Hugo Chavez: The War On Demcracy

reply to post by mekhanics

I do not know how that video escaped my attention for so long. Thanks for posting. S&F.I'm with you and the millions of citizens of Venezuela in my respect for Chavez.

Sorry, it's all bull#.

I'm not understand correlation of Hugo Chavez being a great leader because speculated amount of 9 million showed up his funeral. By that logic, the Pope is an amazing all around character that we should support because millions go to see him whenever he speaks. By that logic, we should all smoke cigarettes because millions of people can't be wrong if they're doing it.

Hugo Chavez ISN'T ANY different than ANY corrupt politician in America. I don't support a man that made many Venezuelans flee out of their country. Like I said in this thread, go to Caracas then talk to me how Venezuela is doing so much better now. Because it isn't.

reply to post by 33055

I'm not understand correlation of Hugo Chavez being a great leader because speculated amount of 9 million showed up his funeral.

That is your correlation. Chavez is thought of by HIS supporters to be a great leader because of the things he achieved for them. The estimated 9 million showed the respect he was held in.

By that logic, the Pope is an amazing all around character that we should support because millions go to see him whenever he speaks.

Obviously there are many that respect the position he holds

By that logic, we should all smoke cigarettes because millions of people can't be wrong if they're doing it.

Oh dear.

Hugo Chavez ISN'T ANY different than ANY corrupt politician in America.

That is your opinion many others think differently

I don't support a man that made many Venezuelans flee out of their country.

As you have had pointed out before. There are always winners and losers. In this case those that were always winners before Chavez became losers, and the poor became the winners for a change.

Like I said in this thread, go to Caracas then talk to me how Venezuela is doing so much better now. Because it isn't.

Around 9 million would disagree and they live there.

Originally posted by colin42
reply to post by 33055

 

I'm not understanding correlation of Hugo Chavez being a great leader because speculated amount of 9 million showed up his funeral.

That is your correlation. Chavez is thought of by HIS supporters to be a great leader because of the things he achieved for them. The estimated 9 million showed the respect he was held in.

By that logic, the Pope is an amazing all around character that we should support because millions go to see him whenever he speaks.

Obviously there are many that respect the position he holds

By that logic, we should all smoke cigarettes because millions of people can't be wrong if they're doing it.

Oh dear.

Hugo Chavez ISN'T ANY different than ANY corrupt politician in America.

That is your opinion many others think differently

I don't support a man that made many Venezuelans flee out of their country.

As you have had pointed out before. There are always winners and losers. In this case those that were always winners before Chavez became losers, and the poor became the winners for a change.

Like I said in this thread, go to Caracas then talk to me how Venezuela is doing so much better now. Because it isn't.

Around 9 million would disagree and they live there.

Lets not throw around 9 million people like ifs it any accurate statement. I merely stated that it was speculated number because a poster here said so. There's no truth to it. The accurate reported number is closer to 2 million. Venezuela has a population of almost 30 million people.

reply to post by 33055

Lets not throw around 9 million people like ifs it any accurate statement. I merely stated that it was speculated number because a poster here said so. There's no truth to it. The accurate reported number is closer to 2 million. Venezuela has a population of almost 30 million people.

I made a point of writing approx 9 million and around 9 million.

After the above quoted from you, please tell me how you can claim accurate figures of 2 million? Look you may want things to be true to fit your silly prejudices but that does not make them true.

Dont you find it strange that all the things your governments and your press has told you about Chavez you can not find evidence of and I am sure if you could you would.

I find it strange that NONE of the anti Chavez lynch mob will watch the videos linked to and certainly will not comment on them. What is your views on the information in either video?

Originally posted by colin42

Dont you find it strange that all the things your governments and your press has told you about Chavez you can not find evidence of and I am sure if you could you would.

I find it strange that NONE of the anti Chavez lynch mob will watch the videos linked to and certainly will not comment on them. What is your views on the information in either video?

I'm still not sure what it is we're supposed to be looking for "evidence" of. Can we use Chavez's own words if we find we need evidence of something?. How about we use the words of the people who fled from Venezuela? Yeah yeah yeah - I already know your story is that they are somehow magically rich, but that version of your reality doesn't stand up at ground level... not the ones I know, anyhow. They work, and work their asses off, every day. One girl's parents sacrificed themselves to get the kids here, so that the kids could have a future. The parents are still stuck there in Venezuela, and the kids work here, everyday, building their futures one brick at a time and hoping to someday be able to pool their money and get their parents out of there. Still, they assure me that if they were working like that in Venezuela, they could never work hard enough to have hope for a future of freedom.

