Report: Ohio courts illegally jailing the poor

reply to post by mOjOm


You misunderstand.

Until all of y'all decide to actually do something to protect our rights, etc, you really have no choice but to follow the broken system that you have allowed to develop. Of course the system isn't being used for what it was intended, nor does it function in a manner which is compliant with what was intended. The system is exactally what the good people have allowed it to become.

reply to post by engineer418


So you advocate bending over and grabbing your ankles, rather than standing up for your rights.

I have not lived my life that way, and I don't intend to start.

reply to post by poet1b


What exactly have you done sir to break the trend? I see an OP and a repeated complaint through out... Good Job.

Change is something people do, with proof.

Offering a subject of complaint and reinforcement of gripe is what ATS has become.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by engineer418

 

So you advocate bending over and grabbing your ankles, rather than standing up for your rights.

I have not lived my life that way, and I don't intend to start.

edit on 7-4-2013 by poet1b because: Typo

I'm sorry ... you seem to be having some difficulty in understanding what I've said. Tis sad really.

What I said is, sir: When one breaks the law of society they must accept what ever society dictates as an outcome. It does not matter whether that society is "correct" (in the view of an individual), it only matters that it is what society dictates.

You are complaining about what you see as an injustice (don't worry so do I), but all you do is make words, no action. You are not deserving of the change you need and want simply because you won't properly support that change.

In the cases in Ohio, as dispicable as the actions were, as illegal as they should have been it seems in keeping with other "lets kick then while they're down" stories I've seen. This one is actually closer to morally correct (please understand: "a miss is still a miss"). The whole thing is really qite simple: break the law and get punished. Again, it doesn't matter if the law is good or not, it is still "the law", and the breaking of it, regardless of justification, is stillabsolutely wrong.

If you don't like it ... change it!

reply to post by rightuos


The first step in the process is to make people aware of how messed up this situation is.

Spread the word, get everyone involved in the pursuit of change.

reply to post by engineer418


Sorry, but I completely disagree. Breaking laws that are wrong is the right thing to do.

If you agree that jailing people for failing to pay fines for safety violations, that are not criminal actions, and should not be punished as crimes, then join the cause, start spreading the word, and working to get the publics attitude about these laws changed.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by engineer418

 

Sorry, but I completely disagree. Breaking laws that are wrong is the right thing to do.

I feel it is more difficult to challange an existing BS law while behind bars, so ... I would pay the damn find and hire a good attorney.

Challanging laws like this is important, it is a task that perhaps we all should engage in from time to time. But, there is no reason that the laws, or the challanging of them should have to affect our lives and honor to the extent that criminal proceedings might.

If you agree that jailing people for failing to pay fines for safety violations, that are not criminal actions, and should not be punished as crimes, then join the cause, start spreading the word, and working to get the publics attitude about these laws changed.

If people fail to pay a fine, and it doesn't matter if it is for petty theft, or a "safty issue", they owe the amount of that fine to society, it is the responsibility of the judical system to collect it. So, what should they do? Arrest you and make you pay the fine plus some extra, or put you in jail for a while, or, perhaps they should simply place a lean against you and your property. Maybe destroy, or significantly damage your good name and credit?

When you fail to pay the fine you are in essence "Holding up your middle finger to society", what the hell makes you so special? Are you the only one who has the right to ignore social convention and practice?

Again, people will make many laws, many are just plain BS, others not so much. We must seek out the BS and return it to the garden where it belongs.

reply to post by engineer418


The point is that people are getting locked up when they have not committed any crime.

It was and is wrong to lock people up for safety violations.

Everyone with a reasonable sense of justice and morality should understand this.

Many people caught in these situations think this is not normal, but the evidence clearly demonstrates that this abuse on the part of our courts, police, and jails is very wide spread and common.

The more people aware of this abuse, the more likely it is that this abuse will be stopped.

Standing up for ones rights is never easy, often it requires enduring hardship and strife, but it is infinitely better than bending over and grabbing your ankles.

reply to post by poet1b


At the point where these people are being "locked up" the crime is no longer a "safty violation", it has become contempt of court and society.

Why do you have such an issue with paying a speeding ticket? Or do you feel that there is no need of public safety.

Which is more unjust? To treat you like a minor criminal for the offence of endangering the public, and/or displaying contempt for the public in general.

When you commit a safty violation you show me that you have no care for my health and well being (safty), when you refuse to pay the lawful fine for that endangerment, you display contempt for me an my way of life. All in all rather uncivilized.

My brother had difficult formative years and was often in trouble with the law.

I asked him why he'd choose to spend so much time in jail instead of just paying his fines and following the rules,

His answer and I quote,

"Sis, why would I argue with a vacation, where I get free food, free lodging, and don't have to put up with all the bull**** on the outside?"

