The Most Important Day

reply to post by NewAgeMan


You're clearly not a Christian. You are wasting everyone's time pretending otherwise.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity

As I said, you don't know what you're talking about. God doesn't "control everything" -- that's not what omnipotence and omniscience mean.

If "God" doesn't control everything, he isn't all-powerful.

You don't know what you're talking about.

Omnipotence DOESN'T mean that God controls everything. It means that he COULD control everything. As an Arminian, I do not believe that God controls everything, and there are no Christian theologies that I'm aware of that teach that God controls everything. Even hyper-Calvinists, who believe that everything is set in stone, do not present God as a puppet master, with human beings made redundant.

You should reconsider the sense of chiming in on subjects that you are so woefully ignorant of.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

You're clearly not a Christian. You are wasting everyone's time pretending otherwise.

What do you mean?

Also I'd like to see your reply to this post

post by NewAgeMan

reply to post by NewAgeMan

Also I'd like to see your reply to this post

We are a work in progress on the path of progress towards perfection, so our flaws are not to be cherished and celebrated, nor rejected, they are to be surfaced, and forgiven, so that we might grow psychologically and spiritually and contain more of the Spirit of Light and Life and Love that although boundless is framed by the law of Life and Love.

Here is my answer to your 'quest for perfection':

If you say that the goal is to be perfect, then you obviously have no idea what perfection is.

Perfection is lack of change. No thought, no emotion, absolutely no change in either mind, heart, or soul. Call it eternal suspension, for as long as you are perfect, you are motionless, unaware, unthinking, unfeeling. You effectively cease to exist in any fashion we are familiar with, because there is nothing distinguishing you from millions of other perfect beings.

To feel, to think, is to stray from the one razor line of perfection. It is to disagree, to have an other opinion, to have a distinct thought pattern and personality of your own. It is to be a break in the line of otherwise identical mentalities and emotional states. To be perfect is to be a statue amongst statues, forever dead because to be alive is to be flawed.

Imperfection allows change, which allows shift in focus and perspective, in thought and emotion, in understanding and awareness. All of the things we enjoy as human beings come from being imperfect. From being ignorant, weak, finite, and mortal. Love, joy, anger, grief, challenge, triumph....all of these emotions are only possible when you are imperfect, because imperfection invites adjustment and growth. When you are perfect, you do not grow. You remain spiritually stagnant, like a patient in a coma. You are no longer anything like what a human being is. Perfection is death, because no manner of life is perfect in the way you envision perfection.

If that is your desire, then you do not desire salvation. You desire damnation, the damnation of monotony, repetition, and stagnation. You know nothing of perfection. You are an ignorant, ungrateful mortal, and as such, you have much to learn about this life before you even begin to hope for the next. I'm sorry if I sound crass and unforgiving, but perfection is a curse I would not wish on my greatest enemy. Perfection is a more complete hell than any you can possibly suggest to me. Because perfection is a hell of monotony, and boredom is a greater agony than any torture you could suggest. Feeling pain is better than feeling nothing at all. You can't tell what is real and what isn't. You wish you could die, but you can't. It's like the same record playing over and over again, the theme song to an inescapable nightmare where you can do absolutely everything but the one thing that would bring you peace.

You know nothing of perfection, and your desire for it reeks of ignorant ingratitude. Be grateful for your flaws - you clearly have no idea the opportunities they present, the joys they provide of being able to feel and learn and grow. Even pain serves its purpose. But again, you have no appreciation for that sort of thing. You want to be something you know nothing about. But how could you? You're an unappreciative human. It's to be expected.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

That's your definition. In Biblical terms it means wholeness and integrity in a domain of limitless possibility, so it's the very gateway to real and authentic creativity or co-creativity as the case may be.

The fundamental spiritual nature of the human being is already perfect, whole and complete where all limitation and constraint is rooted in ignorance, and ego-projection where self-esteem matters more than the true self.

The Prodigal Son who on returning and who is enveloped by the father's warm embrace in spite of prior sins, is made perfect by that love.

You just don't get it.

