Atheism vs. God-Belief (the final debate).

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by bb23108

 

Also, waking up to the Reality doesn't cause it to disappear.

True enough, but the questions become unnecessary because all arising becomes unnecessary. This does not mean we abandon the world - it is actually when we see it is not necessary that we are truly free and can live it fully, aligned to That in which all of it is arising. We can then truly be an example to others that this illusion is just that.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
And after all this time, now that we're here, should our highest goal really be to achieve a state of absolute nothingness? Why can't we just be ourselves as we are?

Who said anything about becoming a state of absolute nothingness? Whenever I speak about the Unconditional, I try to add other descriptors, like Love-Bliss, Conscious Light, Indivisible, etc. to minimize this presumption of nothingness. Unless of course that nothingness is the same as Conscious Light, Love-Bliss.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
There shouldn't be a conflict with the material world as the visible manifest reality, and no it doesn't imply that that's the whole of reality, and neither are we or the cosmos just a "thing" but a process and intrinsic to a mysterious creative process.

There is no conflict with the material world from the standpoint of Reality - it's just that the material world isn't necessary for one's happiness, though this does not mean it is lacks beauty and many other things. Once we deeply feel its non-necessity, these questions of why did God do this to me, how did the world get created, etc., etc., become obsolete for the reasons I mentioned earlier.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
And me I'm ok if "God" was here first and created me at all levels (whatever that means) within himself as a part of, and if the reason or the motive and catalyst to creation is love, what's wrong with an intimate, participatory "romance" between the beloved and beloved other which keeps love alive?

Yes, I am all for ecstatic communion with the Divine!

reply to post by bb23108

What do you think of the idea of an evolutionary spirituality..?

After all, physically, we're only at about year 13-15 billion or so they say, of what might very well be a 100 trillion year process (for this emanation of creation).

And at the end of it all, if at some level "we" are still around in some form or another, if it was up to "you" would you opt for another "round"? (the next round is ON THE HOUSE! lol)

Honestly I have to say that I find Buddist-style thought somewhat nihilistic, and terminal, and possibly leading to a type of peace and bliss that is lacking in humor as the essential ingredient.

"What does it profit a man to gain the WHOLE world but lose his own soul?" (unique personal charm, character, personality, passion-desire)

reply to post by NewAgeMan


You ae right, it must mean that we are indeed related to the one who created the universe, but we as real Christians seems to be seperated from all other religious people Christian and other, because the other do not believe in Christ and the Christians do not follow his word - 'do not judge, turn your cheek, wosrhip thy father.' No, instead our own people judge others, fight others, and convince them to worship other than the specific family relative of Jesus, his 'father.'

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by bb23108

 

What do you think of the idea of an evolutionary spirituality..?

Sure, why not. But as you are pointing out, it is extremely slow thus far! How many thousands upon thousands of lifetimes do we want to live in illusion? If we wait for such an evolution, for this self-transcendence to be with us from birth, we better be ready for the long very long haul!

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
Honestly I have to say that I find Buddist-style thought somewhat nihilistic, and terminal, and possibly leading to a type of peace and bliss that is lacking in humor as the essential ingredient.

Well most of the highly advanced spiritual traditions arose very early in the East as compared to the West. In the East the motive to get out of this material world was very very powerful due to the harshness of life, etc. Thus the ascending body-denying traditions of mysticism/yogic ascent/renunciation of desires, etc. - and the body-negating orientation of the transcendental schools of non-dualism - all tend to be based on escaping the body-mind.

Not much humor to be found given that motive, though you see it in some places - especially among some of the true realizers, and also in a lot of teachings of Zen. Plus, you gotta figure Marpa had some humor given what he put Milarepa through, eh? I sure hope Milarepa did!

I always found it interesting that Adi Da stated in the beginning of his very first book this:
"Throughout my life, I have been moved to Communicate (or to Reveal, to Transmit, and to Awaken) the fundamental Source and Substance and Condition of True Humor to others."

A pretty tough mission in this world, I would think!

reply to post by greyer

Until Christians recognize the all-inclusive nature of the love of God in Jesus Christ, we will not be in a position nor be able to adequately express his free invitation and free gift of life, in an irresistible manner, free of coercion. Until then perhaps sadly, the joke's on us. Personally I cannot count myself among an exclusive club who alone win the prize while everyone else remains forever excluded, which I suppose makes me a type of Christian Bodhisattva for reasons both kindhearted and tragically absurd (due to the ignorance of my Christian brethren). It makes me cry and laugh again just to write about it.

