Fate or Free Will?

Did Judas and Peter have free will? Or were they subject to fate?

I happened to catch The Bible on the History Channel as I waited to watch the latest episode of Vikings. It made me think today (as I was driving home from work of all things!) about free will and fate -- knowing Jesus supposedly knew Peter would deny him three times and that Judas would betray him. Sounds like fate to me. But I thought we had free will -- and choice -- and we could choose our thoughts and actions.

In the interest of full disclosure, first, I am not religious, despite having gone to some Sunday school classes and a couple church sermons in my youth. So I don't consider myself Christian, despite some knowledge. I've read quite a bit about major religions, but do not align with any. I am not atheist nor agnostic - that is as far as I'll discuss at the moment.

Therefore, I don't have a "side" or "position" or "belief" in the answer to my question. It is but a question - and I would be very interested in hearing from ATS-ers of all opinions and beliefs - just because I'm curious.

Do Christians believe in fate? That our choices already are made and cannot be changed?

Also, even though I know the story of Judas and of Peter, I wondered why they did what they did? Throughout history, we have heard of people, ordinary people, who have died for their beliefs, their religion/god, their family, or country -- so why did Peter deny Jesus out of fear? I would have thought seeing Jesus raise Lazaris and walk on water would be enough to convince Peter that Jesus was really the Messiah and worth risking death for. Again, I'm just curious.

I don't know if the Bible stories are based on historical events or not - or based on myths of earlier times and religions -- or modified by churches so that we don't know what the truth was -- BUT, I don't want to have this thread go off on tangents in this regard. Would rather just hear about faith vs. free will/choice -- that is, if anyone is interested in sharing their thoughts.

reply to post by Galadriel


Free will, always...

The answer to your question is simple... reiterated in the gospels...

Jesus knew the hearts of all men

reply to post by Galadriel


I do believe that we have free will, to a certain extent. I mean, we can't change the path of the earth's orbit, or will an asteroid not to hit us. We can't stop a drunk driver from running a red light and killing us. So, there is a mix of fate and free will, and it has to do with what we consider "present time", in my opinion.

However, the Bible never mentions free will or even hints that man has it, on the contrary, more often than not the God of the Old Testament boasts that we don't. He threatens us with curses, death and even hell for using our free will, and mocks us for thinking that we may have a little wisdom, in which to make free will choices.

I did a thread on my opinions of the God of the Old Testament and Free will:

The Free Will Conspiracy of the Bible

I feel they had free will as we all do, however, there was also a plan laid out for them. I see it as a screenplay written for us and we have the choice to follow that screenplay or not. If we choose to not follow it, there is an "understudy" who can also fulfill the role set out. There are certain events that will happen regardless of whether our free will inclines us to be the people to bring those events to fruition or if the opportunity is given to someone else.

If Judas and Peter had not accepted their roles, then others would have been called to do so. Perhaps we would have had apostles named Fredrick and Henry if they had chosen otherwise but the events, or at least the key points would have played out the same. If Judas had chosen to not betray Christ, perhaps it would have been Peter that did so since it was a required action for the crucifixion to occur.

The outline is given, we fill in the pieces as we go.

IMHO of course.

Of course if a plan is laid into action, then it must be fulfilled. Look at Jonah, he, due to his path up until that point, was required to fulfill a specific action. He hesitated to do so and was "convinced" to carry through with it. Although he had free will, the actions still needed to take place and due to his choices up until that point, they needed to be fulfilled by him, so he was convinced to do what needed to be done.

He could have resisted further, but if he had, his story would not have been shared and another's story would have taken it's place.

reply to post by Galadriel

If I read a book which I've read before (or a book about a familar piece of history), i know what people are going to do.
But that doesn't mean I'm making them do it.
So it may be something like that.

Originally posted by JacobsLadder
I feel they had free will as we all do, however, there was also a plan laid out for them. I see it as a screenplay written for us and we have the choice to follow that screenplay or not. If we choose to not follow it, there is an "understudy" who can also fulfill the role set out. There are certain events that will happen regardless of whether our free will inclines us to be the people to bring those events to fruition or if the opportunity is given to someone else.

