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Knowledge is ignorance
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We all concern ourselves with knowledge about the universe, about things. You can be an expert on something, you can know everything there is to know
about it. But what use comes from this knowledge? You have not achieved anything by gaining this knowledge (save a desire for more). Wouldn't you
rather experience the thing which you spend so much time learning about?
I can learn everything there is about, say, love. I can buy stacks and stacks of books on the subject, and read them all. I can attent seminars, I can watch movies and documentaries about it. But in the end, have I come even a single step closer to experiencing love? I have spent all that time thinking about love, contemplating it, and all the while I could have been experiencing it, living it.
Stop wasting all of your life in the pursuit of knowledge. Instead, seek wisdom, which comes not from external sources, but within your own self. It is the intuition that nudges you toward the next thought, the next word, the next action you make. It is the knowingness that drives our experience of our selves, and vise versa.
As the great Master Osho said,
"People go on collecting knowledge and get mixed up and start thinking that this knowledge is wisdom. Knowledge is not wisdom. Wisdom comes through your growth of consciousness, and knowledge comes through collecting from the scriptures, from learned people, and making some sort of a system. But you remain the same; you don’t go through any transformation."
I can learn everything there is about, say, love. I can buy stacks and stacks of books on the subject, and read them all. I can attent seminars, I can watch movies and documentaries about it. But in the end, have I come even a single step closer to experiencing love? I have spent all that time thinking about love, contemplating it, and all the while I could have been experiencing it, living it.
Stop wasting all of your life in the pursuit of knowledge. Instead, seek wisdom, which comes not from external sources, but within your own self. It is the intuition that nudges you toward the next thought, the next word, the next action you make. It is the knowingness that drives our experience of our selves, and vise versa.
As the great Master Osho said,
"People go on collecting knowledge and get mixed up and start thinking that this knowledge is wisdom. Knowledge is not wisdom. Wisdom comes through your growth of consciousness, and knowledge comes through collecting from the scriptures, from learned people, and making some sort of a system. But you remain the same; you don’t go through any transformation."
edit on 27-4-2013 by HarryTZ because: (no reason given)
reply to post by HarryTZ
There are roughly 8 billion people on this planet, each as unique as their fingerprints.
Of that number, each will have their own drives, their own purposes and their own goals. They may at some point seek out advice or wisdom from sages and philosophers but... from my personal experience, the most wise man is the one you have to climb to the top of the mountain to find... not the one who comes down to find you.
Just a thought.
There are roughly 8 billion people on this planet, each as unique as their fingerprints.
Of that number, each will have their own drives, their own purposes and their own goals. They may at some point seek out advice or wisdom from sages and philosophers but... from my personal experience, the most wise man is the one you have to climb to the top of the mountain to find... not the one who comes down to find you.
Just a thought.
It's not that knowledge isn't useful - obviously science has given us much useful knowledge about things, processes, etc. in the physical universe.
However, I agree with you that such knowledge is factual, not wisdom, and certainly not absolute Truth.
It is always good to remember that even though one can know all sorts of things ABOUT some thing or creature, the mind can never know exactly what something actually IS. The mind is inherently ignorant of knowing what anything actually IS, and this recognition is a real step to true wisdom.
As you are indicating, it is only when we give up our obsessive search to know, that we step out of the subject-object separation this search supports and requires - and this allows us to be opened up to fully experience, recognize, and feel what something actually is, beyond our scientific need to know, describe, and ultimately control it.
It is always good to remember that even though one can know all sorts of things ABOUT some thing or creature, the mind can never know exactly what something actually IS. The mind is inherently ignorant of knowing what anything actually IS, and this recognition is a real step to true wisdom.
As you are indicating, it is only when we give up our obsessive search to know, that we step out of the subject-object separation this search supports and requires - and this allows us to be opened up to fully experience, recognize, and feel what something actually is, beyond our scientific need to know, describe, and ultimately control it.
Originally posted by redoubt
reply to post by HarryTZ
There are roughly 8 billion people on this planet, each as unique as their fingerprints.
Of that number, each will have their own drives, their own purposes and their own goals. They may at some point seek out advice or wisdom from sages and philosophers but... from my personal experience, the most wise man is the one you have to climb to the top of the mountain to find... not the one who comes down to find you.
Just a thought.
What exactly do you mean by this? It doesn't really seem to be relevant to what I posted originally.
