First Defense for Paul: Spoken by Jesus

reply to post by jmdewey60


You're the one who posted the definition, not me.

The context is quite clear, he said Jesus ended the law. You are creating your own context based on your conclusion.

Why are you getting so defensive? Are my questions offending you?

reply to post by jmdewey60


Paul admits to persecuting Christians in his own letters. Why are you ignoring that?

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

The context is quite clear, he said Jesus ended the law.

Can you explain it?
If not, then obviously it isn't 'clear'.

You are filling a lot of space with negativity and wild claims for I don't even know what purpose.
Attacking 'Paul' in my mind is the equivalent of attacking Christianity.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by backcase

 

But paul kept the idea that homosexuality is a mortal sin.

I don't wish to hijack your thread but you are giving me the impression that Paul was a hypocrite for teaching that the law (inlcuding the law against homosexuality) was abolished.... yet maintains that homosexuals are damned.

In no way do I agree with the practice of homosexuality.

Neither do I.
But you are the one who seems to be agreeing with Paul....a hypocrite who says the law is abolished... but still condemns homosexuals referring to either the Old Testament law against it... or speaking from his own bias.

Anyone who breaks the law is under the law because the law is for lawbreakers. Anyone who follows Grace, the pursuit of unconditional love, will not break the law because by nature love does not go against the law. This is what Paul said and what Jesus said.

Because God is love. Unconditional love. Paul understood this when he said I can do anything but not everything is good for me. You can do anything that you are permitted to do, you have free will. Your father would not permit you to do anything that would prevent him from loving you so you can know that you are always loved. This is what the bible says.

Here is the problem. Knowing that you are forgiven through the unconditional love from God should not be considered a license to sin, but rather a calling to be holly. The Holy Spirit is the spirit of love. The spirit of love is always close to us, but the promise from Christ if you pursue love the spirit of love will make its home with you.

It is not for me to decide what law you live by, nor is it for me to decide what is or isn't clean in God's eyes. If what you do prevents you from fully pursing love than you will not find love. My advice to any couple, gay or straight. If you pursue sex/lust that is the deepest your relationship will be, you will not find love. If you pursue love apart from sexuality you will find love. My advice, pursue love over sexuality so that you find the truth for yourself. Only God can answer your question, but only when you pursue love will you find your answer.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by backcase
The answer was there for us all along, but we did not understand it.

I guess you'd have to add me to the list of those who do not understand it -- I don't see how that passage has anything to do with Paul.

Paul was a pharisee, he gave up Mammon for Jesus. Simple and to the point.The pharisees were a fairly wealthy lot and Paul was a roman citizen which did not come cheaply in those times. He had money and he walked out on it for Christ. Not a whole lot of men could have wealth like that, and keep walking a road where they would get shipwrecked, flogged with 39 lashes 5 times, imprisoned a few times, bitten by an asp, sleep in the cold and the snow, and walk 2000 miles on their own feet. Any other person would say to hell with it and go back to a life of luxury.

reply to post by sacgamer25

Anyone who breaks the law is under the law because the law is for lawbreakers. Anyone who follows Grace, the pursuit of unconditional love, will not break the law because by nature love does not go against the law. This is what Paul said and what Jesus said.

"Said"?
Do you mean, said in a roundabout way, and in different terms?
I can't think of where they would have said that, offhand.

Love one another, meaning, other Christians.

"Grace" I don't think is a New Testament term describing a method of living. Grace, I believe describes how people enter into the kingdom of Christ, meaning the body of Christ, the church, spiritual Israel.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Attacking 'Paul' in my mind is the equivalent of attacking Christianity.

Only if you accept Paul's Christianity over Jesus'.

Paul never met Jesus.
Everything he heard about Jesus was hearsay from the apostles
and final declarations of faith from about-to-be-dead proto-christians.

Paul added words and twisted the messages of Jesus for his own Glory.
He is not even qualified to be an apostle...

Acts 1:21-22 New International Version (NIV) 21 Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, 22 beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”

Paul presented Jesus as an apocalyptic preacher, freaking people out about the end of the world and Christ reappearing to "Judge" us.

You can follow Jesus' message OR Paul's.

It's oxymoronic to follow both.