We seem to find different things "strange", which I suppose is to be expected. I find it strange that ALL of the Chavez Beatification Committee base their entire arguments on Youtube videos, and insist we watch them as if life itself depended on it.

Since you asked so nicely, I'll comment on your videos. My statement in the matter regarding the videos is this: Youtube is for entertainment purposes, and is not a serious research tool. If it were a serious research tool, Nibiru would have certainly obliterated us by now. You , however, may trust Youtube videos as "serious evidence" all you please. It takes all kinds, I suppose. You may request us to believe evidence for the Sainthood of Chavez emanating from the same source as evidence for the existence of Nibiru all you please, but we are in no way bound to accept it as fact without some other corroborating evidence.

Unless you are in it for the entertainment value, Youtube videos are a waste of minutes to hours of your life that you can NEVER have refunded to you. Come to think of it, some of them are really not very entertaining, either. It's a minefield out there.

reply to post by nenothtu
I am not sure how you cannot understand when you have been dismissed?

Since you asked so nicely, I'll comment on your videos. My statement in the matter regarding the videos is this: Youtube is for entertainment purposes, and is not a serious research tool.

This is an example of why you have been dismissed. You see these documentaries as ENTERTAINMENT? That is your considered response Illustrating anything you have to say on this subject is of no value as I have told you now several times.

Dismissed as irrelevant.

Hi ATS.

I haven't posted in a while but felt compelled to do so since this thread is glorifying a very irresponsible leader, aka Chavez.

No doubt that he has his followers like any other dictators around the world. I'm an Iranian for the record and we have maybe arguably the worst current dictatorship in the world. Trust me on this one, the islamic republic of Iran is pure evil. They may talk sense to some but their intentions are clear to the Iranian people. We want them out.

What has this to do with Chavez you may ask? Well Ahmadinejad's best buddy was Chavez. Ahmadinejad met with him in Venezuela 5 times since he took office in 2005. Chavez visited Iran 11 or 13 times since 1999. So the relationship between Chavez's regime and the Islamo fascist republic of Iran was/is needless to say an excellent one.

They helped each other by sharing military and intelligence. Why did Chavez deal with such an evil regime? I know why, because they have a common enemy. USA. And this is where he is irresponsible. A regime like mine that suppresses its people, torture, imprison and kill dissidents and students for wanting more freedom and transparency, is purely unwise to help them out to get better at it. And this is what Chavez and his likes do around the world. He can be the best leader (not believing it for one second) in venezuela but a hated man somewhere else.

And before someone starts telling me how important it is to fight the great powers to have more equal share around the world, let me say this: I fully agree. But I ask you this, If a killer tells everyone how bad killing is, does his word has any value? I think not.

Islamic Regime of Iran says every now and then nice things, like equality and freedom but since they do exactly the opposite at home these words are just words.

To me Chavez was not a good leader and the world is better off without him. Nevertheless since I'm a fighter for peace I can only say: RIP Hugo Chavez, because he was a human being, not because he was a leader or fighter.

Now you guys can shred me to pieces. I'm all ear (german expression).

Ignore my grammar and spelling.

Thanks for reading.
StringTh

reply to post by StringTh
I don’t agree that people have been glorifying Chavez. I also don’t believe comparing Venezuela to Iran is a fair comparison either.

What you see in this thread is a direct result of those that are painting Chavez as some sort of monster based on the propaganda of the USA and its Allies that they can find no evidence to justify it which is not the case with Iran.

Iran and Venezuela have many common interests including oil not just the hostile USA and its Allies so these meetings contents could be many topics, who knows.

Let me ask you if the USA was not intent on destabilisation of foreign governments. If the USA did not back terrorists and torture. If the USA and its Allies acted as the democracies they claim to be would Ahmadinejad be able to stir up hatred in his people against them?

This thread is called 'Hugo Chavez: The War On Democracy'. But when asked if any of those claiming Chavez is the criminal have even looked at the videos supplied NONE show any evidence of doing so, all we see is unfounded, baseless attacks from acceptance of western propaganda. That is not democracy in action.

You get the government you deserve. Allowing them to go unchallenged is what we see here. Those that claim Chavez is dirty can supply nothing concrete to show it yet they are adamant it is true.

