Fate or Free Will?

reply to post by Wonders


Paul clearly believed in predestination, which contradicts free will.

Regarding the first bit of scripture you shared by Paul, there are others stating that IF you love Jesus, you'll obey his commands. Those who obey Jesus' commands then you're heeding the call to your purpose because God doesn't want anyone to perish but for all to come to repentance. Jesus said that by our words we are justified and by our words we are condemned. Many are called, few are chosen.

"If you love Jesus" you'll obey his commands?

Love can't be willed. Belief in Biblical stories can't be willed.

I am not a Christian as I don't believe that Jesus died for my sins or rose from the dead, or that he was "God."

According to Paul, God made me that way, and I have no right to question God for sending me to hell for making me that way.

reply to post by JacobsLadder


If Jesus was "God incarnate" and his will was God's will, why then did he pray "Take this cup from me." and "Not my will by thy will."?

NOPE, in the Bible even Jesus was required to surrender his free will to do "God's will."

reply to post by windword

According to Paul, God made me that way, and I have no right to question God for sending me to hell for making me that way.

I'm guessing that you missed my post explaining the verses you quoted supposedly supporting your claim.
God predestined the church through Jesus.
If you are currently a member of the church, you are thanks to the plan God had, to send Jesus into the world to create that church.
What Paul is doing is creating a counterbalancing argument against the Jew's claim of being predestined to be God's chosen people.

reply to post by jmdewey60


I didn't miss your post, it just went beyond the scope of my point, the ambiguity of free will and personal power in the Bible, et al, not just Paul.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by windword

 

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.” Romans 8:28-30 [NIV]

Which individuals in history do you think were 'glorified'?
How about . . none?

The ones that were predestined to be glorified?

Who, as in a group, were . . is the church, as the heirs, those who are to inherent, as heirs of Jesus, someone God did know, and who was following the plan, and working with The Spirit to carry out that plan, we also work with The Spirit in a cooperative manner, to carry out that plan, to fulfill the numbers of the sons of God.

"God's plan" is predestined, is it not?

Paul is using the word 'justified' as a technical term to describe what is the analog of the election of Israel, applying the parallel of that in a new covenant way to the church.

Yeah, I get it. Paul is justifying his new religion.

Originally posted by vethumanbeing

Jesus knew his fate; Judas was a pawn used by Jesus to fulfill prophecy; Judas was not let in on the little joke of his actual purpose. As someone said another would have been chosen/stepped in to fill the round peg in the square hole of betrayal, maybe Thomas. So obviously the 'freewill' arguement regarding Jesus is null, fate and destiny prevailed over the humans natural right of selfwill. Unless Jesus actually believed and participated, was part of the planning of its own birth, there is a problem. His utterances on the cross are a large clue as to his backpeddling, his doubts. There is the idea all things are planned before birth; no thing exists as accidental as it is all about your soul growth and what you have planned for your next journey. This is a belief system allowing for fate and destiny and also allows for you to change it (freewill) but to an uncertain conclusion, usually a negative outcome. You planned your parents you planned your exact insertion into this world situation.

jacobsladder
Since Christ was the spirit of God incarnate, free will didn't apply in his case, it was actually God's will, him being God. As far as Judas, perhaps he WAS "in on it", there are many gnostics who believe he was but that isn't shared with us. He may not have betrayed Christ at all but made a great sacrifice for him that his plans could be carried out. Of course he could have chosen not to, then a different disciple would have been given the task and we probably still wouldn't have known that he was "in on it".Not saying this is absolutely the case, but it is a possibility.

IN REPLY TO JACOBSLADDER
Your belief system allows that Jesus is God/spirit incarnate; are you saying that once 'in matter' that God cannot change its own mind (dueling circumstances not foreseen?) God cannot change the rules of its own experience as a human? You are thinking IT saw all possibilities all probabilities and knew outcomes? I would say that IT left much to the accidental occurrance (that is the true HUMAN experience) or would never have bothered with the extensive RE-WRITING of the script. This was not well planned, yet became a blockbuster movie in spite of the false/bad unbelievable narrative.

Judas as a Gnostic; having a total understanding somewhere between accepting the silver and returning it then to hang itself in shame. I tell you Jesus and Judas were not in league; whatever tests of fortitude occurring were behind the scenes unknown to regular movie goers of the time. Judas was the one ultimately betrayed, not Jesus; I am sure there was some pity involved somewhere along with gullibility, betrayal, sacrificial love, and doubt. Judas represents at least half of the equation defining the Christian Belief System; and he gets no CREDIT for his astoundingly BRAVE participation. I know that Jesus was just as much a pawn as Judas, so although a 9D creature was just as manipulated by its Creater (not God in flesh and bone) equally betrayed and so cancels ALL (Judas betrays his Teacher and God marginalizes its only begotten Son/Student).

reply to post by windword

I didn't miss your post, it just went beyond the scope of my point, the ambiguity of free will and personal power in the Bible, et al, not just Paul.

Alright.
God knows the future in that He knows what He is capable of bringing about by His own force of will.
Those who choose to cooperate in that plan are "predestined" to be successful.
Those who choose to hinder that plan are "predestined" to fail.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by Wonders

 

Paul clearly believed in predestination, which contradicts free will.

Regarding the first bit of scripture you shared by Paul, there are others stating that IF you love Jesus, you'll obey his commands. Those who obey Jesus' commands then you're heeding the call to your purpose because God doesn't want anyone to perish but for all to come to repentance. Jesus said that by our words we are justified and by our words we are condemned. Many are called, few are chosen.

"If you love Jesus" you'll obey his commands?

Love can't be willed. Belief in Biblical stories can't be willed.

I am not a Christian as I don't believe that Jesus died for my sins or rose from the dead, or that he was "God."

According to Paul, God made me that way, and I have no right to question God for sending me to hell for making me that way.

reply to post by JacobsLadder

 

If Jesus was "God incarnate" and his will was God's will, why then did he pray "Take this cup from me." and "Not my will by thy will."?

NOPE, in the Bible even Jesus was required to surrender his free will to do "God's will."

Your interpretation of what Paul said is of little consequence, God did not create loopholes for people who refuse to "choose this day whom you will serve."
From what I gathered from your previous posts, it was my understanding that you did not believe so I don't understand why you felt compelled to point out your non-christian status.
Love is an act of the will, you will acknowledge that consciouslly or unconsciously, but this can not be untrue even if you will it. Everyone loves something, no one can serve two masters, either he will love one and despise the other or be loyal to one and careless with the other, when it comes to making life and death decisions, there are plenty who could care less, they couldn't be bothered to acknowledge that they have a choice of their own.

Proverbs 19:24 Lazy people take food in their hand but don't even lift it to their mouth.

I gave you verses which clearly show that you have preferences of your own, but you'd rather eat ashes than be spoonfed.

reply to post by Wonders


I disagree with the Bible's teaching against free will and for pre-destination.

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. .... For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?

Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." -- Romans 9:11-22

According to Paul, God made me the way I am, a non-Christain, and has damned me for it before the earth was created. According to Paul, I have no right to question my fate.

"God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned." --

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old, ordained to this condemnation." -- Jude 4

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reply to post by windword

Paul False Apostle

This may help you, but I doubt you'd allow it to, Martyr.

Originally posted by Wonders
reply to post by windword

 

Paul False Apostle

This may help you,

Thanks for the link. I also believe Paul to be a "false prophet."

but I doubt you'd allow it to, Martyr.

Why not? Are you saying that I'm playing the martyr?