Originally posted by bb23108
It's not that knowledge isn't useful - obviously science has given us much useful knowledge about things, processes, etc. in the physical universe. However, I agree with you that such knowledge is factual, not wisdom, and certainly not absolute Truth.
I am going to go to the absolute extreme and say no, science has produced nothing of use. In fact, our world would be a much more joyous and peaceful place if science did not exist.
edit on 27-4-2013 by HarryTZ because: (no reason given)
reply to post by HarryTZ
Quite the bold statement...
Antibiotics really have no use of course... Nor does the computer you're staring at?
science has produced nothing of use.
Quite the bold statement...
Antibiotics really have no use of course... Nor does the computer you're staring at?
the internet,
it has allowed people from different cultures to teach each other and collaborate together,
it has given people the chance to communicate ideas across social, political and racial lines.
this is but one example.
xploder
it has allowed people from different cultures to teach each other and collaborate together,
it has given people the chance to communicate ideas across social, political and racial lines.
this is but one example.
xploder
reply to post by HarryTZ
It's interesting how you say to seek wisdom within yourself, yet you use the words of another man to convey your ideas. I guess, do as you say and not as you do? It's probably better to seek one's own wisdom instead of relying on the wisdom of another.
I doubt it was your intuition that taught you how to read, speak, write and form your arguments. Therefore, I wonder what your gripe with "knowledge" is?
Stop wasting all of your life in the pursuit of knowledge. Instead, seek wisdom, which comes not from external sources, but within your own self. It is the intuition that nudges you toward the next thought, the next word, the next action you make. It is the knowingness that drives our experience of our selves, and vise versa.
It's interesting how you say to seek wisdom within yourself, yet you use the words of another man to convey your ideas. I guess, do as you say and not as you do? It's probably better to seek one's own wisdom instead of relying on the wisdom of another.
I doubt it was your intuition that taught you how to read, speak, write and form your arguments. Therefore, I wonder what your gripe with "knowledge" is?
Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by HarryTZ
science has produced nothing of use.
Quite the bold statement...
Antibiotics really have no use of course... Nor does the computer you're staring at?
In an ideal world, which, in my opinion, is one with no science, we would not rely on external sources for healing. Any and all ailments would be cured with the power of faith. It is how Jesus performed his miracles. Each of us would have realized our infinite potential, and there would be no need for an entire institution based on chemical medicine.
My computer is useful only because I can use it to spread wisdom. In the world I described above, there would be no wisdom left to share, and therefore, no need for a computer
edit on 27-4-2013 by HarryTZ because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by HarryTZ
Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by HarryTZ
science has produced nothing of use.
Quite the bold statement...
Antibiotics really have no use of course... Nor does the computer you're staring at?
In an ideal world, which, in my opinion, is one with no science, we would not rely on external sources for healing. Any and all ailments would be cured with the power of faith. It is how Jesus performed his miracles. Each of us would have realized our infinite potential, and there would be no need for an entire institution based on chemical medicine.
My computer is useful only because I can use it to spread wisdom. In the world I described above, there would be no wisdom left to share, and therefore, no need for a computeredit on 27-4-2013 by HarryTZ because: (no reason given)
This sounds like something a jehova's witness would say... No offence if that is your religion
In a world with no internet, cultures are ignorant of each other... and one of mans primal fears is the fear of the unknown... We've seen this in our past...
We run into a civilization we do not know... and we destroy them or assimilate them into our culture...
In an ideal world which could never happen.... everyone would understand the concept of love...
Its a lovely thought of course... but its a pipe dream
Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne
reply to post by HarryTZ
Stop wasting all of your life in the pursuit of knowledge. Instead, seek wisdom, which comes not from external sources, but within your own self. It is the intuition that nudges you toward the next thought, the next word, the next action you make. It is the knowingness that drives our experience of our selves, and vise versa.
It's interesting how you say to seek wisdom within yourself, yet you use the words of another man to convey your ideas. I guess, do as you say and not as you do? It's probably better to seek one's own wisdom instead of relying on the wisdom of another.
I doubt it was your intuition that taught you how to read, speak, write and form your arguments. Therefore, I wonder what your gripe with "knowledge" is?
I understand what you are saying. The words I quoted were from a Master, a man of infinite and overflowing wisdom. The wisdom he shares must be conveyed using words because it is not yet common wisdom. Words are the only way for man to communicate wisdom to the unwise. And the unwise is the man who relies on words.
