Can you Deny Reincarnation exists?

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

So you're telling me that Jesus was the ONLY "Christian" that was killed that day? HA! Fat chance for that! If you think they killed Jesus and Jesus alone, you need a reality check.

Mark wasn't written until 70 CE, over 30 years after Jesus' death! You may want to brush up on your history a bit, LOL. That's years and years after Rome started persecuting Christians, and it was the first gospel written!

How were Paul's epistles written before the Christian persecutions when Saul's persecutions are in Acts? You're telling me that Paul converted before he stopped killing Christians?

You're joking right? Written before the persecutions? Uhhhh... no, try again!

edit on 19-3-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

I see you're ignoring the obvious similarities with Bacchus, a Roman god who came centuries before Jesus. Are you saying that's only a coincidence?

edit on 19-3-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

I'm positive only one Christian died... Because that is all that has ever existed. And for once, humanity nipped that problem at the bud. I doubt you can even find a single "Christian" relgion anytime after 50 AD that isn't completely diluted by paganism, or gnosticism. The whole premise of there existing christians is a lie...

reply to post by NOTurTypical

No, I responded to your notion that Hell, or separation from God for eternity was "illogical", when one of the greatest logical philosophers in human history understood it quite well.

Good for him I guess...

I understand it completely... and I find it illogical...

I tell ya what Aaron, Ill put my faith in reincarnation and trying to save myself in my next life. Gonna stick with redemption through Christ this go-round.

How's that?

That works for me...

Originally posted by Mykey057420
I love the narrow confinement of this discussion. Excellent trolling Sir! Nothing like baiting christians.

Carry on...

Im not trolling...

Its an honest question...

thanks anyways

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Akragon

 

Its called the The Dance of Shiva in Buddhism...

And its been happening since it all started... long before this earth existed as well... Now is just the lastest incarnation for all that are present.


I thought your original post said that we were only using the Bible to discuss this topic.

What verse in the Bible backs up your theory?

Think again...

Read the OP a little closer... Anyone that believes in the bible in some way is welcome here.... that includes non-chistians like myself, Christians, muslims... and anyone else that is interested... as long as they have some belief in said book.

And clearly what I posted to someone else... not yourself... wasn't from the bible...

Why would I try to back it up with a book that has nothing to do with it?

To prove that it doesn't exist, one verse is sufficient. It was quoted before in this thread:

And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment
Hebrews 9:27 NKJV

...plus the fact that the Bible does not anywhere mention a possibility of reincarnation.

Sometimes it's important as to what a book is not saying... giving it the same weight with regards to what it does say.

That is all.

reply to post by MarkJS


Amazing that people refuse to read... and ignore context...

Please read the original post... One other person quoted this same passage...

He got no replies because Its pointless to respond to people that can't read...

*sigh*

Truly Sad

:shk:

reply to post by Akragon

OK, I'll play.... You wrote in the OP:

Hebrews 9:27 is NOT in any way related to reincarnation... That chapter has NOTHING to do with reincarnation what so ever... It is not the subject being discussed...

The subject matter of that CHAPTER is whether or not Jesus had to die more then once to accomplish what he came to do....

thus it CAN NOT be used as an argument against reincarnation...

Let's look at that scripture a little more closely....

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once
Hebrews 9:27-28 NKJV

Yes, chapter 9 is describing Christ's work. Verses 27-28 is saying basically that "like how all men die, Christ died as well". The writer of Hebrews is doing a comparison and proving an equality. The proven comparison and equality does not diminish anything from the fact that "all men die once"....

At least, that's how I see it.

reply to post by MarkJS


Fair enough..

I'l be home from work in 15-20 mins... Then i will explain further since it seems to be necessary

Ttys

reply to post by MarkJS

Let's look at that scripture a little more closely....

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once

That's the first problem.... You're not looking at the scripture, you're looking at one verse from an entire chapter and making it mean something that isn't even being discussed. No where in that chapter is reincarnation being discussed or even alluded to...

its called Cherry picking... Heres an example of what you're doing...

Mat 16
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me:

Clearly from my cherry picked verse... Peter IS Satan because Jesus called him Satan... IF you read or quote anything from Peter you are siding with the devil... Obviously YOU are a Satanist!



Same idea my friend... You can't use that verse as something its not meant to be... Yes it says "men are destined to die once"... that does not mean the soul within that man can not be incarnated into another body after judgement... IF Gods judgement upon that man is that he must be reincarnated so said person can have another chance to learn more... What is said person going to do about it?

Perhaps he'll tell God reincarnation isn't specifically mentioned in the bible so he can't do that??

How does a man return to his mothers womb? Please refer to Job 1... Theres only one way my friend...