Jesus knew his fate; Judas was a pawn used by Jesus to fulfill prophecy; Judas was not let in on the little joke of his actual purpose. As someone said another would have been chosen/stepped in to fill the round peg in the square hole of betrayal, maybe Thomas. So obviously the 'freewill' arguement regarding Jesus is null, fate and destiny prevailed over the humans natural right of selfwill. Unless Jesus actually believed and participated, was part of the planning of its own birth, there is a problem. His utterances on the cross are a large clue as to his backpeddling, his doubts. There is the idea all things are planned before birth; no thing exists as accidental as it is all about your soul growth and what you have planned for your next journey. This is a belief system allowing for fate and destiny and also allows for you to change it (freewill) but to an uncertain conclusion, usually a negative outcome. You planned your parents you planned your exact insertion into this world situation.

However, the Bible never mentions free will or even hints that man has it, on the contrary, more often than not the God of the Old Testament boasts that we don't. He threatens us with curses, death and even hell for using our free will, and mocks us for thinking that we may have a little wisdom, in which to make free will choices.

reply to post by windword


Thanks for sharing the link. I'll spend some time on it. (Should have "searched" before I asked my question.)

I always thought Jesus wanted people to choose to believe. If you have no choice, then you are like a robot or a video game character, no? Funny, I came away from my Sunday school years thinking God gave us free will and it was our choice -- of course, knowing the consquences for the "wrong" choices.

Thanks for sharing!

Originally posted by vethumanbeing

Originally posted by JacobsLadder
I feel they had free will as we all do, however, there was also a plan laid out for them. I see it as a screenplay written for us and we have the choice to follow that screenplay or not. If we choose to not follow it, there is an "understudy" who can also fulfill the role set out. There are certain events that will happen regardless of whether our free will inclines us to be the people to bring those events to fruition or if the opportunity is given to someone else.

Jesus knew his fate; Judas was a pawn used by Jesus to fulfill prophecy; Judas was not let in on the little joke of his actual purpose. As someone said another would have been chosen/stepped in to fill the round peg in the square hole of betrayal, maybe Thomas. So obviously the 'freewill' arguement regarding Jesus is null, fate and destiny prevailed over the humans natural right of selfwill. Unless Jesus actually believed and participated, was part of the planning of its own birth, there is a problem. His utterances on the cross are a large clue as to his backpeddling, his doubts. There is the idea all things are planned before birth; no thing exists as accidental as it is all about your soul growth and what you have planned for your next journey. This is a belief system allowing for fate and destiny and also allows for you to change it (freewill) but to an uncertain conclusion, usually a negative outcome. You planned your parents you planned your exact insertion into this world situation.

edit on 25-3-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)

I sometimes agree with the idea that things are planned before birth - but not all things -- more the "outline" and "lesson plans" but not all the details and certainly not one's response and choices to the "lessons" that occur. For example, my husband died in an accident. Perhaps he picked that for him, my kids picked it for their growth, and I picked it for my growth to deal with loss. But it feels as if I have a choice as to how I want to respond to this accident and loss. Could I become suicidal? Depressed? Angry? Defiant and desperate? Or move on and build a great life? Are those my choices or was my response "pre-destined" by God or by me before birth?

Interesting.

I just remembered the ending of Touch on Fox this past Friday...where the girl sees all the possible outcomes, but as choices are made, the number of outcomes collapses down to just a few, and where there may not be a great deal of diference in the outcome and certainly not a full range of options.

Originally posted by Galadriel

However, the Bible never mentions free will or even hints that man has it, on the contrary, more often than not the God of the Old Testament boasts that we don't. He threatens us with curses, death and even hell for using our free will, and mocks us for thinking that we may have a little wisdom, in which to make free will choices.

reply to post by windword

 

Thanks for sharing the link. I'll spend some time on it. (Should have "searched" before I asked my question.)

No prob. These kinds of threads are philosophical and every time someone presents their thoughts and ideas in a new thread, new conversations, new people and new ideas come forward. No worries!

I always thought Jesus wanted people to choose to believe. If you have no choice, then you are like a robot or a video game character, no? Funny, I came away from my Sunday school years thinking God gave us free will and it was our choice -- of course, knowing the consequences for the "wrong" choices.

From my perspective, Christians are taught to "die to" and surrender their free will to God. Jesus praying, "not my will, but yours" is used as an example of how even HE surrender his free will to God.

In my opinion, true free will IS GOD's will.

