First Defense for Paul: Spoken by Jesus

Originally posted by Cuervo
Seriously, we should get a fiction section and put all the subjects that you don't like in it. We will find out which ones are fiction because we will follow you around and look for posts from you belittling threads with subject matter that you do not believe in. Brilliant!

That sounds awesome dude! Do you think you could organise it for me?

IRM

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by LittleByLittle

Originally posted by Itisnowagain


I am home - where else is there but presence?

edit on 3-4-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

Good question. My mind does not know so I cannot answer that but I have a feeling my soul does. I still have a lot of undiscovered things to play around with.

. I never felt comfortable being human. There is something off in the whole experiance. Even now there is still something missing that I haven't found yet I think. Ah whatever it will come when it is supposed to.

The mind believes there is more so it 'seeks'. The 'seeking' is what divides you and drives you. That is why there is a feeling of something missing - there is the belief that there is more than there is.
This is complete.
You see the scene before you - that scene cannot 'be' without being seen. The scene and the seer of the seen are one.
Christ is the image that is appearing presently and the father is what sees the image - they are never apart - they are one. Presence. When this is realized peace descends - because the person in time just vanishes.
There is only ever what is happening presently.
Look to see if you can see what is seeing this (appearance).

You are right though, it will happen when it does.

edit on 3-4-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

I think you are trying to make me understand the nondualic reality that surrounds us but I might miss part of what you are trying to convey.

But from my point of view: Seeking creates need. Need creates synchronicity to follow to satisfy the need. Synchronicity is useful for change and to bring what will be into being. We are all tools in one way or another. .

But I think we are very much off topic now and we probably should not spam this thread with spiritual concepts.

reply to post by LittleByLittle

. . . the pull to go home is great . . .

oohagh.
You may go to a place and you could call it 'home' if it makes you feel better.
I'll stay in the land of the living, thank you very much.
Since this is a thread on Paul, and I should be on topic, I should say something that i was reading in a book, and it was a commentary on 2 Corinthians.
I believe it was JHill to asked me what I thought Paul was talking about in chapter 5, which seemed to him to be talking about where you go when you leave this body and apparently go to heaven, or at least on the surface, it is saying that.
I told him that he was asking a lot, to have an opinion on something because it requires a lot of work to form one.
Well, now I have an opinion, doing some study and buying two large commentaries and some other books that cover that subject.
It is not talking about anyone going to heaven.
It is talking about this kingdom on earth.
Now you may think it "hilarious" reading a book but Christianity is based on a book, and without it there wouldn't be Christianity today, in my opinion. So that means that when discussing things Christian, it has to be by the book, or nothing.
You might feel something warm and fuzzy inside while dwelling on your misinterpretations, but it isn't the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is in the words, that's how people work, with thought put into language which breaks down into words, and notice how the Bible puts so much emphasis on that very thing.

reply to post by jmdewey60

I suppose there is no purpose in life, then?

Of course there is... life is to learn

Why struggle?

Struggle is the way of life in the physical world... Everyone has to do it...

You don't expect God to make it easy... do you?

I think you are wrong and Jesus came to save the world, that is "primary".

Wouldn't that make revelation irrelevant?

Which I find it to be anyways... but none the less

Originally posted by jmdewey60

Now you may think it "hilarious" reading a book but Christianity is based on a book, and without it there wouldn't be Christianity today, in my opinion. So that means that when discussing things Christian, it has to be by the book, or nothing.
You might feel something warm and fuzzy inside while dwelling on your misinterpretations, but it isn't the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is in the words, that's how people work, with thought put into language which breaks down into words, and notice how the Bible puts so much emphasis on that very thing.

edit on 3-4-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Christianity gets people to fight over words in a book.
It is not what Jesus had in mind. The 'message' Jesus brought is not about the words - he is pointing to something much greater than words.
Not many follow what Jesus said - meaning - not many get his message.
The truth shall set you free.

reply to post by Akragon

Of course there is... life is to learn

"Life" is to be alive, a being. "Learning" helps in the pursuit of that life, but isn't the goal. it is the experience of a life, of being a person.

Struggle is the way of life in the physical world... Everyone has to do it...

Plants and bugs struggle to live, or to stay alive, or to ensure the survival of their DNA.
I meant the struggle to be of value, to have a 'good' quality to your life, and not just to yourself, but to others, and to the improvement of the universe itself, in maybe a small, but important way.