Jesus said to Nicodemus he must be born again... that statement is obvious, yet Christianity has designed an elaborate loophole around what was blatantly obvious... and made being "born again" something that happens in this life time...

Though I've met many so called "born again Christians" and 90% of the time they are the worst type... having just been introduced to the religion, they are fanatical, and pious towards their new faith... and are more then happy to judge everyone, and condemn people to hell on a whim...

Feel free to use that verse as an argument against reincarnation if you will... but you only look foolish when you do...No offence intended but its true.

it is NOT an argument against it... it was never meant to be an argument against it.... Nothing in the chapter even alludes to it...

It can't be even be implied that it is unless one finds it on google, or some Christian website trying to debunk reincarnation... and those sites are usually the worst cherry pickers out there...

reply to post by Akragon
Well, that's the most pointed verse I can think of w/regards to reincarnation. Many times, verses have more than one meaning, and one application. So the question begs... how do you know what those are? To get a correct interpretation (rather: correct interpretations), you have to go to the source.

That transitions me to my next related suggestion....

If you are open, there is another option. You can ask God. Yes, just ask God. To get a valid response, please preface your question- as to direct it to the God of the Multiverse/Universe... the God of Gods. For such an important question, no cheap substitute will do.

Heck, if that action doesn't answer your query with certainty, then nothing will.

Originally posted by MarkJS
reply to post by Akragon

 

Well, that's the most pointed verse I can think of w/regards to reincarnation. Many times, verses have more than one meaning, and one application. So the question begs... how do you know what those are? To get a correct interpretation (rather: correct interpretations), you have to go to the source.

That transitions me to my next related suggestion....

If you are open, there is another option. You can ask God. Yes, just ask God. To get a valid response, please preface your question- as to direct it to the God of the Multiverse/Universe... the God of Gods. For such an important question, no cheap substitute will do.

Heck, if that action doesn't answer your query with certainty, then nothing will.

You know... I like that response... a star for you...

Reincarnation makes perfect sense to me... On the other hand, the options Christianity gives its people is "heaven or hell"... which makes no sense what so ever...

Theres absolutely nothing logical about hell, or any lake of fire... Its notihng more then a myth designed to strike fear into the hearts of the populous... A fear tactic used to attain converts... that is the ONLY logical thing about hell...

On the other hand, reincarnation is exactly what Jesus said... YOU get what you give...

And by the way, there is nothing in the bible that specifically rejects reincarnation...

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by MarkJS

 

That's the first problem.... You're not looking at the scripture, you're looking at one verse from an entire chapter and making it mean something that isn't even being discussed. No where in that chapter is reincarnation being discussed or even alluded to...

its called Cherry picking...

Nowhere in the Bible is reincarnation being discussed, only resurrection, yet you pick one verse to try and prove your point while telling others that using another verse to counter it is off limits.

How does a man return to his mothers womb? Please refer to Job 1... Theres only one way my friend...

Jesus said to Nicodemus he must be born again... that statement is obvious, yet Christianity has designed an elaborate loophole around what was blatantly obvious... and made being "born again" something that happens in this life time...

Talk about cherry picking. You pick one verse where Jesus said "this is Elias" and now one verse where Nicodemus asks how a man returns to his mother's womb and try to wrap your whole theory around them. There are plenty of other verses in the Bible that put these verses into context, yet you refuse to accept them.

Feel free to use that verse as an argument against reincarnation if you will... but you only look foolish when you do...No offence intended but its true.

Do you want to know what looks foolish? Starting at least three threads on reincarnation, having the same discussions over and over again, yet ignoring all of it to start another thread again while acting like you've never heard any of it before.

Do you know how silly it looks to constantly try and use the Bible to justify your own personal beliefs while you try to debunk most of it at the same time? It doesn't make any sense!

reply to post by Deetermined

Nowhere in the Bible is reincarnation being discussed, only resurrection,

That is what you have been taught...

yet you pick one verse to try and prove your point while telling others that using another verse to counter it is off limits.

That one verse is used as a counter to reincarnation when that isn't the subject being discussed... it can't be used as a counter, its as simple as that...

Talk about cherry picking. You pick one verse where Jesus said "this is Elias" and now one verse where Nicodemus asks how a man returns to his mother's womb and try to wrap your whole theory around them.

That is because in that particular situation Jesus is using a definitive when he says THIS IS ELIAS...

In the case where Nicodemus asks... How does one return to the womb...

Lets take a closer look at that passage... Jesus explains it perfectly as always!

First we have to define some things...

Nicodemus: There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

The Pharisees were a head strong people... with clearly defined laws and rules... and he was one of the TOP people in that sect... Meaning nothing anyone said to him would change his mind...

Now the conversation...

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Jesus says...

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Now we are all born of flesh... and we are all born of spirit, yet most don't realize this... IF one doesn't make that connection that we are flesh and spirit... there is only one belief that exists in said persons mind...

