Greek Myths and Epic Poems (Odyssey, Ilias) Actually Took Place in the Baltic Sea and Scandinavia

I came across this interesting theory suggested by an Italian Felice Vinci and as I did not find anything on the matter, decided to share it:

Wiki:

The Baltic Origins of Homer's Epic Tales is an essay written by Felice Vinci, a nuclear engineer and nonprofessional historian, published for the first time in 1995. The book, translated in several languages, submits a revolutionary idea about Iliad and Odyssey's geographical setting. Felice Vinci started reading Greek classics and learnt about a passage from the De facie quae in orbe lunae apparet, by Plutarch, which points out the location of Ogygia. This island became the point of departure of Vinci's theory.

According to his assumptions, the events told by Homer did not take place in the Mediterranean area, as the tradition asserts, but rather in the seas of Northern Europe, Baltic Sea and Northern Atlantic. This theory has been widely taken into consideration (both in Italy, where the author has been invited to state it in some universities and high schools, and in the rest of the world) and has caused heated debate among the academic community: some of them agree with Vinci, others claim that his ideas don't have well-grounded linguistic and archeological bases.

Felipe Vinci:

"The real scene of the Iliad and the Odyssey can be identified not in the Mediterranean Sea, where it proves to be weakened by many incongruities, but in the north of Europe. The sagas that gave rise to the two poems came from the Baltic regions, where the Bronze Age flourished in the 2nd millennium B. C. and many Homeric places, such as Troy and Ithaca, can still be identified. The blond seafarers who founded the Mycenaean civilization in the 16th century B. C. brought these tales from Scandinavia to Greece after the decline of the "climatic optimum". Then they rebuilt their original world, where the Trojan War and many other mythological events had taken place, in the Mediterranean; through many generations the memory of the heroic age and the feats performed by their ancestors in their lost homeland was preserved, and handed down to the following ages. This key allows us to easily open many doors that have been shut tight until now, as well as to consider the age-old question of the Indo-European diaspora and the origin of the Greek civilization from a new perspective."

Article

The discrepancy of Homer’s epics with the Mediterranean geography has disturbed people since ancient times. In De facie quae in orbe Lunae apparet Plutarch wrote that the island of Ogygia where Odysseus was kept prisoner by Calypso was at a five days sailing distance from Britain.

With this clue as a starting point, Felice Vinci took the map in one hand and Homer’s epics Iliad and Odyssey in the other and started tracing the route of Odysseus’s adventures. He concluded that Ogygia could be one of the Faroe islands, and since Odysseus started eastward from the island so does Vinci who step by step discovers a startling match between Homer’s description of the distances and topography of the places Odysseus visits and the reality of northern Atlantic and the Baltic Sea.

On the Norwegian coast Vinci found the island of Scheria, land of the Phaecians, where his adventures lead him. It is his last stop before turning to his own island Ithaca. In this northern milieu Ithaca is probably the island of Lyø whose topography and description fit remarkably well that of the island in Homer’s epic.

On the journey between Ogygia (Faroe islands) and Scheria Odysseus encounters a strange phenomenon which Homer calls an Ocean River, which must have been the Gulf Stream running along the Norwegian coast.

East of Lyø is the Homeric Peloponnese, where king Nestor reigned. Vinci’s theory proposes that this is an island now called Sjælland where the Danish capital Copenhagen is located. Homer’s account of Peloponnese describes an island, which is a plane, void of mountains. The Greek Peloponnese is mountainous, therefore not a flat land, furthermore it is not an island, but connected to the mainland.

Homer’s Ithaca is near a group of three islands: Same, Zacynthus and Dulichium, which means ‘the Long’, an island that has not been found in the Mediterranean. Dulichium can be identified with Langeland whose name refers to ‘long’ in Danish.

The list of similar findings on which Vinci bases his theory is astounding, and they include the city of Troy in a small village named Toija in southwestern Finland. Troy was the legendary city where prince Paris took Helen, wife of king Menelaus, after having abducted her. The war that ensued was fought over a period of ten years and was finally concluded when the allied forces of Menelaus gained victory through Odysseus’s cunning plot to use a wooden horse in which warriors were hidden.

But even if one accepts that Odysseus could have been sailing the Baltic Sea, how is it that the Greek corner of the Mediterranean today has many places that actually have the names Homers records in his epics?

According to Vinci, and as other scholars have already earlier proposed, there was a notable cooling of the climate. This cooling caused a migration from the Baltic Sea south to the Mediterranean. According to Vinci the people who thus migrated brought with them the names of their homeland. In the new area they gave these names to their surroundings much like people have been doing for centuries.

Essay:www.estovest.net...
Powerpoint Presentation:www.docstoc.com...
Wikipedia:: en.wikipedia.org...'s_Epic_Tales
Website of Troija: www.kiskoseura.fi...
Book: store.innertraditions.com...
Academic critic accepting the idea of Odyssey:www.paabo.ca...