TFW.

reply to post by Theflyingweldsman

Everything he heard about Jesus was hearsay from the apostles
and final declarations of faith from about-to-be-dead proto-christians.

"Hearsay"? Peter was a witness, and not for no good reason, he was the one who was always there, along with John probably, with Jesus and knew everything Jesus did and thought. Also he specifically was designated as the one to found the church, and to lead it.
Paul in Galatians said that he first went to Jerusalem to meet Christians and met with only Peter on that trip. I have to imagine that the two discussed things in private, until Paul thoroughly understood what Peter had to witness to.
And that would have been a lot, and probably more than he would have learned in that amount of time, hanging out with the material Jesus.
Acts, is not an especially reliable source for actual history. I think the vision of Stephan was a sort of composite character and what he purportedly said was really based on things Paul said, and was about the insights that he gained in the state he was in, in an upper level of heaven, with the risen Christ.

Paul added words and twisted the messages of Jesus for his own Glory.
He is not even qualified to be an apostle...

God can choose who He wants to be an Apostle and we don't set the rules for who can or cannot be one. Paul would have had all the experiences of one being given the task of true Apostleship.
Paul did have to promote himself to some extent, apparently in the face of competitor would-be apostles who tried to make themselves out as being better that him, having better oratory skills, or whatever.
You may have to elaborate on the "twisting" part.

Paul presented Jesus as an apocalyptic preacher, freaking people out about the end of the world and Christ reappearing to "Judge" us.

The 'apocalyptic' stuff is in 2 Thess. which I do not accept as genuine and rather a forgery written after Paul had died or otherwise left the public scene.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

You are creating your own context based on your conclusion.

OK, let's look at the context, then.

What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. As it is written:

“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”

Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Paul is talking about a God-created righteousness vs. a man-created 'righteousness' that was based on following rules that superficially made them in a showy way appear as if they were righteous, and for a selfish purpose, as if they were in competition for personal recognition and social status.
Even though they had the Law it did them no good because they failed to understand the importance of the fundamental principles in it, that truly does come from God.
Jesus did understand those principles and exemplified them in his own life, giving spiritual knowledge to those who look apon him and believe in faith.

reply to post by jmdewey60


I've already explained it, though I don't know why I need to because it explains itself. He said the law ended. Keep ignoring it if you want, but that doesn't mean it's going to go away.

You just can't accept it can you? No matter what, your fear of hell overrides your logic. Use your noggin, stop letting a fictional place hold you back. You've already got half the puzzle with Acts, so why not go one step further?

reply to post by jmdewey60


Why does Jesus say to keep the commands when that's not really true? He never says anything apart from the law saves, so why do you hold onto it so tightly?

John 15
10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

Was Jesus wrong when he said this?

reply to post by jmdewey60

1 Timothy 1:8 8 We know that the law is good when used correctly. 9 For the law was not intended for people who do what is right. It is for people who are lawless and rebellious, who are ungodly and sinful, who consider nothing sacred and defile what is holy, who kill their father or mother or commit other murders.

Mathew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Romans 13:10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

The law is for law breakers, love is for the righteous.

Love one another because there is one God. That means we are all his children, so we are all brothers. Even if you refuse to accept that, the bible also says love your neighbor. The man of a different faith, the Samaritan was to be considered a neighbor simply because he loved you. If a man of a different faith shows you love he is your neighbor according to Christ. Christ also said love your enemy. So your command is to love everyone, it becomes easier when you accept we are all brothers because we have one father.

1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the (unconditional love)grace of God I am what I am, and his(unconditional love) grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the (unconditional love) grace of God that is with me.

Romans 3:20-24 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his (unconditional love )grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Here is your stumbling block, you must remove it. — the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. What is it that we must believe? We must believe that God is unconditional love. We must believe that if we pursue unconditional love that we will find it. We are the ones that are being made righteous through the unconditional love poured out on us from God. We know that he loves all of us because Christ died for all.

Hebrews 10:8-10 8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

.

The covenant is for all who believe in unconditional love and pursue it as a way of life. Grace is God's unconditional love. If you pursue unconditional love and live by its example you will fulfill the law. Because love is the fulfillment of the law.