You don't expect God to make it easy... do you?

Do you believe God make things bad on purpose.
You believe in a different God than I do.

Wouldn't that make revelation irrelevant?

Taking Revelation literally is irrelevant.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

Christianity gets people to fight over words in a book.

Pseudo-Christianity is what gets me to "fight" over words.
Cults pretending to be Christian distort the meaning of the Bible.
I'm trying to counter that falseness by explaining what normal Christianity is.
How you would go about that, in my own methodology, is to get to the original intent of the authors, and relevant to this thread, Paul, who would be one of those biblical authors, who was a real person dealing with real issues that existed in his own lifetime.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Life" is to be alive, a being. "Learning" helps in the pursuit of that life, but isn't the goal. it is the experience of a life, of being a person.

And what if one does not "learn" to be a decent person?

Even Jesus said in a some cases, " it would have been better if said person wasn't born"

Plants and bugs struggle to live, or to stay alive,

And humans don't have that problem?

Perhaps not you and I... but there are people that struggle to survive

I meant the struggle to be of value, to have a 'good' quality to your life, and not just to yourself, but to others, and to the improvement of the universe itself, in maybe a small, but important way.

Again, what if said person does not learn to be a good person or how to have said "quality"?

Do you believe God make things bad on purpose.

Didn't the OT God say specifically, he creates evil?

You believe in a different God than I do.

Quite possible... IF you believe the so called god of the OT is the Father of Jesus... then its likely

I actually think the best description of God comes from a gnostic text...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Taking Revelation literally is irrelevant.

True...

reply to post by Akragon

And what if one does not "learn" to be a decent person?

Even Jesus said in a some cases, " it would have been better if said person wasn't born"

In your cosmology, that person would have to "come back" for another try.
Also, according to your cosmology, he would be born in District 12 (in the Hunger Games cosmos).
In my cosmos, that person would be stuck in hell, where they don't have the opportunity to do any harm, or much else, for that matter.

And humans don't have that problem?

Perhaps not you and I... but there are people that struggle to survive

Yes, we do, or probably most of us has to struggle to survive but my point was to differentiate another type of struggle, an internal one, and of a type that shows us as truly human, and why we do things like post on an internet discussion forum on religion.

Again, what if said person does not learn to be a good person or how to have said "quality"?

Then he has no part in the improved universe that is coming about.
You could argue from your beliefs that he will eventually come around, given enough opportunities. I don't know if you are a universalist, where you think it is inevitable that they will eventually come around. I'm not, but I am also not convinced that the human souls who never will, get exterminated. That's one reason why I would support the "hell" solution, not as a punishment but a safety precaution, to not ruin it for those who do 'get it'.

Didn't the OT God say specifically, he creates evil?

That was an attempt by the OT writers to not put their national god in a bad light, as if the Babylonian god was stronger, and so why Jerusalem was destroyed by them.
"God" was only disciplining them.

... IF you believe the so called god of the OT is the Father of Jesus...

No.
But I do not agree that the universe was created by an evil god.
I think we did, and we were only so good at it, or it isn't possible to create a universe that is utopia, or at lest not one that is that right from the beginning..
We need to continue the creative process through what capacity that we have, incrementally, most likely, and forever, if necessary.
I go along with a "young" universe.
For information on that, listen to the last episode of The Paracast, from March 31, where Dr. Roger Leir (known for removing "alien" implants from people's bodies) was the guest. He explains how scientists are having to revise down the estimated size of the universe.

reply to post by jmdewey60

In your cosmology, that person would have to "come back" for another try.

True...

Also, according to your cosmology, he would be born on District 12 (in the Hunger Games cosmos).

No... I believe said person will return and have certain things set up so that he/she could learn what they lacked in the previous incarnation

In my cosmos, that person would be stuck in hell, where they don't have the opportunity to do any harm, or much else, for that matter.

Yes I know... I disagree with that theology... but to each his own

Yes, we do, or probably most of us has to struggle to survive but my point was to differentiate another type of struggle, an internal one, and of a type that shows us as truly human, and why we do things like post on an internet discussion forum on religion.

Though even in said internal struggle, one must learn from his environment and what is given...

Then he has no part in the improved universe that is coming about.
You could argue from your beliefs that he will eventually come around, given enough opportunities. I don't know if you are a universalist, where you think it is inevitable that they will eventually come around.