Originally posted by newageman
What do you think of the idea of an evolutionary spirituality..?

bb23108
Sure, why not. But as you are pointing out, it is extremely slow thus far! How many thousands upon thousands of lifetimes do we want to live in illusion? If we wait for such an evolution, for this self-transcendence to be with us from birth, we better be ready for the long very long haul!

Question, to bb23108 and Newageman; if indeed we are soul splinter groups from God; and divided so to experience itself as a human; there will eventually be a Godhead MAX realized; all done, the realization of ALL FUTURE PAST possibility of mankinds proclivity to help or destroy itself. There has to be at some point a realization by God that ALL potencial of love and evil has been reached. Does the Human race die and start over or ascend?

Originally posted by bb23108

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by bb23108

 

What do you think of the idea of an evolutionary spirituality..?

Sure, why not. But as you are pointing out, it is extremely slow thus far! How many thousands upon thousands of lifetimes do we want to live in illusion?

In truth I was actually suggesting if such a thing were possible that we might consider living in it, at some level, forever, so that forever we might also have the opportunity to contemplate, ever more deeply, the true face of God.. you know to keep the game alive for the sake of fun and enjoyment. Then, after 100 trillion more years, with the Akashic Record filled right to the brim whilst the last molecule winks out of existence - let's do the whole thing AGAIN! (of course we'll play a slightly different "game" each go 'round to keep things interesting i.e.: no eternal recurrence allowed).

reply to post by vethumanbeing

It's probably all of the above and everything in between (see my last post above for more).

P.S. The human being is not a "thing" but intrinsic to the whole process of creation, so even when our sun expands wiping out the earth (let's presume we didn't figure out how to "seed" the universe with our progeny), the human being, at some level, remains and simply transforms. There is no end to what already is, it's all enfolded and nothing is lost in eternity, but I guess that's another thread..or maybe not.

Originally posted by sacgamer25
Why are we still debating the meaning of the word atheist/atheism.

a•the•ism [ey-thee-iz-uhm] noun
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.
Not very complicated. And for claiming there is no common belief in atheism I suggest you don't understand the meaning of the word.
You have all made a concept that is simple very complicated because you refuse to be labeled. Don't call yourself atheist if you don't believe in atheism. And if you do agree than accept the label.

You directed this at me you coward (it shows up in my mailbox replies you sent it in response). No debate HERE. I have made no thing complicated simple. You suggest I misunderstand common claiming of a belief system; that I miss word meanings. Concepts of thought are left to philosophers, you are versed in Dictionary Language and should know that. I am not an atheist, and if you misconscrued me as one you would be dead wrong. Veteran Human Being is a Gnostic (and I approve this message).

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
Question, to bb23108 and Newageman; if indeed we are soul splinter groups from God; and divided so to experience itself as a human; there will eventually be a Godhead MAX realized; all done, the realization of ALL FUTURE PAST possibility of mankinds proclivity to help or destroy itself. There has to be at some point a realization by God that ALL potencial of love and evil has been reached. Does the Human race die and start over or ascend?

I can't assume that we have to reach some potential for evil as that is not the nature of the Divine. However, love is the means for communion with the Divine, and the more we commune, the more we deepen in love. This is what will greatly quicken the evolution of mankind, although the body-minds will still die. However, the deeper personalities will continue life after life until rebirth is no longer necessary.

Not sure if that answers your question VHB.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
In truth I was actually suggesting if such a thing were possible that we might consider living in it, at some level, forever, so that forever we might also have the opportunity to contemplate, ever more deeply, the true face of God.. you know to keep the game alive for the sake of fun and enjoyment. Then, after 100 trillion more years, with the Akashic Record filled right to the brim whilst the last molecule winks out of existence - let's do the whole thing AGAIN! (of course we'll play a slightly different "game" each go 'round to keep things interesting i.e.: no eternal recurrence allowed).

Whoa - my day planner does not go out 100 trillion years! Dude, I thought I planned well in advance, but this is yet another record you broke today, I do believe!

For realizers all such choices are spontaneous acts of love. So if one is a realizer of Truth, Love will decide on such matters, yes?

Originally posted by bb23108
I always found it interesting that Adi Da stated in the beginning of his very first book this:
"Throughout my life, I have been moved to Communicate (or to Reveal, to Transmit, and to Awaken) the fundamental Source and Substance and Condition of True Humor to others."

A pretty tough mission in this world, I would think!

See? You're pretty funny yourself!

Just don't underestimate your fellow man, overall, in the fullness of time and history, because at some level there's a mystical universal man of which we each are a magnificent part or aspect, including Adi Da Samraj (aka Bubba Free John) each in his own capacity to receive and get a joke at his own ego and prior ignorance's expense, we've got it in us to be VERY funny, each and every one of us, because we are and ultimately were each screwed up in our own unique way, Adi Da himself not excluded. He was a big something in his nothingness-everythingness.