This was how my brother viewed his jail time. Over usually drunk and disorderly charges. Today he's a good man, married, kid, hardworking. But it wasn't always that way for him.

I think it's how a lot of people view their jail time - easier than life.


Peace,
Cirque

reply to post by engineer418


Why don't you just come out and state you opinion, instead of playing all these dance around games. Clearly you are for these safety laws that regulate how people are allowed to live their lives.

Why shouldnt safety iolations not be considered crimes

First of all, most unsafe acts people engage in are out of pure stupidity, and if we tried to outlaw stupidity, then we should all be in jail.

Secondly, it is absurd to try and write laws to protect people from every possible situation where someone could make a mistake and hurt themselves or others.

Thirdly, most of these safety laws are about protecting people from themselves. No one is in danger, but the person who chose not to wear a helmet while riding a bicycle. People should be able to choose for themselves what level of safety equipment they want to use, and make their own choices a about their own abilities.

Fourth, there are so many safety laws, people are breaking these laws left and right without even knowing it. Nobody has to be in danger for someone to get charged with a safety violation.

Most of these safety laws involve snap judgement decisions. The light turns yellow, do you have the time to stop? You make a snap decision that you can't stop before you enter the intersection, the cop disagrees, and you are suddenly a criminal? It's ridiculous.

Lastly, Because paying a fine for some ridiculous law put in place by a group of control freaks is ridiculous, and these safety laws are getting completely out of hand. It's becoming a way for the inept and paranoid to stop others from doing things they either can't do, or are afraid to try.

If you are driving fifty through a residential neighborhood school as kids are getting out, sure that level of stupidity and wrecklessness should be considered criminal. There should be intent to put others in harms way before anything is considered criminal.

reply to post by GreenGlassDoor


I had a friend along time ago who did that every winter for 6 years.

Originally posted by poet1b
— In the second half of last year, more than one in every five of all bookings in the Huron County jail — originating from Norwalk Municipal Court cases — involved a failure to pay fines.

Not the same as 'debtor's prison' no matter how the ACLU spins it. You don't show up for a court-date, you are issued a bench warrant; same for not paying a fine. This is a tenuous connection made by the ACLU.

Show up late for a traffic ticket arraignment....

You have a good amount of time to pay and there are several means of recourse to make arrangements. If you cannot fulfill a simple responsibility then I don't know what to say.

It is amazing what happens when you take responsibility for your actions and are honest about your situation. I would reckon that 99% of the traffic court judges will weigh your situation (so long as you are honest and show cause) and reduce or arrange payments.

...which means you are taking time off in order to fight the ticket, and a bench warrant is issued in CA. It is down right dirty the way these municipal courts treat people.

Bench warrants are only issued if you don't show. Show up, plead your case and defend yourself; rather than ignore it and think you are above the law (no matter how silly you think that law is); or argue your case on why you should have never received the ticket.

Safety violations should not be treated as a crime.

They aren't; ignoring a court date is. Traffic violations can be paid online without ever stepping in front of a judge unless you are a serious offender. If you cannot pay, see the above; there is plenty of recourse if you actually take responsibility in your own hands

That said, if a Court if violating Bearden v. Georgia (the case cited; funny how these articles never link to the actually source), which would be imprisoning someone because they cannot pay the fine then Ohio's system of justice should be held accountable. But if people are refusing to show up to court and ignoring bench warrants; they are in contempt of court, which is an offense that carries a possible imprisonment with it. The two are separate issues.

From Bearden...

...But if the probationer has made all reasonable bona fide efforts to pay the fine and yet cannot do so through no fault of his own, it is fundamentally unfair to revoke probation automatically without considering whether adequate alternative methods of punishing ...Only if alternative measure of punishment are not adequate to meet the State's interests in punishment and deterrence may the court imprison a probationer who has made sufficient bona fide efforts to pay the fine.

To me, it sounds like people ignoring the law and hoping the ACLU will abdicate them off all responsibility; including paying (or defending) a traffic violation.

reply to post by ownbestenemy


I disagree with everything you have said here.

Safety violations should not be included in the criminal justice system. Making a mistake should not be considered a crime. Unless someone does something clearly wreckless that actually puts another in actual harms way, not coulda put someone in harms way under specific circumstances that did not occur, then there is no crime committed.

From your post, it is obvious you have never fought a ticket, never stood up for your rights.

Allowing these safety laws to proliferate is allowing the system to turn us all into slaves, subjects of the system.

The US was made great by rugged individualists. Unfortunately it seems our success has attracted hordes of mindless conformists, who want to turn us all into caged zoo animals.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by ownbestenemy

 

I disagree with everything you have said here.

