John, Mary and Jesus in the Qur'an. Surah Maryam

reply to post by logical7

Muslims do the opposite and try to obey his teachings than banking upon a promise made by people (after Jesus pbuh had left) that the sins have been paid for!

You do realize that obeying Jesus' teachings includes believing in his words, right? You know, the ones about the resurrection and his ability to forgive sin?

Jesus on forgiving sin...

Matthew 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Matthew 1:21

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Mark 2:10

10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins

Luke 5:20

20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

I can always continue to make my case that Jesus was human and not God using Jesus' words directly.

Just like I can use his words directly to say he was.

Originally posted by logical7
Muslims do the opposite and try to obey his teachings ...

Then why follow a bunch of fabrications attributed to Jesus 600+ years after he was alive (the contradictions in the Qu'ran) .. when instead you could follow the first hand documentation of what He actually taught which is in the New Testament?

If you wanted to obey Jesus teachings .. then go to HIS teachings which were recorded by His followers ... not Muhammads fabrications which came 600+ years later. That makes more sense, right?

reply to post by FlyersFan

Sorry for the aside, but I just wanted to point out, in your memetic repetitions, you seem to keep saying that same phrase, I dunno if it has been programmed into your or what, because even after you're corrected, you say it again next time.
I'm sorry, they're not "First hand documentation". None of the "first hand documentation" remain. Most of the Bible today is made up of book written by people who never met Jesus (and yeah, I count Paul among those), and books that have been so heavily edited that very little of any original author, even if they WERE a disciple of Jesus (which has been debated since before the Bible existed as a whole), remains. In fact, the oldest surviving fragment of a New Testament manuscript in existence is from 100 years after Jesus died, and while there are thousands and thousands of manuscripts of the Bible in existence (more than any other ancient text, probably), NONE of them match (even if they are just minor changes between manuscripts).

So yeah, at best BIblical manuscripts are just as valid 100 years after the fact as the Quranic texts are 600 years after the fact. Sorry.

Also, slightly more on topic (although not really...it is disappointing how every single topic related to the comparative study of religion devolves into "Jesus is God!" "Jesus is not God!" "Islam is satanic!" "Christianity is false!"), I'd say the relationship between God, Jesus and the rest of us can be neatly and nicely summarised in Jesus's (supposed) own words:

John 20:17 (Young's Literal)
"Be not touching me, for I have not yet ascended unto my Father; and be going on to my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and to your God."

Taking it literally OR metaphorically, Jesus is our brother, God is our and his God and Father. Combining metaphorical and literal meanings here would just be wishful thinking on the part of the reader. Inserting interpretations about Jesus being "Fully Man and Fully God" don't fit with this verse. Interpretations that Jesus was "incomplete" because he hadn't ascended certainly don't jive with this verse, because they would imply that God was either somehow incomplete, or there were 2 gods.

reply to post by colbe

1) MATTHEW 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. [the devil was tempting Jesus Himself]

this is the complete picture,

5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle
of the temple,
6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is
written, He shall give his angels charge
concerning thee: and in their hands
they shall bear thee up, lest at any time
thou dash thy foot against a stone.
7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord
thy God.

this is what happens when you take things out of context,
Jesus pbuh is not calling himself god,
rather saying that he will not tempt/test his God when satan asks him to jump as God will send angels to catch him rather than letting him get hurt or die.
Here is where 'its written'
Deuteronomy 6

13 Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his
name. 14 Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are
round about you; 15 (For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the
LORD thy God be kindled against thee,
and destroy thee from off the face of
the earth. 16 Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah. 17 Ye shall diligently keep the commandments of the LORD your God,
and his testimonies, and his statutes,
which he hath commanded thee. 18 And thou shalt do that which is right and good in the sight of the
LORD: that it may be well with thee,
and that thou mayest go in and
possess the good land which the LORD
sware unto thy fathers.

that means i will not jump from a building just because i believe in God and expect Him to save me.
Jesus pbuh refused to jump and tempt God too.

reply to post by eight bits

How does this help your case? Jesus is saying his words aren't only those of one man, himself, but of the entire Godhead as well. The Christian God speaks with one voice, Jesus' here. This is an illustration that "the Bible says..." is easily misapplied. You don't know what a speech means if you don't know who is speaking. If Monogenes Theos is speaking, then the speech depicts the unity of the Trinity of which he is a part, and obviously so.

it does help my case, Jesus pbuh dint say that the Holy Spirit will give a new theology.
You are claiming that anyone who claims to be guided by Holy Spirit is always truthful?
Its a ridiculous stand,

Jesus pbuh tells to obey his teachings and also tell that after him God will keep guiding people and then someone comes, claims to be 'guided' and tell that obeying Jesus' teachings is not necessary anymore!
Muhammad pbuh claims that Jesus' teachings still stand and need to be obeyed.
Who is more consistent?

Also if i can't question paul as i also believe a claim by Muhammad pbuh,
christians also should not question Muhammad pbuh rather believe him as they blindly believe paul.