The reasons why I have continually asked if posters here have watched the videos is because they offer a different story than the ones we have been fed. They would add balance to this discussion and I believe that is why those opposed to Chavez refuse to watch them.

I ask you to do the same and then see if the picture is not a tad more complex than you claim

Originally posted by colin42
reply to post by nenothtu

 

I am not sure how you cannot understand when you have been dismissed?

Oh, I understand when I've been "dismissed", but you apparently fail to realize that ain't your call. I'm still waiting for you to come up with something to support your position. Not my problem if you can't address my position, and therefore must attempt to "dismiss" me in an effort to save face.

This is an example of why you have been dismissed. You see these documentaries as ENTERTAINMENT? That is your considered response

Illustrating anything you have to say on this subject is of no value as I have told you now several times.

Dismissed as irrelevant.

No. I didn't see the videos as "entertainment" - they apparently don't even have that much value. There's not much propaganda that does. Again, just because you can't articulate a coherent thought of your own on the subject without falling back to the failsafe of a Youtube video to do the hard work for you, does not equate to ME not having "anything of value" to say.

At this point it's probably better for you to just walk away, before you again demonstrate that your "dismissal" is irrelevant and a cover for having no original thoughts of your own.

Colin, I actually can provide evidence as to why Chavez wasn't this great leader for Venezuela.

In fact, I even brought up evidence in this very thread. If you can find my name on this thread, you'll know that I used people who LIVED in Venezuela while Chavez as president as my source. I really don't know how much more proof I can provide but you seem to want to see numbers or something written as evidence.




Venezuela isn't doing any better than the average Latin America country. Why is the country with the largest oil reserves in the world doing just as good as the rest of the continent? Why isn't it prospering?





Check this out, they are and have been pumping less and less oil since Chavez has ruled Venezuela. It's a fair reason why Venezuela's growth has been underwhelming. His legacy after his death will prove to the world that he wasn't a great leader by any means.

And this keeps being stated repeatedly. Ask yourself this... Would a great leader keep 2 billion dollars to himself? No, he #ing wouldn't.

reply to post by nenothtu

Oh, I understand when I've been "dismissed", but you apparently fail to realize that ain't your call.

It really is my call and you can bet your house on it. Let's see how many replies on this thread you get from me if you intend to carry on the way you have. Dismissed.

reply to post by 33055
I have been out celebrating the wifes birthday. I will get back to you. I am in no fit state at the moment to address you post but I can see you have a point to make.

Originally posted by 33055

Check this out, they are and have been pumping less and less oil since Chavez has ruled Venezuela. It's a fair reason why Venezuela's growth has been underwhelming.

Check this out ...

Venezuela's crude oil production was 3.12 million barrels a day when Chávez took office in 1999, and in 2007 was 2.949 million barrels a day, while oil prices increased 660% from 1998 to 2008, leading to a significant increase in earnings.

In response to the low oil prices at the end of the 1990s, Chavez played a leading role within the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) to reinvigorate that organization and obtain members' adherence to lower production quotas designed to drive up the oil price

... and if you could use your beautiful, god given brain you would understand why. My crystal ball is sensing a middle finger being raised from Chavez' grave right about now.

reply to post by 33055
I looked at your graphs. Graphs are nothing if not seen in context.

Ok head has cleared.

No one is prepared to look at the mountain so I will bring it to you.

1988 Venezuela is a mess. The IMF (Yeah everyone’s friend) imposed austerity measures. Sounds familiar? It should as 100’s maybe 1000’s died.

1992 Chavez failed coup. Although he had support he took responsibility publically. My guess is that he had a huge support and that is why he lived past that but that is my guess.

1993 Perez was put on trial for embezzlement of 17 million dollars US.

1998 With inflation already at 70% Chavez was ELECTED. This was not a successful economy unless you can show 70% inflation is a good place to be.

Over the next 3 years Chavez made good his promises. Tell me how many politician you know that did the same. Bush #1? Bush #2? Obama? Blair? Please try hard to show examples. Dont remember a promise of unrelenting war and dead and maimed youth.

What was claimed a war via the media took place. So much for Chavez controlling the media and this lead the failed coup against him.

15:06 The bridge incident. If you don’t intend to look any further please comment on this. If you do not wish to look at this then you prove you are biased beyond belief and there is no need for further dialog between us.

The IMF usually slow to give an answer gave immediate support for the criminal coup backed by the USA. Oil prices dropped as US diplomats said our friends would now be in charge of the oil.

