But as for France and Germany Americans have lost all confidence in having them as allies.

German Soldiers are fighting and dying in Afghanistan for the war on terrorism. Just because they did not want to die for artists impressions of weapons of mass destruction does not mean we are not your allies anymore.

Not only didn't you find Al quaeda in Iraq or Weapons of mass destruction or anything else that has proven the slightest threat that Saddam posed to the US or any links to AQ or the 11.9, you also have to fight thousands of angry iraqis now who seem very thankful that they have been liberated.

Who exactly has to wake up to reality?

Originally posted by tsuribito
German Soldiers are fighting and dying in Afghanistan for the war on terrorism. Just because they did not want to die for artists impressions of weapons of mass destruction does not mean we are not your allies anymore.

That's right it is a war on terrorism not just a war on Al-Queda. Saddam had lied to all of us for over 12 years. The UN would not enforce any of the over 40 resolutions against Iraq. Saddam continued to lie so why would anyone believe he was telling the truth when he said he did not have weapons. Especially after AMERICA HAD GIVEN him weapons in the past.

If you gave me Anthrax ten years previously, then I declare to the UN that I DO have them still, and how much of it I have. Imagine 10 years later when I am at war with you and your attacked by the exact strand of Anthrax which you gave to me. Then you confront me and I say that I don't have any Anthrax even though I admitted and declared I had them previously. Keep in mind I have a history of lying to you for over 10 years. What should you think? Would you admit openly to your public that they just got attacked by someone with the weapons you gave them? You would cover it up. If you invaded me, of course you wouldn't find it because it was given out to be used on you previously...

The UN had a resolution saying Saddam could only get rid of his Anthrax through UN monitoring or it would be considered to still have it. Saddam was one of the biggest terrorists in existence. He murdered over 500,000 of his own people. He continued to pay suicide bombers families $25,000 a pop for each child they send off into Israel to blow up innocent civilians. He invaded his neighbors and he launched ballistic missiles into many neighboring countries. The problem is you didn't need WMD to realize Saddam Hussein was the biggest terrorist on the planet and America declared war on terrorism and ALL terrorism. Not just Al-Queda...

Not only didn't you find Al quaeda in Iraq or Weapons of mass destruction or anything else that has proven the slightest threat that Saddam posed to the US or any links to AQ or the 11.9, you also have to fight thousands of angry iraqis now who seem very thankful that they have been liberated.
Who exactly has to wake up to reality?

The amount of people fighting back in the insurgency is far less then 1/8th of 1% of the Iraqi population. In a recent Iraqi poll MAJORITY of Iraqi's, more then 70% believe the Insurgants are coming from other countries to incite civil war. Were dealing with 8,000 - 12,000 people in a very small geographical area out of 25 million people. When you read or see on the news that 10 people have died there are another 25 million going on their lives peacefully and happily. I was in Iraq for 13 months were you there? Are you going off what the BBC has to say about it? Good news doesn't get ratings so of course you will only hear about 1 negative thing which overshadows thousands of great things going on in Iraq. My problem is not with Germany and Frace sending troops to Iraq but with everything that went down in the UN previously to the war in Iraq. Why were France, Russia, and Germany benifiting from the oil for food program? Was that not for the Iraqi citizens? Why did France veto the resolution in the UN and then on top of that supply Iraq's troops with night vision, munitions, and other technology which directly endangered American forces even up until days before the war? That in itself could be considered an act of war against the USA. The MAJORITY of Iraqi's are happy we got rid of Saddam Hussein. Saddam Hussein by himself was a weapon of mass destruction spreading mass murder in his own country and financing mass murder to terrorists. Here are a few facts about Iraqis in recent polls taken by Iraqi citizens.

Polls show 75% of Iraqis want a democracy
78% of Iraqis want to vote for city council members
Only about 20% of Iraqis chose a religious-based party for elections
Iraqi's rated the UN a 2.9 on a scale of 1-4, with 4 being "no confidence" in the organization.
Only 2.1% of Iraqis thought that the UN should be responsible for security
Saddam used the Oil for Food Program as a weapon to punish segments of society, and the money that should have gone for food to build palaces. UNICEF estimates that as many as 5,000 Iraqi children a month were dying of malnutrition under the Oil for Food Program
Saddam murdered over 500,000 of his own people
60% of Iraqis surveyed believe that the attacks are caused by people from outside Iraq to destabilize their country
86% of Iraqis surveyed say that the attacks are an attempt to divide Iraq and incite civil war
61% of Baghdadis say that ousting Saddam Hussein is worth whatever hardship they are enduring
This increases to 74% among the Shi'ia, who were most oppressed by Saddam
Democracy offers Iraq the hope of peace, stability and a better life, while the people attacking the coalition forces offer only chaos and prolong internal troubles in Iraq - 72% of Iraqis agree with this - 19% disagree
87% believe that Iraqi security forces can maintain security without the Coalition Forces
70% of Iraqis say that they would support a family member in a decision to join the Iraqi security services

When we are finished in Iraq and Afghanistan, Iran and Syria will be next for their connectins to other terrorist organizations. Iran is working with Al-Queda right now and Syria helps Hezzbollah each of which are enemies of the USA. Remember this and keep it closely in your mind. We declrared war on ALL terror. Not Just Al-QUEDA...