There are only two possibilities, either one of them is true or both are liars.
Who is true is equally possible but Muhammad pbuh is completely consistence right from Jewish belief to islamic belief, a consistent monotheistic belief from Adam to Muhammad peace be upon them all.

If both are liars the christians choose to believe the bigger liar!

reply to post by logical7


The problem with that thought is that Paul didn't contradict any of Jesus' teachings and Muhammad did.

reply to post by Deetermined

You do realize that obeying Jesus' teachings includes believing in his words, right? You know, the ones about the resurrection and his ability to forgive sin?

he "said" he got 'resurrected'? Never read that!
he did forgive sins and he answered it too that he has been given the ability to forgive on earth 'by' God.
Now he is not on earth, his teachings are, help the needy, feel the poor, keep the law.
The parting words of Jesus pbuh are to teach 'repentance' from sins. The same as John pbuh, the same as every prophet.
Do you ignore all that?
The idea 'we fall short of God's glory so God had to come Himself' is very disturbing.
Din't He knew that before even making humans?
So He want to kill His son and so makes humans and there is ofcourse no death for God or a son if He has one and it becomes a trick for people. Either God did it or someone made it up. What is more likely?

An All Knowing entity can't 'sacrifice'

it would be like me jumping to shield you from a bullet when i knew the bullet is fake(i wont die) and then asking you to be thankful to me always for saving your life!

reply to post by logical7


Yes, Jesus taught about his own death and resurrection to come.

Read Matthew 26:28 again for what Jesus said himself about why he shed his own blood.

The sad part is that all of the actual Bible verses pertaining to all of this have been shared with you and Skorpion before and then both of you act like you never read them the first time.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by logical7

 

The problem with that thought is that Paul didn't contradict any of Jesus' teachings and Muhammad did.

Jesus pbuh says,

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I
have not come to abolish them but to
fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the
smallest letter, not the least stroke of a
pen, will by any means disappear from
the Law until everything is
accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of
these commands and teaches others
accordingly will be called least in the
kingdom of heaven, but whoever
practices and teaches these
commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness
surpasses that of the Pharisees and
the teachers of the law, you will
certainly not enter the kingdom of
heaven.

paul says

Paul’s Eleven-Fold Cancellation of the Law 1. Galatians 3:10— All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” 2. Galatians 3:13—Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, 3. Galatians 3:25—Now that faith has
come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. 4. Galatians 5:1—It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. 5. Galatians 5:18—But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. 6. Romans 2:12—All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 7. Romans 4:15—The law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
8. Romans 5: 13—Before the law was
given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 9. Romans 6:14—Sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
10. Romans 7:8b—Apart from law, sin is dead.
11. Colossians 2:13b-14—He forgave
us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

reply to post by FlyersFan

If you wanted to obey Jesus teachings .. then go to HIS teachings which were recorded by His followers ... not Muhammads fabrications which came 600+ years later. That makes more sense, right?

only if some imposter (christian persecutor) dint try to alter Jesus' teaching(destroy from within),

I want to obey God, each prophet gave the same teachings, i try to obey Moses, Jesus, Muhammad peace be upon them, but in essence i am only obeying God as He sent them and asked me to obey them, a simple consistent theme no frills!

Originally posted by babloyi
in your memetic repetitions, you seem to keep saying that same phrase, I dunno if it has been programmed into your or what, because even after you're corrected, you say it again next time.

It must be repeated because it obviously isn't sinking in with the die-hard muslim population who continually wants to dismiss the New Testament writings in favor of the Muslim fabrications. And no .. I haven't been 'corrected'. Lots of rhetoric has come my way, but no 'corrections'. It looks like I'll have to keep correcting those who think the Qu'ran didn't fabricate stories of Jesus.

So yeah, at best BIblical manuscripts are just as valid 100 years after the fact as the Quranic texts are 600 years after the fact.

The Gospels were written by people who knew jesus or by people who studied under those who knew Jesus. The Qu'ran contradicts the gospels and were written 600+ years after Jesus walked the earth. There is no comparison.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

If you wanted to obey Jesus teachings .. then go to HIS teachings which were recorded by His followers ... not Muhammads fabrications which came 600+ years later. That makes more sense, right?

only if some imposter (christian persecutor) dint try to alter Jesus' teaching(destroy from within),

And isn't it MUCH more likely that Muhammad got his stories wrong 600+ years after Jesus was on earth, rather than the people who walked with Jesus and studied under his Apostles ?? Yep.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by logical7

 

The problem with that thought is that Paul didn't contradict any of Jesus' teachings and Muhammad did.