It's as if your problem with God is God's perfection and holiness, and yet the provision of Christianity, although not a permissive framework for sin and evil - is forgiveness of sin as the resolution to the problem and paradox and as an invitation to participate in an evolutionary process of growth towards yes, perfection, as the beginning of a new creation. Perfection is just the end of what's not workable and the beginning of what is in wholeness and integrity whereby sin is a loss of integrity and wholeness.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

It's as if your problem with God is God's perfection and holiness, and yet the provision of Christianity, although not a permissive framework for sin and evil - is forgiveness of sin as the resolution to the problem and paradox and as an invitation to participate in an evolutionary process of growth towards yes, perfection, as the beginning of a new creation. Perfection is just the end of what's not workable and the beginning of what is in wholeness and integrity whereby sin is a loss of integrity and wholeness.

I have already told you my problem. The human condition will never be without flaw or weakness. I have accepted that. My problem is that the human race worships a being who, apparently, cannot accept it. As a result, we are forced to either deny our idol in order to accept who we are, or embrace our idol and condemn our very nature. We cannot worship a perfect idol and also embrace our imperfect nature. Either we aspire to whimsical perfection, or we accept the arduous lessons of imperfection. We cannot do both. And it is my personal belief that we are meant to accept who we are instead of spending forever pining after than which we cannot be. We are a teenage species, so it's obviously a very confusing time for us. But wishes will only get us so far, and it's about time we realized that what we admire is not necessarily what we need.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

It does have a certain absolutism that's hard to deal with or accept. I suspect at some level that it's a dilemma that we share with God each from our own perspective, which then leads me to suspect that it's a source of much sorrow, and humor and joy.

Between these two positions of our flawed nature relative to God's perfection when taken together with the inevitable attachment to an outcome and what I call the paradox of leadership - an argument could be made for the necessity of the Christian interpretation in so far as we are unable to engineer our own salvation.

I swear there's a great big shared joke just waiting in the wings.. maybe even one capable of deep-sixing altogether the need for the devil and hell because that kind of duality, based on our predicament may just be intolerable, both for us, and for God who is love.

It's a paradox of the division of absolute duality of good and evil and one in need of resolution, you would think, or maybe there's just some things we don't and cannot understand that are an absolute necessity from God's POV.

And it ought to be noted that of all the hell NDE's that no one actually ended up there permanently.. on that note, your new avatar animation looks like a version of hell..

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by adjensen

 

The ego and pride of man killed Jesus ie: we all killed Jesus. Thank God he forgave us!

So, it wasn't Jesus' PLAN to die? It wasn't foretold? Did he, Jesus-slash-god, use the numerous opportunities available to flee? God killed Jesus. That's it.

reply to post by jiggerj

No he did not flee, but sacrificed according to the will of God as the will to love. The reason was love, but he was crucified relative to the sinful egoic prideful aspect of humanity.

He may have also threaded the eye of the needle so to speak.. sharing the glory of absolute liberation in forgiveness with us (see my avatar for clues).

You know when you actually figure out why Jesus sacrificed, you yourself may become a Christian..

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

Originally posted by jiggerj

Explain how an all-powerful, all-knowing god isn't guilty? Was the plan to kill his son a random event or was it conceived, approved, with people being manipulated by god to bring this murder to its fruition?

Your ignorance and bias is showing jiggerj.

God's power was revealed in apparent weakness. Son and father are one, in love. You're basing your nonsense on a misconception of the relationship between the father and the son.

LOL I'm afraid it's your ignorance that's showing. When you you decide to go against the belief of BILLIONS that Jesus isn't 100% god?

Why are you denying your own belief that the crucifixion was planned by the almighty? Why do I need to remind you that at the last supper Jesus KNEW his fate, and yet he didn't run away. He DELIBERATELY went to be crucified. If he had left for parts unknown, then he wouldn't have been killed. You can't blame Jews or Romans or ANY feeble human for killing a GOD! That's absurd.

reply to post by jiggerj

What's absurd is your own continued efforts to kill him AGAIN!