You see, we have created a world where it is necessary to possess knowledge. I (the ego) could not survive in this world without the ability to read, speak, write, and argue. But would not the world and all of humanity be utterly peaceful if never a word had to be spoken, written, or argued for? True wisdom is silence. The words of a Master are simply tools used to teach us how to be silent.
edit on 27-4-2013 by HarryTZ because: (no
reason given)
I remember I had a philosophy teacher who once said and demonstrated that there was never any way of knowing anything for sure. He once spent a whole
class arguing that a “pen” was a “apple” by telling the whole class that there was some grand conspiracy that the government has changed the
dictionary definitions and then wiped all evidence from history and we had all been brainwashed into believing that a “apple” was actually a
“pen”. The point he was demonstrating was that anyone can argue that a little bit of doubt into any given fact, something we actually see on ATS
all the time.
At the end of the class he announced that “the only thing we humans can know with absolute certainty is that we cannot say that we truly know anything”.
At this point I then said “sir if that is the case, that we can only truly know that we can never truly know anything then it shows that we truly know at least one thing and therefore your argument is a paradox how do you explain that?”
At that point the class ended and we never go an answer but I did end up with a headache.
At the end of the class he announced that “the only thing we humans can know with absolute certainty is that we cannot say that we truly know anything”.
At this point I then said “sir if that is the case, that we can only truly know that we can never truly know anything then it shows that we truly know at least one thing and therefore your argument is a paradox how do you explain that?”
At that point the class ended and we never go an answer but I did end up with a headache.
Originally posted by Akragon
This sounds like something a jehova's witness would say... No offence if that is your religion
In a world with no internet, cultures are ignorant of each other... and one of mans primal fears is the fear of the unknown... We've seen this in our past...
We run into a civilization we do not know... and we destroy them or assimilate them into our culture...
In an ideal world which could never happen.... everyone would understand the concept of love...
Its a lovely thought of course... but its a pipe dream
You mistake me for a religious man. I do not follow the prejudiced words of ignorant men. I seek the Truth in myself. I take what resonates with me and ignore the rest.
In an ideal civilization, there would be no thing such as 'culture'. We are all One Being, so how could we possibly separate ourselves from this whole while staying true to our inner connectedness? There could never be separate beliefs because there would be no belief at all, only knowing of the Truth.
Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
At that point the class ended and we never go an answer but I did end up with a headache.
And there lies the grand problem of knowledge
reply to post by HarryTZ
True wisdom is not silence. Silence is silence. To say that we shouldn't speak, read, write and argue, is to deny something we already do. It is true that we speak, read, write and argue; it is not true that we are silent. That is fear of oneself, not wisdom.
You see, we have created a world where it is necessary to possess knowledge. I (the ego) could not survive in this world without the ability to read, speak, write, and argue. But would not the world and all of humanity be utterly peaceful if never a word had to be spoken, written, or argued for? True wisdom is silence. The words of a Master are simply tools used to teach us how to be silent.
True wisdom is not silence. Silence is silence. To say that we shouldn't speak, read, write and argue, is to deny something we already do. It is true that we speak, read, write and argue; it is not true that we are silent. That is fear of oneself, not wisdom.
You initially answered "Exactly" and then later edited your post to what is above. Your absurd statement that "science has produced nothing of use" is actually greatly weakening your argument in your opening post.
Originally posted by HarryTZ
Originally posted by bb23108
It's not that knowledge isn't useful - obviously science has given us much useful knowledge about things, processes, etc. in the physical universe. However, I agree with you that such knowledge is factual, not wisdom, and certainly not absolute Truth.
I am going to go to the absolute extreme and say no, science has produced nothing of use. In fact, our world would be a much more joyous and peaceful place if science did not exist.edit on 27-4-2013 by HarryTZ because: (no reason given)
Science has greatly benefited mankind. Have you (or intimate) ever had a baby who needed help with the birth process and who would have died without what science has discovered? Ever loved an intimate who would have died in their early twenties unless given some scientifically discovered remedy? Yes, faith can heal, but part of the answer to one's prayers may also come in the form of scientific discovery. Why divorce yourself from the good science has brought just because man has also misused science?