I don't do labels actually... but I believe its possible that there are people that just will not learn... Those people are damned... but In my "cosmology" as you put it... being damned is having to repeat life as it is over and over and over and over.... I've heard the definition of insanity is doing the exact same thing over and over, and expecting a different result.

I'm not, but I am also not convinced that the human souls who never will, get exterminated. That's one reason why I would support the "hell" solution, not as a punishment but a safety precaution, to not ruin it for those who do 'get it'.

I don't see it that way... I personally believe every soul comes to a point where they can no longer deny what they're doing wrong... At judgement people are shown how they affected others in their incarnation, and are given the opportunity to experience the feelings they've caused those people...

That was an attempt by the OT writers to not put their national god in a bad light, as if the Babylonian god was stronger, and so why Jerusalem was destroyed by them.
"God" was only disciplining them.

Fair enough...

No.
But I do not agree that the universe was created by an evil god.

Nor do I... keep in mind... Though I am not Christian, I am also not Gnostic... I agree and disagree with both camps on certain things...

I think we did, and we were only so good at it, or it isn't possible to create a universe that is utopia, or at lest not one that is that right from the beginning..
We need to continue the creative process through what capacity that we have, incrementally, most likely, and forever, if necessary.

Agreed... And thus reincarnation is necessary... In my humble opinion

This is not the topic of the thread but that is what I believe

reply to post by Akragon

I don't see it that way... I personally believe every soul comes to a point where they can no longer deny what they're doing wrong... At judgement people are shown how they affected others in their incarnation, and are given the opportunity to experience the feelings they've caused those people...

That's like a Hollywood movie plot, like Groundhog Day. Or even Run Lola Run. Or even the nasty District 1 guy in The Hunger Games, who finally recognizes the futility of his life as he had lived it.

Agreed...

Don't do too much of that, it makes me nervous.
I had this disturbing experience last night with this kid thanking me for helping him. I really didn't, but he was so happy that I even tried to, that he was thankful to me, even though things didn't really work out so well. Makes me wonder how messed up the world is or maybe how hopeless the younger generation feels.

reply to post by jmdewey60


In groundhog day the main character lives that day over and over... and even when he does lots of good things he still returns to his "morning wake up"...


Only after he learns to help everyone and be "selfless" does he finally win his "love"... and progress...

Don't do too much of that, it makes me nervous.
I had this disturbing experience last night with this kid thanking me for helping him. I really didn't, but he was so happy that I even tried to, that he was thankful to me, even though things didn't really work out so well. Makes me wonder how messed up the world is or maybe how hopeless the younger generation feels

The "younger" generation?

no offence my friend, but I believe I've seen your picture on here once upon a time... What qualifies as "the younger generation" to you?

Most people can not communicate between generation gaps... and it seems in the past 20 years or so, people have become completely detached from each other...

Chances are IF someone thanked you for spiritual "help"... they truly meant it... we are spiritual creatures, it is our true nature... If you help someone return to that state, even a little... it is almost always appreciated.

Why does that make you nervous?

You can't agree with someone who has different beliefs or is of a different "generation"?

reply to post by Akragon

Why does that make you nervous?

Nothing to do with you so much in particular but more a general thing, where Im't not trying to get people to agree with me as much as to think things out for themselves and not just accept what is handed to you, from whoever, and that has to include me, too.
I'm not 60 yet, so I don't think I am ancient, by far.
I think maybe what the problem is that let's say you are 20, and you need someone to help you but part of that being able to do that requires that you trust them, then most older people aren't going to and will just walk away. So it was really a practical thing, and not directly "spiritual" though I suppose in an indirect way it was.

1 John 4:19 We love because he first loved us.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 6:1-23 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. ...

You see Grace is God’s unconditional love for all men. Should we continue to sin that Grace may abound? Of Course not taking God’s unconditional love in vein would be worse than not believing in the first place. We know that Grace is unconditional, Because it was a gift that was given you that you did nothing to deserve. You simply do not understand or feel it until you pursue love. You can’t feel love if you don’t pursue love.

Even if you are right that Grace is offered only by some condition of faith. Faith in what? If you truly believe in Christ you would do what he says. He said to love one another, the bible says God is love, what I am showing you is the foundation for how to find the love of God, so that you may completely follow Christ.