Jesus pbuh says,

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I
have not come to abolish them but to
fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the
smallest letter, not the least stroke of a
pen, will by any means disappear from
the Law until everything is
accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of
these commands and teaches others
accordingly will be called least in the
kingdom of heaven, but whoever
practices and teaches these
commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness
surpasses that of the Pharisees and
the teachers of the law, you will
certainly not enter the kingdom of
heaven.

paul says

Paul’s Eleven-Fold Cancellation of the Law 1. Galatians 3:10— All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” 2. Galatians 3:13—Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, 3. Galatians 3:25—Now that faith has
come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. 4. Galatians 5:1—It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. 5. Galatians 5:18—But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. 6. Romans 2:12—All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 7. Romans 4:15—The law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
8. Romans 5: 13—Before the law was
given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 9. Romans 6:14—Sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
10. Romans 7:8b—Apart from law, sin is dead.
11. Colossians 2:13b-14—He forgave
us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by logical7

 

Yes, Jesus taught about his own death and resurrection to come.

Read Matthew 26:28 again for what Jesus said himself about why he shed his own blood.

The sad part is that all of the actual Bible verses pertaining to all of this have been shared with you and Skorpion before and then both of you act like you never read them the first time.

edit on 9-3-2013 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)

this is
Matthew 26

28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for
many for the forgiveness of sins.

so what the covenant?
Isn't it Obey God, worship only God and keep the law?
Will not every tree that doesnt bear fruits be cast in fire?
What it means? Doesnt it mean good works/actions and not just lip service?
Quran tells me to tell you this

Say "O
people of the
Scripture
(Jews and Christians)!
You have
nothing (as
regards
guidance) till
you act according to
the Taurat
(Torah), the
Injeel
(Gospel), and
what has (now) been
sent down to
you from
your Lord
(the Qur'an)."
Verily, that which has
been sent
down to you
(Muhammad
SAW) from
your Lord increases in
many of them
their
obstinate
rebellion and
disbelief. So be not
sorrowful
over the
people who
disbelieve.

reply to post by FlyersFan

The Gospels were written by people who knew jesus or by people who studied under those who knew Jesus.

there are other Gospels equally or more 'first hand accounts' by others that werent included which tell another story. Why?
Holy Spirit guided the compilation too? If that then how the unincluded gospels got written without help of Holy Spirit?
Its amazing what lies people can propogate by that claim when Jesus pbuh warned of danger of damnation to anyone blaspheming against the Holy Spirit!

reply to post by logical7

so what the covenant?

Do a keyword search in an online Bible for "new testament" and "new covenant".

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

If you wanted to obey Jesus teachings .. then go to HIS teachings which were recorded by His followers ... not Muhammads fabrications which came 600+ years later. That makes more sense, right?

only if some imposter (christian persecutor) dint try to alter Jesus' teaching(destroy from within),

And isn't it MUCH more likely that Muhammad got his stories wrong 600+ years after Jesus was on earth, rather than the people who walked with Jesus and studied under his Apostles ?? Yep.

not really, look at it this way, why is there so much ambiguity in Bible?
Wouldnt it be plain and simple to write the creed clearly and openly and all apostles would have agreed.
Its rather an evolving theology and couldnt be stated till 'eyewitnesses' die or they would have rejected it, Mark has a human Jesus pbuh, John makes him near divine, john is also written when apostles were no more to object.
The church compiled it to teach a creed agreed upon by voting!!
Maybe its your responsibility to dig up and find what other Gospels say and then make up your mind,
if you choose to believe the church and their official compilation blindly and assume you are following Jesus pbuh then you are not really serious about knowing the real Jesus rather a version that suits you.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by logical7

 

so what the covenant?

Do a keyword search in an online Bible for "new testament" and "new covenant".

Dee, i know the 'new covenant'
i want to know the covenant that Jesus pbuh preached during his time not the one the church did in his name.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Originally posted by FlyersFan
It must be repeated because it obviously isn't sinking in with the die-hard muslim population who continually wants to dismiss the New Testament writings in favor of the Muslim fabrications. And no .. I haven't been 'corrected'. Lots of rhetoric has come my way, but no 'corrections'. It looks like I'll have to keep correcting those who think the Qu'ran didn't fabricate stories of Jesus.

I'm sorry, but trying to "sink in" something that doesn't make logical sense by constantly repeating it instead is the methodology of brainwashing cults.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
The Gospels were written by people who knew jesus or by people who studied under those who knew Jesus. The Qu'ran contradicts the gospels and were written 600+ years after Jesus walked the earth. There is no comparison.

Again, these people DIDN'T KNOW JESUS (although you still say it again, albeit this time adding "and studied under his apostles"). That is my entire point: They never met him.
So whether you go 100+ years or 600+ years, either are equally valid. You think several different contradictory word-for-word Bible verses written by someone who never met Jesus, often talking about stuff when he didn't even have any companions around are somehow trustworthy and valid?

If you do, it'd be through the "Hand of God" or the Holy Spirit, and has nothing to do with it being "First hand accounts" (which they weren't at all). And if you accept they were accurate because they were guided by the Holy Spirit, then the fact that it was 100 years later makes no difference. In that case, it being 600 years later would make no difference.
So if you are going to apply the "God said it" argument, EITHER are equally valid.
If you AREN'T going to apply the "God said it" argument, neither are valid at all.