Seems as a truly interesting theory, especially from the geographic profile. Linguistically there are many miconceptions in the theory, especially on the part which refers to ancient Greek names affecting the names of nowadays. Many place have names simply by local meaning, especially in the Nordic countries. Although as he is not a historian by profession I forgive him these. Yet many of his other arguments are very strong and convincing.

I would not find it very surprising though if Odyssey actually happened in that region. Also I had thought on the similarities between Nordic mythology and Greek one. In some ways there are similar, although they have their differences.When I first read the book, I also found the climate and profiles interesting, as Greece is overally very mountainous area and was not very cold, even historically. The articles overally are very convincing and I thought it would be nice share here.

Many people here have much better knowledge on history, so I will let you decide what to think of it.

Would this theory mean that the one eyed Cyclops slain by the adventurers was actually Odin?

Odin the cannibal.

Heh.


Mike Grouchy

This is intresting, thank you for posting. Tho these speculations has been on for decades. Rudold Steiner wrote about these similarities found in Finnish epic Kalevala in his lecture back in 1912.
Steiner

There is similarities with charachters and gods, in all northern stories Edda, Beowulf and Kalevala.

What comes to the language Toija ( im finnish) sounds exactly like Troya when you forget the r. Tho Toija is very small place in Finnish lakeland and i doubt there have ever been any fortress, if there had been it would surely been found by now.

There is a book of Vinci´s in amazon there are few intresting replies about this and the book itself seems like worth reading.
Baltic origins of homer´s epic tales

it seems he has stumbled on to how history is really written.

Originally posted by Cabin
The war that ensued was fought over a period of ten years and was finally concluded when the allied forces of Menelaus gained victory through Odysseus’s cunning plot to use a wooden horse in which warriors were hidden.

I'm no classical historian, but doesn't the discovery of Troy where Homer said it was kinda kick the crap out of this theory?

reply to post by Cabin


Yes the stars mentioned in the Iliad can only be seen from northern Briton, It could very well be that as the temperatures ocilate over the milenia that people migrate to sunnier climates,I read a good article by a sea captain.
google "Where Troy once stood"..Where he states that the vast amount of bronze weaponry in the fields of Norfolk could very well resemble the Plains of Troy, there must have been a great bronze age battle there, in fact an old friend digging a potato patch hit a bronze spear head. Add to that a bronze age boat could easily make 13 knots...thats 150 miles in about a 24 hour period.
Britain was well known to the Phonecians for Tin and Copper Judging by the present temperatures in britain it might very well be entering a cooling stage,the warm periods suggest that in the higher latitudes ie. around the Ornkey islands there were large permanent settlements at one time.It would be interesting to see some DNA regarding european migrations. During the mini Ice age It got so cold in Scotland that crops wouldn't grow, that was incidentaly the time when the Scots invaded england.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by Cabin
The war that ensued was fought over a period of ten years and was finally concluded when the allied forces of Menelaus gained victory through Odysseus’s cunning plot to use a wooden horse in which warriors were hidden.

I'm no classical historian, but doesn't the discovery of Troy where Homer said it was kinda kick the crap out of this theory?

I think the article covers that, saying
that Troy was an ancient legend at the time
and when it got cold they migrated back to the Mediterranean region.


Mike Grouchy

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


I am no classical historian either. But it would seem that the discovery of Troy was more like a discovery of a city that they decided to call Troy.

if true they would find similar relics to that of greek and med origins in the areas proclaimed to be their ancient dwelling place.

time for an archeological dig in Scandinavia looking for pre-greek era items.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Hi bfft,

It's pretty much a done deal, what we call the city of troy , was the city of troy.

In the Iliad, the Achaeans set up their camp near the mouth of the River Scamander (presumably modern Karamenderes), [9] where they had beached their ships. The city of Troy itself stood on a hill, across the plain of Scamander, where the battles of the Trojan War took place. The site of the ancient city is some 5 km from the coast today, but the ancient mouths of Scamander, some 3,000 years ago, were about that distance inland, [10] pouring into a large bay that formed a natural harbour that has since been filled with alluvial material. Recent geological findings have permitted the reconstruction of how the original Trojan coastline would have looked, and the results largely confirm the accuracy of the Homeric geography of Troy. [11]

I draw everyones attention to the last sentence in the above paragraph," Recent geological findings have permitted the reconstruction of how the original Trojan coastline would have looked, and the results largely confirm the accuracy of the Homeric geography of Troy. "
Besides that all of the other archeological evidence about the people of scandanavia and the people of Greece clearly show that the proposition in the OP is way off the mark.

reply to post by yourmaker


There are and have been diggins in Scandinavia, but is there any similarities is a question which needs to be answered or similar enough.
There is a big iron age graveyard in finnish lakeland called Tuukkala´s graveyard where they have found a lot of iron age jewellery, swords and other items.