What better way to pursue love, the love that Christ taught than to understand that he is love. When you can accept that he is love than you have the ability to make the pursuit of love your religion. When you make the pursuit of love your only source for religion, than you learn to follow the comand to love one anouther as Christ has loved you. Because he is the love and joy in your heart. If you pursue love you find love/Christ/God.

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Luke 9:23 And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

Galatians 5:24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Mark 8:35 For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel's will save it.

Matthew 10:38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

John 12:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.

1 Corinthians 15:31 I protest, brothers, by my pride in you, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die every day!
Romans 6:1-23 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. ...

1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

2 Corinthians 4:8 We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair;
Romans 12:1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.

1 Peter 4:1-11 Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same way of thinking, for whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, so as to live for the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for human passions but for the will of God. For the time that is past suffices for doing what the Gentiles want to do, living in sensuality, passions, drunkenness, orgies, drinking parties, and lawless idolatry. With respect to this they are surprised when you do not join them in the same flood of debauchery, and they malign you; but they will give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. ...

You must die to sin, put the flesh desires of flesh to death.

You must die to yourself everyday and pursue Love/Christ/God one and the same.
Die to: Yourself
Die to: Ego
Die to: Selfishness
Die to: Evil Desires
Die to: Sin

They are one in the same. Each day one must put to death the self and pick up the character of Christ/Love. Because in love one finds life. Remember none is good, not even one. And only one overcame the flesh, the one who lived by the spirit. We are called to be children and live by the same Spirit of Love that filled Christ. In this way we too may become perfect followers, obedient to love at all times.

I still ask this one question?

What do I say that is against Christ. Christ said love the father and love one another the way I loved you. He said to love your brother, neighbor, and enemy. So we know he meant to love everyone, regardless of what we think about them.

How is making Love my God, the one thing that I pursue above all other attributes, how is it against Christ?
If one pursues love one will find love? If the purpose of Christ was to love than we shall also find him when we find love. Since Christ said those who pursue love like he taught will also find the father, it comes to reason that I have also found the father. I have put as my God the one thing that the father and son commanded me to do, so that now I pursue only what they will, love.

Again how is making Love my God against Christ?


P.S. I am not some hippy, who is teaching love without rules. I am logical and rational in thought. We are infants in love, we must obey the rules of the father when it comes to love, or we shall not find his love. I am simply offering you a set of rules that we can all agree on. If I hurt someone I broke the rules whether intentionally or unintentionally. Only truth is found in love, when we hurt we obtain knowledge that does nothing but remove love from our lives.

We must repent to our father who loves unconditionally and surely he who loves us unconditionally will accept us back. This is the promise of Grace offered to all who would follow the example of love, like Christ.

reply to post by sacgamer25

He said to love one another, the bible says God is love, what I am showing you is the foundation for how to find the love of God, so that you may completely follow Christ.

OK, you just reversed what you said in the earlier paragraph. "how to find" seems to me to be the opposite of "given undeservedly".
I don't think it is a matter of "faith in what" when reading Paul's letters, it is just, Faith, where the best way to understand it is as a term he came up with what in the new covenant is the analogue (parallel to, the thing that corresponds to) of what "The Law" was in the old covenant.

. . . the bible says God is love . . .

Which is describing how God acts to us, and not the definition of God, as if He was this big blob of love.

. . . none is good, not even one.

Paul is making a point by quoting "The Law" if you were to think of the Old Testament being the law, to show that even the people who had the Law were not justified (or declared righteous) by it. He was supporting his main point that gentiles are not any worse off than the Jews.

If you pursue love you find love/Christ/God.

You are doing two different things here, making an equation of God, Jesus, and Love, and making Faith goal oriented. Both things are wrong, in my opinion.
Jesus and God are not things, or a thing.
The goal, or purpose of God's love is that we love each other. You seem to be making it something else, by loving others we know God, or by your logic, find love.
The main point the writer of First John is that the alternative evangelists of their own man-made gospel claimed that salvation (or eternal life or whatever) was something obtainable through knowledge of God, and they thought they knew God but it was evident that they didn't because they did not exhibit love to others.

If one pursues love one will find love?