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by jiggerj

 

No he did not flee, but sacrificed according to the will of God as the will to love. The reason was love, but he was crucified relative to the sinful egoic prideful aspect of humanity.

He may have also threaded the eye of the needle so to speak.. sharing the glory of absolute liberation in forgiveness with us (see my avatar for clues).

You know when you actually figure out why Jesus sacrificed, you yourself may become a Christian..

THREE TIMES here you claim that Jesus wasn't murdered, yet you persist in not seeing it and insist that we could have killed a god.

"No he did not flee" "but sacrificed according to the will of God" "when you actually figure out why Jesus sacrificed"

Since you admit that he sacrificed himself I don't even see what we're debating here?

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by jiggerj

 

What's absurd is your own continued efforts to kill him AGAIN!

Here. Please, PLEASE try to comprehend this:

HUMANS CANNOT KILL A GOD!

Not with a knife,
not with a cross.
Not even my ex-wife
or even my boss.

We can't kill him with a wish,
We can't kill him with a dish.

LOL Sorry, went a little Dr. Suess on ya. LOLOL
But the logic still stands.
No god can die if he doesn't want to die, therefore it's pure suicide (or sacrifice).

reply to post by jiggerj


I should have said try to kill him again..

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by jiggerj

 

I should have said try to kill him again..

Exactly!

reply to post by jiggerj

And if you can't beat 'em, join 'em..?

Hey Pops, maybe it's time to crack open the Gospels and start attending Church..?

I used to be an atheist, and a rebellious one at that, but I took another look with an open mind, and what used to be just boring nonsense JUMPED right out and off the pages, and the songs and the sermon. Suddenly it all made perfect sense once I dropped the negative bias prior to re-investigation.

Best Regards,

NAM

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
According to what is taught in churches today, "God" is responsible for the birth, personality, and life story of every character involved in the death of Jesus. "God" wrote the story, designed and created all the characters, and gave the green light.

What church teaches that?

I've studied a lot of different Protestant theologies, as well as Roman Catholic, and I've never heard any church teach that, though you (who isn't Christian and doesn't go to church) act like it's mainstream Christianity.

My 2c is that I've been to Church for more than a decade and I recognize/recognise that as fact.
because of these:
Omnipotence (from Latin: Omni Potens: "all power") is unlimited power
Omniscience (pron.: /ɒmˈnɪʃəns/[1]), mainly in religion, is the capacity to know everything that there is to know
Omnibenevolenc: unlimited or infinite benevolence"

or to put it another way....

name 1 person who's birth, personality, and life story that God was not responsible for (without using the get out of jail free card called "free will" which doesn't count here)

what I mean is - YES God gave the green light
OR
he didn't see it coming

either way doesn't look good !

reply to post by NewAgeMan

Suddenly it all made perfect sense

We just went round n' round about how no human can kill a god, and you add that Jesus isn't really god, but it all makes sense to you?

God gave us the commandment of Thou shalt not murder, but we are all forgiven our sins when (as you say) we murdered Jesus? That makes perfect sense to you?

God murders all the firstborn of Egypt solely because of the Pharaoh. (Slaps forehead) It makes perfect sense! NOT!

Abraham asked the angels of death if they would spare one righteous man if they found him in Sodom and Gomorrah. They say they will save one righteous man, so they let Lot go free, whereupon this righteous drunken man boinks his daughters.

It makes perfect sense!

I took another look with an open mind

Need I say what happened when you opened your mind that wide?

Originally posted by ted4d
name 1 person who's birth, personality, and life story that God was not responsible for (without using the get out of jail free card called "free will" which doesn't count here)

As noted earlier, I am an Arminian, so "free will" isn't a "get out of jail free" card.

Omnipotence means the ability, not the action, and omniscience means foreknowledge, not predestination.

I never said that God couldn't stop Jesus' death -- he could have, but didn't, and I asked why that made him "guilty" of something. If someone goes to punch you in the face, and I have the ability to stop them but don't, that doesn't mean that I punched you in the face, does it?

reply to post by jiggerj

I like your sense of humor that was funny! By "it" all makes perfect sense we might not be talking about the same thing.

This makes perfect sense.