That being "we are flesh"...

Nicodemus did not realize this... and clearly He never would because as I've already stated... Nothing will change his beliefs, they are set in stone... handed down by the "prophets" of the OT...

After this Jesus said, don't bother worrying about what I just said... You won't get it anyways...

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Yet instead of just moving on... Nicodemus still questions because he's trying to understand, but his beliefs... and even the hardness of his heart caused by his beliefs prevent him from understanding...

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

And Jesus stuffs his beliefs in his face in verse 10.... I love this!!

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

Jesus was the one person that was born that remembered exactly where he came from... He IS a witness to being with God.... No other man can make that claim...

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

IF Jesus said specifically you must be reincarnated because you will never learn in this life... Nicodemus would just laugh at him... according to pharisaical Beliefs, we only get one life... once chance.

Afterwords Jesus even attempts to explain it again...

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

NO man hath ascended to heaven but those that came from heaven... Even Jesus... who came from heaven...

IF any man is headed to heaven in his future... HE/SHE has already been there before...

Its very clear..

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jesus must be lifted up... meaning one must understand his teachings and practice them...

That IS the path...

Now while it is true that there are many paths.... there is ONE that is better then the rest...

There are plenty of other verses in the Bible that put these verses into context, yet you refuse to accept them.

Why should I accept what others have been taught?

Do you want to know what looks foolish? Starting at least three threads on reincarnation, having the same discussions over and over again, yet ignoring all of it to start another thread again while acting like you've never heard any of it before.

When did the topic of this thread shift to it being about me?

Do you know how silly it looks to constantly try and use the Bible to justify your own personal beliefs while you try to debunk most of it at the same time? It doesn't make any sense!

You haven't noticed that is exactly what Christians do? Yet there is 35k plus different denominations of Christianity?

It makes perfect sense... I believe in 4 books from the bible... which I can easily use to "debunk" any other book within the bible... I've been doing it for years... and I manage to win 90% of my arguments on our little forum by using ONLY those four books

And that is without using gnostic scriptures... or any other religion I've studied...

It doesn't have to make sense to you....

but if my arguments make sense to some... Im quite happy

IF Jesus had said to anyone, even his followers that reincarnation is a reality...

Even his followers would have laughed at him...

That is why its not mentioned specifically...

Either that or it was mentioned and it was removed

OR

not even considered important... and omitted

reply to post by Akragon

It makes perfect sense... I believe in 4 books from the bible... which I can easily use to "debunk" any other book within the bible... I've been doing it for years... and I manage to win 90% of my arguments on our little forum by using ONLY those four books

You are hysterical!

If there was even 1 book in the Bible that "debunked" the others, it never would have been included in the Bible in the first place. The fact that you think they do or the fact that you think you win 90% of your arguments with them shows how far off your interpretations really are. Just sayin'.

reply to post by Akragon

That is because in that particular situation Jesus is using a definitive when he says THIS IS ELIAS...

I don't think that "a definitive" is a grammatical term.
Do you mean that when Jesus says "he is Elijah", the 'he' is an emphatic pronoun?

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Akragon

 

It makes perfect sense... I believe in 4 books from the bible... which I can easily use to "debunk" any other book within the bible... I've been doing it for years... and I manage to win 90% of my arguments on our little forum by using ONLY those four books

You are hysterical!

If there was even 1 book in the Bible that "debunked" the others, it never would have been included in the Bible in the first place. The fact that you think they do or the fact that you think you win 90% of your arguments with them shows how far off your interpretations really are. Just sayin'.

Im glad I amuse you...

I thought that was a rather bold statement as well...

No matter... it is what it is...

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Akragon

 

That is because in that particular situation Jesus is using a definitive when he says THIS IS ELIAS...

I don't think that "a definitive" is a grammatical term.
Do you mean that when Jesus says "he is Elijah", the 'he' is an emphatic pronoun?

Well... im no English teacher either...

I was referring to the IS in that statement...

Most Christians take that as meaning "he came in the spirit of Elias".... but then HE wouldn't BE Elias would he?

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Lol!! I asked that question for a very specific reason.. that reason being the great philosopher Socrates grasped the apparent paradox of how a holy, perfect and righteous, just God could forgive sin apart from eternal punishment.

"It may be that deity can forgive sins but I cannot see how.". - Socrates writing to Plato

Yeah, Socrates also supports Eugenics (according to Plato), and he spent three days in jail awaiting condemnation......just like Jesus! And then met his death with honor!

Still not seeing the connections of the dots, are ya, NuT?

EDIT: Sorry, Akra, I know you told us who don't use the Bible to steer clear. My bad.

reply to post by wildtimes


You are always welcome in any discussion i post my dear...

Always!