You are claiming a reward for your human effort. And you still are making God a thing to grasp. Pirates, robbing and plundering grasp their treasure as the thing they desired as the goal of all their hard work of crime.
That is the sort of analogy Paul was making about Jesus in Philippians 2, that Jesus emptied himself and made himself of no account, as the opposite of that attitude I just mentioned (the pirates). We should be like Jesus, Paul says.

reply to post by jmdewey60


I agree that we do nothing on our own. If I have wisdom it was given to me by God. This is what Paul said about himself. But he also said that his pursuit of God/Love was like a race. He said he did not believe that he had obtained the type of perfect love of Christ but somehow he felt compelled to continue to pursue with everything he was until he reached the finish line. Which for him had already been prophesied death and resurrection on the day of judgment.

Grace, God’s love, his promise to resurrect the repentant spirit, these are all gifts that we could not possibly deserve. But he says that anyone who pursues love he will give these gifts to simply because they believed what he said. Abraham was considered righteous because he believed God.

If we believe that we are to love the way Christ loved and we pursue that love with all our hearts we will find it. This is the promise. I did no work; I believed the words and started to do what they said, even though I was a skeptic at the time.

reply to post by sacgamer25

I believed the words and started to do what they said, even though I was a skeptic at the time.

That is Grace, like the Lord telling Abraham to leave Ur, and 'The Lord' telling Moses to lead the Israelites to Sinai.
You have a calling. The Hebrews and the Israelites had their calling through Abraham and Moses. You have your calling through Jesus.
It is the same Grace, what made the ancient people who came from Ur, Hebrews, what made the people in Egypt, the Israelites, is what makes you a Christian.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

I believed the words and started to do what they said, even though I was a skeptic at the time.

That is Grace, like the Lord telling Abraham to leave Ur, and 'The Lord' telling Moses to lead the Israelites to Sinai.
You have a calling. The Hebrews and the Israelites had their calling through Abraham and Moses. You have your calling through Jesus.
It is the same Grace, what made the ancient people who came from Ur, Hebrews, what made the people in Egypt, the Israelites, is what makes you a Christian.

edit on 13-4-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

I agree, and I think that you can understand that what I am saying is very close to what you are saying by our conversation in the other thread. Maybe I'm wrong but I think we both are men who know that we are all being called to love one another.

Maybe some won't but I like to believe in the Messianic Age, the 1000 year reign of Christ as times that could happen for us now. The bible says God shows love to 1000 generations to those who love him. I take God at his word. If we could decide to all love one another and bring about peace God has promised his love to 1000 generations. I don’t know what all of this means for me but I know that it must be possible, because all the profits agree on this point.

The first part the good news is “God is Love” or at least “God loves you”
The second part is if you love others you will find love. This is the promise.
The third part the spirit of love, aids the one who pursues love to love “like Christ”

You see this is as far as you can go when teaching. It is not until one believes what I have said that they can believe what comes next.

If you believe in the promise of the Cross, “Grace, Truth, Love, The power to overcome sin and Resurrection to all who will pursue love with all their heart mind and soul.

The problem is the Church has it backwards. It is love that saves a man from sin, this is what Christ taught. You must believe what he taught; this is philosophically different than what most modern churches teach. Those first three parts define “Grace” they are a free gift to everyone. You don’t have to believe in them for it to be true but you can’t get to step 4 without first believing in and DOING the first three steps.

You notice that sometimes the apostles returned to a place and it wasn’t until the second time that people believed. This is what the parable of the sower is talking about. Love is the soil, the plant can only grow and thrive when it is provided love, spiritual water. Sin and anxiety often take this message away from some who want to believe. Sometimes it takes hearing it more than once to understand, or maybe to be ready. God’s ways remain a mystery at times. I just do what I believe I am here to do.

Other times the Apostles would go to people and the first time they are ready to accept the Holy Spirit. They have believed the message and therefore in their hearts they are able to immediately apply the logic to their lives, then they will start speaking of heavenly things previously unknown to them, “speaking in tongues”, this is a sign to me that you are a Christian. The man that fully understands the message will accept the in dwelling of the Spirit of love, the Spirit of Son ship, the Holy Spirit. When one accepts the Holy Spirit than one will receive wisdom, and various spiritual gifts.

reply to post by sacgamer25

Maybe some won't but I like to believe in the Messianic Age, the 1000 year reign of Christ as times that could happen for us now.

I think that it is stupid not to think that.
Jesus did not want to be an 'earthly' Messiah, but that doesn't mean that he is not Messiah at all, he is a heavenly Messiah who is not interested in capturing territory to incorporate into a material kingdom, he is capturing people to include in his spiritual kingdom.
That kingdom has existed since the commissioning of the disciples to establish the church.