In truth I've found his argument to be about the most delightful thing I've ever encountered, and even now I'm doing the Sadhana..

The most delightful and humorous thing I've ever run across, up to a point and get that - it's the point where Adi Da Samraj went and made it all about HIM!

He was double-bind to Narcissus' final trick! Even now the spirit of Adi Da laughs with me, because he was just too smart not to get the best joke of all time told by the invisible one who's at head of the table but not at the table, and since he went and took the head of the table (Christ's position) you'll find him to your immediate left with Christ on your right, with no one, not even yourself, excluded!

It's inevitable.

That's the funny part of it. Therefore how blessed are we to be among the first to get the joke of man while it's still on the way because i would not wish it upon my worst enemy to get it and lose one's own sense of humor in the process, as "groaner" you might say, not good.

My prayer too is for all people and for all the world, that we might evolve into a place, or a state of mind and being which was never an imposition upon the mind of man to begin with as what Adi Da would call our "native" state.

And there's nothing to it, it's just an action we were performing through the ongoing unfolding present moment so once re-cognized then there it is!

Authentically inauthentic - it's the best we can do, and even Adi Da went and lost his sense of humor by taking himself all too seriously as an "avataric incarnation".

It's easy enough to become a "walk on".. and then play all the roles you play and would like to play, to the very hilt never forgetting that who you are is the creative one, the humorous playful child that we really are at heart, and none of it ever went away either, it was already still there, available as our already-always state of mind - our normal self, so it's an "unexcelled" uncaused enlightenment and that's funny too, how seriously we took ourselves in taking who were were being as REAL when all the while we were the epitomy of absurdity. OMG that's just too much.

Then with the mask on or off we can turn to face the Reality which includes by neccessity - THE WHOLE OF ALL CREATION!

So we're royally screwed you see in the best possible way, whereby the TRUTH is an arrow or a wedge of simple reason and logic and you don't have to be the self professed incarnation of God himself to deduce it and discover it, just a fool for the Truth nothing more.

We each have to realize the joke that was on "us" once we know ourselves by comparison (to what was absurd and ridiculous) to be something of a whole other magnitude of existence and reality in communion with the eternal Godhead as the very center and source of both life AND love, logic and reason AND spirit combined. In the final analysis there's no other real knowledge except the knowledge of personal experience.

It is indeed the mirthful humor of true understanding, that is what Adi Da really wanted for us, while presuming that he alone had to do the heavy lifting and who knows maybe he was right and just being generous.

Then again it was all about HIS company as the "guru" and never about enjoying the company of others and that was his "schtick", as a means of ensuring that he would enjoy THEIR company for his whole life. Sadly he had a lot of "turnover".

Ah God love him, for his laughter, until he all but lost it as he aged (becoming more serious).

I love him though like a brother, and now that I've appropriated his "argument" his lives with me and in me as a part of my humor, but he's still to my left at Christ's table!!!

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

It's probably all of the above and everything in between (see my last post above for more).

P.S. The human being is not a "thing" but intrinsic to the whole process of creation, so even when our sun expands wiping out the earth (let's presume we didn't figure out how to "seed" the universe with our progeny), the human being, at some level, remains and simply transforms. There is no end to what already is, it's all enfolded and nothing is lost in eternity, but I guess that's another thread..or maybe not.

The human is thoughtform manefested physically to able to manipulate matter that is all.
Everything is excelerating at breakneck speed. There is going to be a point where future and present and past will collide. It all happens at once in the non-physical, here there has to be a breaking down or through of the paradyms. It is inevitable. Maybe a new thread.

reply to post by bb23108

Yes, but you missed the humor of the realization, you MISSED it! (how could you you're so funny).

It's an affirmation in the negation of a negation and for all the wrong reasons by some of the most "enlightened" people to walk the earth (including Ad Di - op there he is again! told you he's still alive!) - to escape the joy of living in the present moment. What else is there?

Originally posted by bb23108

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
In truth I was actually suggesting if such a thing were possible that we might consider living in it, at some level, forever, so that forever we might also have the opportunity to contemplate, ever more deeply, the true face of God.. you know to keep the game alive for the sake of fun and enjoyment. Then, after 100 trillion more years, with the Akashic Record filled right to the brim whilst the last molecule winks out of existence - let's do the whole thing AGAIN! (of course we'll play a slightly different "game" each go 'round to keep things interesting i.e.: no eternal recurrence allowed).

Whoa - my day planner does not go out 100 trillion years! Dude, I thought I planned well in advance, but this is yet another record you broke today, I do believe!

For realizers all such choices are spontaneous acts of love. So if one is a realizer of Truth, Love will decide on such matters, yes?