Findings in Finland






There is similar snake bracelets, earrings etc.. are there similarities enough..

while i have not had the time to look into the linked material in the op, as someone who has read the illiad and oddessy many times, as well as knowing the kalevala very well i just have to jump in and say "wtf"... obvs as pointed out schliemann probs found troy, and besides that, huge amounts of geographical and cultural info in homer is conclusive enough..let alone many other factors regarding homer, greek tradition and other classical authors etc.
i'm gonna have to return to this to follow the links when i have time later etc sheerly out of interest, but it's gonna be a massive, massive stretch
for an interesting post tht gives me further reading though

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

I am no classical historian either. But it would seem that the discovery of Troy was more like a discovery of a city that they decided to call Troy.

I think there is more to it than just calling a old piece of land troy. walls, living areas, Trojan gold coins etc were found there.

To be honest I believe that the city found by frank and heinrich is the old city of Troy or perhaps even outposts etc. I see no reason to doubt any homers epic. It is a story book written to be enjoyed but there is truth at the core.

An old history we shall only ever know from the oldest and strangest myths but forever shielded from the original.

Originally posted by skalla
while i have not had the time to look into the linked material in the op, as someone who has read the illiad and oddessy many times, as well as knowing the kalevala very well i just have to jump in and say "wtf"... obvs as pointed out schliemann probs found troy, and besides that, huge amounts of geographical and cultural info in homer is conclusive enough..

Agreed. The author of this theory is REALLY bending the facts to make it work out. Case in point: Homer never mentioned Britain (so there is no way he could have mentioned an island that lay 5 days sailing from Britain.) Nor are the constellations mentioned in the Iliad.

...etc.

As to Troy, documents (tablets and so forth in the city refer to the city as Troy.

let alone many other factors regarding homer, greek tradition and other classical authors etc.
i'm gonna have to return to this to follow the links when i have time later etc sheerly out of interest, but it's gonna be a massive, massive stretch

for an interesting post tht gives me further reading though

It does give us a lovely excuse to hunt out our ancient Greek history and literature texts.

Originally posted by dollukka
reply to post by yourmaker

 

There are and have been diggins in Scandinavia, but is there any similarities is a question which needs to be answered or similar enough.

They really aren't that similar. The necklace piece you show is very clearly Scandinavian in origin and not Greek (they depicted horses differently, for one thing.)

reply to post by Cabin


S&F OP...took more courage than myself to post this. Still look forward to the discussion.

I purchased the book "Where Troy Once Stood" by Iman Wilkens about 9 years ago and was fascinated by his links to English and French regions that bore similar town names, rivers and landmarks that could not be found in Turkey or Greece. Also, his explanations of the Odyessy which seem to take you to the actual places described.

As I recall he believes Troy to be near Cambridge and Egypt in an area of north eastern France called 'Epte'. There is a river near called the 'nil'.

Would love for an archeologist with an open mind to read and consider. Some academia have blown it off, a few others have embrassed it. How hard must it be to acknowledge something so for from mainstream? Still there is a long tradition in the area that theTroy of legend was actually there.

BTW, someone wrote he was a sea captain. Don't know about that but his degree is in economics and has researched the subject since 1966.

Originally posted by mikegrouchy

Would this theory mean that the one eyed Cyclops slain by the adventurers was actually Odin?

Odin the cannibal.

Heh.

Mike Grouchy

Dude I know some heathens (the very short haired kind) who'd kill you for that (or at least talk about it in grunts and rude gestures ) Odin is not the only "one eyed god" out there, Balor (Irish tales, with a nasty old destructive eye that is kept shut), Lugus of the Gauls, both come to mind.

Ogygia was the ancient name for Ireland, not far from England. Dah! If you look into Irish legends and history you'll find that out. Also the Phoenicians were from Scythia originally, they probably derived the name from Phoeniusa Farsaidh an ancient King of Scythia. The Phoenicians were the ancestors of the Irish.

Originally posted by Pink Panther
Ogygia was the ancient name for Ireland, not far from England. Dah! If you look into Irish legends and history you'll find that out. Also the Phoenicians were from Scythia originally, they probably derived the name from Phoeniusa Farsaidh an ancient King of Scythia. The Phoenicians were the ancestors of the Irish.

No, just no.

Genetically the Irish (and the rest of Britian) is mostly still Paleolithic settlers. Linguistically Irish in all its forms is an Indo-European language, Pheonician (and its daughter Corrinth) are Semetic. Scythians were a nomadic Indo-European speaking folk, from Irian (Persia, as Indo-Eurpean). One should not rely on pagan myths that were recorded by Monks as being unbiased. These same monks made Scotia, dauighter of a Pharo, the Lia Fáil (one of the four treasures of the Tuatha) was her fathers pillow.

If these legends have origins in Scandinavia wouldn't that mean that logically some of the legends would live on locally? As far as I know our legends I don't recall anything like the greek myths and poems in our myths. Kalevala might have some similar bits and pieces but not very much.