Anyway, in my opinion, you are not showing much wisdom by making such a statement and it has thrown this topic off the track I thought you were pursuing initially.
edit on 27-4-2013 by bb23108 because: (no reason given)
I study diseases and health issues caused by deficiencies in minerals and vitamins. I study body chemistry and the effects of food on the mind. I do
a lot of testing on myself but I am perfectly happy learning this stuff from research articles. I'm not going to give myself AIDS to learn about it.
I'm going to avoid a heart attack, not cause one. Knowledge isn't ignorance, the ignorant misuse knowledge on a regular basis though.
Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne
True wisdom is not silence. Silence is silence. To say that we shouldn't speak, read, write and argue, is to deny something we already do. It is true that we speak, read, write and argue; it is not true that we are silent. That is fear of oneself, not wisdom.
Fear is the opposite of silence, it is mind trying to fix something, trying to deny something. It is very noisy in this process. Fear is an illusion created by the mind. What is there to fear? In what way can your infinite consciousness be hurt?
edit on 27-4-2013 by HarryTZ because: (no
reason given)
edit on 27-4-2013 by HarryTZ because: (no reason given)
reply to post by HarryTZ
Human bones have been dated back to roughly 200,000 years. If that is how long we've been in existence, then for 199,000 of those years mankind didn't have a telescope to look into the universe, or a tool to peer into the microscopic. All we had was time to experience our inner selves and gain the wisdom you speak of. I look around at the world today and the only word that comes to mind on this is - FAIL! FAIL! FAIL!
With the unwise intelligence that humanity has gathered we at least have some really cool ancient structures to admire. Just sayin'.
Stop wasting all of your life in the pursuit of knowledge. Instead, seek wisdom, which comes not from external sources, but within your own self. It is the intuition that nudges you toward the next thought, the next word, the next action you make. It is the knowingness that drives our experience of our selves, and vise versa.
Human bones have been dated back to roughly 200,000 years. If that is how long we've been in existence, then for 199,000 of those years mankind didn't have a telescope to look into the universe, or a tool to peer into the microscopic. All we had was time to experience our inner selves and gain the wisdom you speak of. I look around at the world today and the only word that comes to mind on this is - FAIL! FAIL! FAIL!
With the unwise intelligence that humanity has gathered we at least have some really cool ancient structures to admire. Just sayin'.
Originally posted by bb23108
You initially answered "Exactly" and then later edited your post to what is above. Your absurd statement that "science has produced nothing of use" is actually greatly weakening your argument in your opening post.
Science has greatly benefited mankind - ever had a child who needed help with the birth process and who would have died without what science has discovered? Ever loved an intimate who would have died in their early twenties unless given some scientifically discovered remedy? Yes, faith can heal, but part of the answer to one's prayers may also come in the form of scientific discovery. Why divorce yourself from the good science has brought just because man has also misused science?
Anyway, in my opinion, you are not showing much wisdom by making such a statement and it has thrown this topic off the track I thought you were pursuing initially.edit on 27-4-2013 by bb23108 because: (no reason given)
Forgive me for going back on myself as I did, I thought about what I said and realized it did not satisfy me. I truly do believe that the power of faith is all that is ever needed, ever. Try to bear with me here.
Matter is simply pure energy, condensed. We are all pure energy, which is the essence of consciousness. Each of our consciousnesses is part of the whole of existence. Each part is equal to this whole, and therefore has unlimited potential. Once man realizes this, he will also realize that manipulating this energy is as simple as knowing it is going to do what he wants, beforehand. In this way, all things are made possible, and there will be no need for 'practitioners' and 'experts'.
This does not mean that if I break a leg, I'm going to sit in my pain and try to will it gone, refusing any medical attention. I have not reached that point in my spiritual development yet. I will take advantage of any resource available until I have. What I am saying is someday, humanity will reach a point where it no longer requires anything but the power of consciousness.
edit on 27-4-2013 by HarryTZ because: (no reason given)
reply to post by HarryTZ
Well, maybe... with all due respect, you should spend more time learning the mountain before you and less time coming down to street level to tell others about the same.
*sigh*
You'll figure it out as you go on through life
What exactly do you mean by this? It doesn't really seem to be relevant to what I posted originally.
Well, maybe... with all due respect, you should spend more time learning the mountain before you and less time coming down to street level to tell others about the same.
*sigh*
You'll figure it out as you go on through life
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