What saved Chavez was his people. The poor who came out onto the streets and demanded his return and the regular enlisted soldiers that refused to kill him but instead supported him.

25:00 The MANAGERS of the oil companies held a strike? The managers went on strike? Well blow me down. Seen many times in history the mill owners locked out the workers to starve them into submission. For god’s sake wake up. I should not need to be telling you this.

Once Chavez got control of oil production it doubled. Chavez maintains control of natural resources is vital. That includes the skilled workforce needed. He is educating his people for that task

So what are you going to tell me, the devil finds work for idle hands?

I am about a third of the way through something the anti's refuse to see. Feel free to comment but at least make them informed comments not opinion formed from nothing more than one sided propaganda.

Originally posted by Exitt

Originally posted by 33055

Check this out, they are and have been pumping less and less oil since Chavez has ruled Venezuela. It's a fair reason why Venezuela's growth has been underwhelming.

Check this out ...

Venezuela's crude oil production was 3.12 million barrels a day when Chávez took office in 1999, and in 2007 was 2.949 million barrels a day, while oil prices increased 660% from 1998 to 2008, leading to a significant increase in earnings.

In response to the low oil prices at the end of the 1990s, Chavez played a leading role within the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) to reinvigorate that organization and obtain members' adherence to lower production quotas designed to drive up the oil price

... and if you could use your beautiful, god given brain you would understand why. My crystal ball is sensing a middle finger being raised from Chavez' grave right about now.

edit on 10-3-2013 by Exitt because: funksoulbrother

I'm not sure why you chose to belittle anyone if only it makes you feel better. Quite frankly, you can shove your crystal ball where the sun don't shine.

Originally posted by colin42
reply to post by 33055

 

Over the next 3 years Chavez made good his promises. Tell me how many politician you know that did the same. Bush #1? Bush #2? Obama? Blair? Please try hard to show examples. Dont remember a promise of unrelenting war and dead and maimed youth.

Ok, I feel like I'm being profiled here. I don't support any of these politicians mentioned above just like I certainly don't support a man like Hugo Chavez. What my opinion of what a great leader is might differ from yours. To me, Hugo Chavez wasn't a man of the people as much as he's a man out for himself. To me, you're not a great leader if you jail judges without any form of a trial, which is what Hugo Chavez has done in the past.

www.guardian.co.uk...

That's corruption whether you want to downplay it or not. I can't trust someone like that, apparently a lot of Venezuelans couldn't either.

15:06 The bridge incident. If you don’t intend to look any further please comment on this. If you do not wish to look at this then you prove you are biased beyond belief and there is no need for further dialog between us.

You know, you really don't have to be so stuck-up. I looked at the footage, there's no doubt in my mind that the media twists things around to have made Hugo Chavez look bad. If I'm correct, that footage from the early 2000s. Chavez has become more powerful then ever since then. If you doubt Chavez has no authority over what appears in the Venezuelan media then look into it. He has the media by the balls and requires to show hours of Hugo Chavez talking.

25:00 The MANAGERS of the oil companies held a strike? The managers went on strike? Well blow me down. Seen many times in history the mill owners locked out the workers to starve them into submission. For god’s sake wake up. I should not need to be telling you this.

Once Chavez got control of oil production it doubled. Chavez maintains control of natural resources is vital. That includes the skilled workforce needed. He is educating his people for that task

So what are you going to tell me, the devil finds work for idle hands?

I am about a third of the way through something the anti's refuse to see. Feel free to comment but at least make them informed comments not opinion formed from nothing more than one sided propaganda.

What is with ATS and its posters that they feel to belittle people at any opportunity they get. It's hard to maintain a well-rounded discussion when I'm having it with someone like you. Be above this BS that you're displaying. Its pitiful, man. If you're trying to inform then do it with some self-respect. I have no problem admitting I'm wrong if I see a great point proven.

Your only informed comments are coming from a documentary that you're swearing by as the truth. Oliver Stone, the director, has inaccurate accounts of events in the past. He's claim that Hitler did more damage to Russians than Jews. (and if there's truth to it, lemme know, I'm curious).

www.nytimes.com...

The funny about this documentary is that it did pretty good box office everywhere except Chavez's OWN country VENEZUELA.

www.csmonitor.com...

It bombed in Venezuela. I wonder why. Article suggested Venezuelans don't take kindly to excessive flattery. Another side suggest that it really isn't the reality that Venezuela portrays.