[edit on 5-11-2004 by Raphael]

A lot of that is true. This is why I would have been in favor of a war on iraq with UN backing.
I am not saying that the war was bad. It was started for absolutely false reasons. And as it seems today, the US govt knew that.

Why did France veto the resolution in the UN and then on top of that supply Iraq's troops with night vision, munitions, and other technolog

wtf? when was that? In the first gulf war? that was when Saddam was one of the "good guys" :p

He invaded his neighbors and he launched ballistic missiles into many neighboring countries

The last time he did that was Gulf War 2

Why were France, Russia, and Germany benifiting from the oil for food program

iirc it was a matter of only a couple of people without any backing from their govts. Now it's US firms benefiting. Capitalism has interesting effects on people.

Iraqi's rated the UN a 2.9 on a scale of 1-4, with 4 being "no confidence" in the organization.

People were dying because the UN boycotted them. What do you expect?

UNICEF estimates that as many as 5,000 Iraqi children a month were dying of malnutrition under the Oil for Food Program

That was the reason for it to be established. Unfortunately it did not work. There should have been Peacekeepers.

But one should also add that statistics basically can say everything you want them to say. I would take all statistics with a grain of salt.
The iraqis could have learned under saddam to always say what the force in power wants to hear.

Saddam Hussein was the biggest terrorist on the planet

I'd consider North Korea more dangerous. Because they actually have WMD.

Originally posted by IntelRetard
It was America that saved Europe in WWII. It was America that saved countless people from being executed in soccer stadiums for petty outdated Muslim extremist law. It will be America that saves the world time after time. We are a nation of immigrants, free thinkers, and exiles.

Let me ask you this! Where the hell was America when blacks (who were/are Americans too though I know a lot here still wish it weren't the case) were getting hung from trees by so called "good Christians" back in "the day" so to speak!? These same morons who are still alive today in their 50's, 60,s 70's, in control of the GOP (voter wise and candidate wise) who in public may conform but in private, in their homes, amongst their friends, in these small Midwestern, southern towns still hate like they did when as teens/young adults would line the streets protesting going to school with "dirty n*****s etc.". Once you get a certain age it's hard to change your ways and I know these people haven't changed one bit.

And please spare me this crap about morals. Just b/c someone is liberal doesn't mean they're not religious or don't have moral values b/c a lot of them do. Just that they don't want his country to stay status quo where the haves continues to have and the have nots continue to not have. If it wasn't for progressive thinkers the events like the Civil Rights movement, women's right etc. would've NEVER HAPPENED b/c idiotic, racist "good old boys" would've never let it be!!! I mean honestly go into these "red" states and ask these moral loving, good American patriotic Christians what they think about blacks. If you can someone get them to tell the truth it wouldn't be very Christian or American like IMO since Jesus loved all, even the ones who killed him and since this country is supposed to be about Freedom, Liberty etc. for all regardless of creed, skin color, sex, religion!!!

Some people may fall for this "America's crap doesn't stink" talk but knowing where this country has been; knowing the hateful elements still in power behind the scenes in his country, I for one will not fall for that kind of talk. I love this country BUT there's still work to be done to weed out these bad apples from the past who with their hate continue to bring this country down. Considering how blacks are still treated with suspicion etc. in this country by those in Middle America, do you really think they give a damn about freeing Muslims over in the Middle East? Please...


[edit on 11/5/2004 by truseeker]

I'm still not sure that Americans are offended by other nations not wanting to back us in Iraq. You have to understand that we as Americans are ridiculed by civilians (not soldiers) in other countries and online. Not supporting us is one thing... insulting is another. I hear Americans referred to as fools and idiots quite often on the web, and over time that eats away at our patience and tolerance. It's also insulting to think that all Americans have lost respect for other nations in general. Many (if not most) of us have a number of international friends. I don't dislike anyone because of where they are from, and I think it's safe to say that most of us feel that way. This isn't the first time that we (the US) have fought a war in someone elses backyard, nor is it the first time that there's been tensions between us and other nations. This war will come and go and negative feelings will eventually pass.

As for those who think that racists are limited to Republicans... I don't know exactly how to express just how near-sighted that mentatlity truly is. There are just as many racist southern democrats as there are republicans. For just a moment stop leaning left or right, step back and take an objective look at the history of this country. Abe Lincoln, the "Great Emancipator" was a freaking republican.

For the record the Dem party does have it share of racsists, not only in the south but in the north and west too. Additionally since most blacks vote Dem you'll find most of your racist blacks in the Dem party as well as other minorites racist against whites. However, IMO the Rep party still has the higher # of those who dislike minorites, especially in these southern, midwestern states aka the "Red" states.

Originally posted by truseeker
However, IMO the Rep party still has the higher # of those who dislike minorites, especially in these southern, midwestern states aka the "Red" states.

You should research past voting trends in the south. Most of these southern states have only recently turned "red". "IMO" says it all.