Safety violations should not be included in the criminal justice system. Making a mistake should not be considered a crime. Unless someone does something clearly wreckless that actually puts another in actual harms way, not coulda put someone in harms way under specific circumstances that did not occur, then there is no crime committed.

It isn't the "safety violation" that is landing these people in jail; it is the lack of even showing up, paying or defending their actions in open court that is. When you are signing a ticket, you aren't admitting guilt and you are agreeing to either pay a fine or show up in court. Do neither and now it elevates.

From your post, it is obvious you have never fought a ticket, never stood up for your rights.

Have defended two moving violations that I was sure I was in the right. Don't assume, you are making a mockery of yourself. You are shown to have no clue to what is happening here. People are ignoring the ticket and thus it gets moved up to a bench warrant for failure to appear. The ensuing jail time isn't because they couldn't pay, it was because they lacked the civil duty to defend themselves.

The US was made great by rugged individualists. Unfortunately it seems our success has attracted hordes of mindless conformists, who want to turn us all into caged zoo animals.

I will agree here. Just paying a ticket, without trying to defend your actions is expedient and people should, if they feel they have the grounds to, defend what they did.

My point is you are equating a traffic ticket to jail, as if the ACLU, neglecting to note that bench warrants are issued because of the failure to appear; not pay as they would suggest.

reply to post by poet1b


I'm sorry man, but you are wholly wrong!

Your insistance on disregarding "safety law" is dangerous in its very best case.

RECKLESS ENDANGERMENT
Reckless endangerment is a crime consisting of acts that create a substantial risk of serious physical injury to another person. The accused person isn't required to intend the resulting or potential harm, but must have acted in a way that showed a disregard for the foreseeable consequences of the actions.

Please make no mistake; reckless endangerment is criminal.

I won't argue that some of the "laws" are in fact stupid, but they are still the law. You can not "pick and choose" which laws you are going to obey.

I'm at a bit of a loss here. If there is a law you don't like, one that you think is stupid and should not be. Would it not be more logical, wiser, and generraly more intelligent to fight the law in a "legal manner" as opposed to damaging or ruining your life by ignoring it?

reply to post by engineer418


You talk about personal responsibility, but you can't even take the responsibility to read my posts before you reply.

I clearly posted that reckless endangerment should be made a crime, my example was driving at high speed past a school.

There is a term for people who hold others to a much higher standard than themselves, it is called hypocrisy.

reply to post by ownbestenemy


So it is alright to support injustice if you use a technicality?

Where I live, if you choose to fight a ticket, you have to take a day off work to go in front of the judge, just to say that you are not guilty.

For a young person struggling to survive, it is an unjust lose lose situation.

Can't afford to pay the ticket, can't afford time off to go in front of the judge, so they should go to jail for what is most often a mistake, the kind of mistake we all make on a regular basis.

The article in the Op clearly shows how much money is made through this I just system.

No one should go to jail for a mistake , and that is what is happening in these situations.

Originally posted by poet1b
So it is alright to support injustice if you use a technicality?

Where I live, if you choose to fight a ticket, you have to take a day off work to go in front of the judge, just to say that you are not guilty.

For a young person struggling to survive, it is an unjust lose lose situation.

It is called taking responsibility for your actions; right or wrong and defending those actions.

Can't afford to pay the ticket, can't afford time off to go in front of the judge, so they should go to jail for what is most often a mistake, the kind of mistake we all make on a regular basis.

No they shouldn't and they don't. They go to at most a night in jail because they ignored the court summons to account for their mistake. How is that hard to understand? Are you advocating that the poor should receive a different "justice" than someone a bit more well off?

You speed; you pay a fine or fight the ticket. You run a red light; you pay a fine or fight the ticket. It isn't rocket science; it is owning up to your responsibility in a self-governing society. If you are weighing taking a day off work versus a few nights in jail over something you shouldn't be jailed for, I don't know what to say. You broke the law, you have your day in court. What the heck is so hard to understand about that other than you think people who 'can't pay' should have some other recourse separate from people who abide by the rule of law.

Also, it doesn't cost you anything to appear in front of a judge. You go, you plead your case against the officer/witness and that is it. After that, if you win, the ticket is dismissed, you go about your life. Stop breaking the law and guess what? You don't have to worry about taking 'massive' amounts of time off work.

No one should go to jail for a mistake , and that is what is happening in these situations.

Maybe I will type this slowly so you understand; the people are not going to jail because of the infraction such as speeding, running a red light, etc. They are going to jail because they neglected their obligation to appear in court and defend themselves. For the most part, they didn't even seek recourse or ask for an extension. They ignored it. That is what is hitting them; not the petty infraction they committed.

They should only be allowed to put them in jail for failure to appear in court if the person was officially notified of the court date. Addresses change all the time, in my case I don't have a permanent address so this could effect me one of these days due to my student loans.