Originally posted by Galadriel

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
Jesus knew his fate; Judas was a pawn used by Jesus to fulfill prophecy; Judas was not let in on the little joke of his actual purpose. As someone said another would have been chosen/stepped in to fill the round peg in the square hole of betrayal, maybe Thomas. So obviously the 'freewill' arguement regarding Jesus is null, fate and destiny prevailed over the humans natural right of selfwill. Unless Jesus actually believed and participated, was part of the planning of its own birth, there is a problem. His utterances on the cross are a large clue as to his backpeddling, his doubts. There is the idea all things are planned before birth; no thing exists as accidental as it is all about your soul growth and what you have planned for your next journey. This is a belief system allowing for fate and destiny and also allows for you to change it (freewill) but to an uncertain conclusion, usually a negative outcome. You planned your parents you planned your exact insertion into this world situation.

galadriel
I sometimes agree with the idea that things are planned before birth - but not all things -- more the "outline" and "lesson plans" but not all the details and certainly not one's response and choices to the "lessons" that occur. For example, my husband died in an accident. Perhaps he picked that for him, my kids picked it for their growth, and I picked it for my growth to deal with loss. But it feels as if I have a choice as to how I want to respond to this accident and loss. Could I become suicidal? Depressed? Angry? Defiant and desperate? Or move on and build a great life? Are those my choices or was my response "pre-destined" by God or by me before birth?

Outline lesson plan good enough for the 'contents page'. No details, however I would expect something so major as a spouse dying would form some of that content page outline to be prepared for or expected. Your recourse is in healing your loved ones regarding traumatic loss or being devastated or growing from this uniquely personal experience that only you can quantify the depth (emotional). You can become anything Your Higher Selves would rather you talk to them about this as you planned it all together (not a persons death, the experience). YOU pre-determined this set of circumstances before birth in order to progress your soul. Everytime you make a finite decision, you shrink the possibles of outcomes exponencially. This is critical as you must guess make the right choice for an outcome in the present (at the immediate moment of awareness not in past or future).

reply to post by Galadriel

Here are three verses off the top of my head.
Joshua 24:15 But if you refuse to serve the LORD, then choose today whom you will serve. Would you prefer the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates? Or will it be the gods of the Amorites in whose land you now live? But as for me and my family, we will serve the LORD."

Malachi 2:1-2 "And now, you priests, this warning is for you. Listen to me and make up your minds to honor my name," says the LORD of Heaven's Armies, "or I will bring a terrible curse against you. I will curse even the blessings you receive. Indeed, I have already cursed them, because you have not taken my warning to heart.

Joel 3:14 Thousands upon thousands are waiting in the valley of decision. There the day of the LORD will soon arrive.

After reading some of the comments on this thread, I thought this verse would be pertinent.:
Luke 12:15 And he said to them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consists not in the abundance of the things which he possesses.

reply to post by Galadriel

-- so why did Peter deny Jesus out of fear?

He was actually being brave in a sort of way: rather than running away, he followed Jesus after he was arrested, right up to the courtyard of the building where he was being tried by the Jewish leaders.
He felt it necessary to lie to keep from being either arrested himself, or driven off.
He didn't realize he was denying Jesus in a disloyal sort of way until he heard the crows predicted by Jesus.
Jesus' prophecy then seemed to line up because Peter would have thought about what he was doing, while listening to the rooster. How many times was there crows would be a little fuzzy and irrelevant at that time, but what would have been important would have been that what he was doing was interpreted before the fact, as a denial of Jesus.
Now there could have been a lot of similar behavior by the other disciples around this confused time, but it probably would have been more effective the way it was told because it contrasts the claim of Peter's self-confidence in his ability to shape future events, with Jesus' wisdom and knowledge of human behavior, and with particular individual's makeups in a predictive way, and at the same time tying those events with things talked about in prophecy.

reply to post by Wonders


Here are some others, off the top of my head:

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.” Romans 8:28-30 [NIV]

It does not therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed on all the earth." [Exodus 9:16]

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"” Romans 9:16-19

But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"[Isaiah 29:16, 45:9]

Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?”
Romans 9:20-21

And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.Exodus33:19

And just for fun:

reply to post by Galadriel


fate or free will depends on the point of view from which you are looking at it.
Your own view- yes, free will
God's view- fate

you may have intentions to do something and it didn't happen, thats fate.
If you make it happen even then it was fate.

So you rather have free intentions, you may want to eradicate hunger from the world but may not be able to do it, your intentions will still count as a good deeds.

Its about having good intentions and trying the best to convert them into actions, if its fails it was fate, move on and keep trying..

God wants a sound and good heart.