Yes, absolutely, and so will the humor and FUN of Love's reason.



To get there, to the state of willingly choosing the path of the Bodhisattva is to come into the experience of the eternal life already now.

And once reasons leads to it's inexorable conclusion, that this is the only choice worth making (brotherhood of man, all in - moves pile of chips forward), the eternal and perhaps even the choice itself is made available, wherein death has no meaning and that's the love of Bhakti which is true devotional love and the love eternal.

Luv,

NAM

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by bb23108

 

Yes, but you missed the humor of the realization, you MISSED it! (how could you you're so funny).

Then it must be time for me to retire to the deep sleep state where no objects arise and no ego-I is thereby stimulated. Ahhhh, deep sleep - the poor man's samadhi. Deep sleep (beyond dreaming) proves we don't inherently need objects to exist, to be aware, to be conscious.

Take care and good night.

Originally posted by bb23108

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
Question, to bb23108 and Newageman; if indeed we are soul splinter groups from God; and divided so to experience itself as a human; there will eventually be a Godhead MAX realized; all done, the realization of ALL FUTURE PAST possibility of mankinds proclivity to help or destroy itself. There has to be at some point a realization by God that ALL potencial of love and evil has been reached. Does the Human race die and start over or ascend?

I can't assume that we have to reach some potential for evil as that is not the nature of the Divine. However, love is the means for communion with the Divine, and the more we commune, the more we deepen in love. This is what will greatly quicken the evolution of mankind, although the body-minds will still die. However, the deeper personalities will continue life after life until rebirth is no longer necessary.

Not sure if that answers your question VHB.

It seems all aspects of love and hate have to reach a pinacle. Love is a force, not sure but hate seems to be the easy opposite hanger on same force just negative. I think we are very close to having discovered every aspect of every nature of love expression, evil. I cannot think of anything more than that has been diagnosed, examined judicially. What is left, every aborration of individual human character defect; nations at war has been demonstrated by the human specie seemingly under control. What occures now is the specific oddities; no stone left unturned; Humans that are insane and have no idea why (dryer lint eaters, balloon poppers 'erotic', adult babies, etc..)

Originally posted by vethumanbeing

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

It's probably all of the above and everything in between (see my last post above for more).

P.S. The human being is not a "thing" but intrinsic to the whole process of creation, so even when our sun expands wiping out the earth (let's presume we didn't figure out how to "seed" the universe with our progeny), the human being, at some level, remains and simply transforms. There is no end to what already is, it's all enfolded and nothing is lost in eternity, but I guess that's another thread..or maybe not.

The human is thoughtform manefested physically to able to manipulate matter that is all.
Everything is excelerating at breakneck speed. There is going to be a point where future and present and past will collide. It all happens at once in the non-physical, here there has to be a breaking down or through of the paradyms. It is inevitable. Maybe a new thread.

No this thread here.

Let's tear down the veil so that both atheist and believer can each find their own place at the great table and the celebration of all ages prepared for none other than they themselves, and if I can I'll be the doorman. __/

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
He was double-bind to Narcissus' final trick! Even now the spirit of Adi Da laughs with me, because he was just too smart not to get the best joke of all time told by the invisible one who's at head of the table but not at the table, and since he went and took the head of the table (Christ's position) you'll find him to your immediate left with Christ on your right, with no one, not even yourself, excluded!

It's inevitable.

I should have said to the right of Christ, but all the way around so that in the end there are no goats to the left, and no doubt the table will fill with some having to wait a turn or two to make it there, but we'll all get there somehow in the end and my oh my will we ever laugh and have such stories, such ridiculous, absurd, comedic stories to tell! It will be a real celebration, or is that right now when it's supposed to start..?

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

It's probably all of the above and everything in between (see my last post above for more).

P.S. The human being is not a "thing" but intrinsic to the whole process of creation, so even when our sun expands wiping out the earth (let's presume we didn't figure out how to "seed" the universe with our progeny), the human being, at some level, remains and simply transforms. There is no end to what already is, it's all enfolded and nothing is lost in eternity, but I guess that's another thread..or maybe not.

The human is thoughtform manefested physically to able to manipulate matter that is all.
Everything is excelerating at breakneck speed. There is going to be a point where future and present and past will collide. It all happens at once in the non-physical, here there has to be a breaking down or through of the paradyms. It is inevitable. Maybe a new thread.

[i]NewAgeMan
No this thread here.
Let's tear down the veil so that both atheist and believer can each find their own place at the great table and the celebration of all ages prepared for none other than they themselves, and if I can I'll be the doorman. __/

Challenge to the mystified. I really dont think they care atheists are docile creatures.