Romans 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

The law of Moses, the law of Men, or the law of Grace. I will continue to subject myself to unconditional love as a way of life.

Try to understand I am not trying to take Christ away from the equation; he is the source of all that I say. I simply want people to understand how to follow him. People don't know what "follow Christ" means. But most can understand pursue unconditional love, and anyone who pursues unconditional love pursues God because God is love.

Anyone who pursues love will find it.

reply to post by jmdewey60


The Pharisees could not obey the law because the law says love God and love your neighbor. They had become more concerned with the righteousness obtained by observing the rest of the law they had not loved one another, which is the most important commandment. Seeking righteousness apart from love is foolish, because God is love. Love cannot be found by merely obeying the law. The law does nothing to restrain sensual indulgence. But the pursuit of love satisfies the sensual and completes the law. Because love does no harm it is the fulfillment of the law.

Jesus poured out unconditional love on all men, thus he fulfilled all the commandments, not because he obeyed the law, but because he sought to love all men.

Pursue unconditional love, unconditionally, and you will fulfill the law. This is the only way one can learn to become righteous. There is no righteousness apart from Love/God.

Luke 11:42 "Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone.

Colossians 2:20-23 20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: 21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22 These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

Paul is not suggesting that we should not follow the law by these verses like some have said. What he was warning against was teaching people to obey the law of Moses, or any law for that matter. He is pointing to living through the power of Grace (unconditional love). The pursuit of love is what can cause a man to overcome the sensual indulgences that he partakes in at the expense of his neighbor. Because love does no harm, love is the fulfillment of the law. The law is dead "nailed to the cross", for those who pursue love, "like Christ".

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

He said the law ended.

I doesn't say that in any translation, so stop pretending that it does.
That is only your own personal interpretation of what Paul wrote, with your own bias thrown in.
It never says "the law ended" and no reputable biblical scholar believes that it means that.
Can you quote a Bible commentary that agrees with you?
Here is some cross references from Barnes' Notes on the Bible:

1 Timothy 1:5," The end of the commandment is charity;" the main design or purpose of the command is to produce love; 1 Peter 1:9, "The end of your faith, the salvation of your souls;" the main design or purpose of faith is to secure salvation; Romans 14:9, "To this end Christ both died," etc. For this design or purpose. This is doubtless its meaning here. "The main design or object which the perfect obedience of the Law would accomplish, is accomplished by faith in Christ."

reply to post by jmdewey60


Yes It does, I've already listed it, you're just ignoring it. Remember the KJV I posted earlier? Yeah, it does say that in a translation.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Why does Jesus say to keep the commands when that's not really true?

I'm not making an argument about that, so I have no idea what you are objecting to.
If you are not a Christian, then I don't know why you are discussing theological matters.
You have no understanding of it and sit on the sidelines making calls to confuse the ones on the field.
This is a board for faith. If you have none, please leave.
Mysticism is a sub-forum that may suite your beliefs better.

reply to post by jmdewey60


But you are. You say that people are saved apart from the law, if not then you disagree with Paul.

I thought the forum was named "religion, faith, and theology", not just "faith". Stop making things up. Or do you believe that theology only includes Christians?

reply to post by sacgamer25

1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the (unconditional love)grace of God I am what I am, and his(unconditional love) grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the (unconditional love) grace of God that is with me.
. . .all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his (unconditional love )grace as a gift . . .

So, just rewrite the Bible to suite your preconceived ideas rather than learning what the writer actually meant? That makes things simpler.
You haven't proven your point by just saying you are right.
You claim to have the backing of Jesus and Paul but you fail to make a convincing argument that they ever said anything like what your gospel is saying.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

You say that people are saved apart from the law . . .

I don't . . for one thing, I don't believe anyone is 'saved' in the popular connotation of the word. That is yet to be seen, at the end of time.
People are 'right with God' or in good standing in Christ's kingdom on earth, where we are invited into it by grace, and remain in it by Faith.
If we endure to the end, then we should expect a favorable outcome, come Judgment Day.

reply to post by jmdewey60


How can you consider Earth Jesus' kingdom? Isn't he the prince of peace? How can a place with so much war and deception be considered the prince of peace's kingdom? If that were true, we would have no war and no one in power lying to us.