Peter may have had good intentions but was a victim of fate.
Judas on the other hand had bad intentions and put them into action too.

Thanks for weighing in with your comments. Good food for thought.

Don't know why the fate/free will thing struck me so hard - and stayed on my mind. I do remember when I first saw Terminator 2, where she carves "no fate" with her knife and has an epiphany. That was such an eye-opener for me at the time - as I was sort of a believer in "destiny" at that time.

For a long time afterwards, I strongly operated under the belief that my life was all mine to make - and that I make the choices that lead me to the next situation, at which I'd make more more choices. It helped me to set goals, to turn my life around, to go to college, to lift myself out of poverty, to build my career -- believing there was no fate. I could decide what my life would be like.

I've also struggled with the idea of "surrender" -- even though I am not Christian per se, I believe in one God, one source, and sometimes feel that surrender to God means my will is aligned with God's will, and I'm not sure how to do that. But other times I think that if we are expressions of God, then what we do to express life is all God's will, the good, the bad, the ugly. It is all expression.

As you can see, sometimes I just confuse the heck outta myself!

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by Wonders

 

Here are some others, off the top of my head:

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.” Romans 8:28-30 [NIV]

It does not therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed on all the earth." [Exodus 9:16]

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"” Romans 9:16-19

But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"[Isaiah 29:16, 45:9]

Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?”
Romans 9:20-21

And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.Exodus33:19

Regarding the first bit of scripture you shared by Paul, there are others stating that IF you love Jesus, you'll obey his commands. Those who obey Jesus' commands then you're heeding the call to your purpose because God doesn't want anyone to perish but for all to come to repentance. Jesus said that by our words we are justified and by our words we are condemned. Many are called, few are chosen.

Regarding that scripture Paul said about effort, I recall Jesus saying:
Luke 13:24 "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.
Here's what the bible says about "it" depending on man's desire.
2 Thessalonians 2:10 He will use every kind of evil deception to fool those on their way to destruction, because they refuse to love and accept the truth that would save them.

Regarding mercy, here's what Jesus said:
Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.

I am reminded of two things:
Luke 14:18 "But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said, 'I have just bought a field, and I must go and see it. Please excuse me.'

and this: Paul vs. Jesus

reply to post by windword

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.” Romans 8:28-30 [NIV]

Which individuals in history do you think were 'glorified'?
How about . . none?
Who, as in a group, were . . is the church, as the heirs, those who are to inherent, as heirs of Jesus, someone God did know, and who was following the plan, and working with The Spirit to carry out that plan, we also work with The Spirit in a cooperative manner, to carry out that plan, to fulfill the numbers of the sons of God.

Paul is using the word 'justified' as a technical term to describe what is the analog of the election of Israel, applying the parallel of that in a new covenant way to the church.

Originally posted by vethumanbeing

Originally posted by JacobsLadder
I feel they had free will as we all do, however, there was also a plan laid out for them. I see it as a screenplay written for us and we have the choice to follow that screenplay or not. If we choose to not follow it, there is an "understudy" who can also fulfill the role set out. There are certain events that will happen regardless of whether our free will inclines us to be the people to bring those events to fruition or if the opportunity is given to someone else.

Jesus knew his fate; Judas was a pawn used by Jesus to fulfill prophecy; Judas was not let in on the little joke of his actual purpose. As someone said another would have been chosen/stepped in to fill the round peg in the square hole of betrayal, maybe Thomas. So obviously the 'freewill' arguement regarding Jesus is null, fate and destiny prevailed over the humans natural right of selfwill. Unless Jesus actually believed and participated, was part of the planning of its own birth, there is a problem. His utterances on the cross are a large clue as to his backpeddling, his doubts. There is the idea all things are planned before birth; no thing exists as accidental as it is all about your soul growth and what you have planned for your next journey. This is a belief system allowing for fate and destiny and also allows for you to change it (freewill) but to an uncertain conclusion, usually a negative outcome. You planned your parents you planned your exact insertion into this world situation.

edit on 25-3-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)

Since Christ was the spirit of God incarnate, free will didn't apply in his case, it was actually God's will, him being God.
As far as Judas, perhaps he WAS "in on it", there are many gnostics who believe he was but that isn't shared with us. He may not have betrayed Christ at all but made a great sacrifice for him that his plans could be carried out. Of course he could have chosen not to, then a different disciple would have been given the task and we probably still wouldn't have known that he was "in on it".

Not saying this is absolutely the case, but it is a possibility.