Would you really live in a country where the homicide rate moves up every year? Is that a great country to live in?

Originally posted by 33055

I'm not sure why you chose to belittle anyone if only it makes you feel better.

This has nothing to do with me (or you) and has everything to do with Chavez' legacy.
Therefore I will be watching this thread like a hawk and every little 'lie told often enough' will never become the truth because I will call you out on it, period. Stop trying.

hasta la victoria siempre 'bro'

reply to post by 33055

Ok, I feel like I'm being profiled here.

Dont be so silly. If you look at the timeline I set out and compare it with your graphs they start to tell a different story,

I don't support any of these politicians mentioned above just like I certainly don't support a man like Hugo Chavez. What my opinion of what a great leader is might differ from yours. To me, Hugo Chavez wasn't a man of the people as much as he's a man out for himself.

Truely do you know any leader in history that was not?

To me, you're not a great leader if you jail judges without any form of a trial, which is what Hugo Chavez has done in the past.

I dont know the whole story and neither do you which has been my point throughout this thread. Yep she seems to have spent to long in jail without trial. That happens in more places than Venezuela you know.

That's corruption whether you want to downplay it or not. I can't trust someone like that, apparently a lot of Venezuelans couldn't either.

Perhaps and perhaps not. It is clear she needs to be tried or released.

You know, you really don't have to be so stuck-up. I looked at the footage, there's no doubt in my mind that the media twists things around to have made Hugo Chavez look bad. If I'm correct, that footage from the early 2000s.

If you have read this thread you would know my post was not just aimed at you. You are the first to address the video and cudos to you for doing so. I do think that you have underestimated what the footage was meant to do. This so called attack on the protesters that were purposely manovred into place was purley as an excuse to overthrow Chavez calously killing protesters on both sides. A little more than just making Chavez look bad

Chavez has become more powerful then ever since then. If you doubt Chavez has no authority over what appears in the Venezuelan media then look into it. He has the media by the balls and requires to show hours of Hugo Chavez talking.

If I was Chevez I would have had them hanging from the neck. I have already posted the wiki for media control in venezuela, it does not reflect what you claim.

What is with ATS and its posters that they feel to belittle people at any opportunity they get. It's hard to maintain a well-rounded discussion when I'm having it with someone like you. Be above this BS that you're displaying. Its pitiful, man. If you're trying to inform then do it with some self-respect. I have no problem admitting I'm wrong if I see a great point proven.

What? How have you come to that conclusion? Tell me how I have insulted you.

Your only informed comments are coming from a documentary that you're swearing by as the truth.

Again you tell me to have respect but offer none. I have asked for these documentaries to be viewed to show a different story than that you have been told. I have never claimed it to be the truth and never would what it does show is Chavez is not the demon he is being painted as and at the very least a little more understanding of why he does not trust the USA or its Allies and the propaganda war against him that they continue even today

Oliver Stone, the director, has inaccurate accounts of events in the past. He's claim that Hitler did more damage to Russians than Jews. (and if there's truth to it, lemme know, I'm curious).

Did he? This is why I suggested watching both videos linked to, the other being John Pilger Do you know how a balance works? You weigh evidence from both sides and that is all I have asked. Not opinions without any evidence in support.

The funny about this documentary is that it did pretty good box office everywhere except Chavez's OWN country VENEZUELA.

I have no idea of the cinema going audience in Venezuela, do you?

It bombed in Venezuela. I wonder why. Article suggested Venezuelans don't take kindly to excessive flattery. Another side suggest that it really isn't the reality that Venezuela portrays.

And so you chose to take it as bombed it seems. Why?

Would you really live in a country where the homicide rate moves up every year? Is that a great country to live in?

Unfortunately I do. The UK and the suicide rate aint all that great either.

Originally posted by colin42
reply to post by nenothtu

 

Oh, I understand when I've been "dismissed", but you apparently fail to realize that ain't your call.

It really is my call and you can bet your house on it. Let's see how many replies on this thread you get from me if you intend to carry on the way you have. Dismissed.

I'm sure you'd like to think so.

Don't think that I'm going to mistake your retreat for my "dismissal", however.

Run along, enjoy your propaganda videos, and make sure you have plenty of popcorn - a mouthful of popcorn provides a decent excuse for not being able to speak your own opinion from your own mind, and gives an excuse to just point at a video when you've not got your own assessment. There's a big difference between living something and watching a slick production of what someone wants you to THINK living it is like.

Have a nice life now, y'hear?