John, Mary and Jesus in the Qur'an. Surah Maryam

Scorpie

The Koran also describes Jesus as ... the word of God...

In the only cases I know of , Koran 3: 45, 4.171, Isa is the Word of Allah to Maryam. In John 1, The Word exists before Mary (or anyone or anything on Earth), and God creates the world through Jesus.

The word logos had a long heritage in the Greek language as denoting an animating and generating aspect of the Godhead. John's use of the word, then, is apt. Jews had long had their own use of the idea of "word" in connection with God and creation: God spoke the world into existence. John 1: 1-5 restates Genesis 1: 1-5, with the benefit of the fuller revelation of God allowed by John's acquaintance with Jesus, the man who is God:

In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth, the earth was without form or shape. There was darkness over the abyss and a mighty wind swept over the waters. Then God said: Let there be light, and there was light. God saw that the light was good. God then separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” Evening came, and morning followed—the first day.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

Jesus is nobody wholly-else's messenger. He was not zapped into being after the human race already existed (as you have argued elsewhere). He is the Word of God, period, not the Word of God on some temporal occasion, nor a word said to any specfic human being. Jesus is the Word of God through whom light was first spoken into being; Jesus is the Word of God through whom life was first spoken into being. Jesus is God participating now in that life he made through Jesus.

The Greek word logos may translate into the same word in English as the Arabic word, but the concepts could scarcely be more different. The Greek word also translates into the same word in English as the Hebrew word, but the Greek explains more fully what the Hebrew meant, according to the Christian reading of its own text and of the Jewish text.

The difference between Islam and Christianity is the difference being following a Jesus who is somebody else's agent and a Jesus who acts on his own behalf within God. Or, as Christian scripture records it, whether Jesus speaks "as a scribe" or as "as someone with authority."

Who is right, nobody would be foolish enough to ask me. But as to whether the two positions are the same or even reconcilable, any fool can see that they are not.
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Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by Deetermined

 

The question you need to ask yourself is why did Muhammad consider Jesus as only a prophet, but repeated the virgin birth story. He totally contradicted himself when he did that.

The Koran also describes Jesus as the messiah and the word of God... Jesus can be all that and still be human. The virgin birth happened because "nothing is impossible with God" as the Bible states.

That the virgin birth automatically makes Jesus divine is YOUR stipulation. The Bible tells us Jesus was first and foremost a son of Mary, who God favored.

Furthermore...
and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son - Luke 2:7

Deny it all you want.

Luke 1:35

35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that HOLY thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

So the idea that Satan would start a religion that works against himself is preposterous. Of course, Christians don't always follow the words of Jesus, so its no surprise that they discard Jesus' teachings whenever it goes against what they want to believe.

That works both ways, doesn't it?

I'm pretty sure you discard the teachings of Jesus (outside of the 10 commandments) every day.

reply to post by Deetermined

I'm pretty sure you discard the teachings of Jesus (outside of the 10 commandments) every day.

I'm not perfect... never claimed to be.
Which is why we are pray for forgiveness everyday. Not just kick back and think, "Jesus died for my sins, so I'm ok".

My point was that Jesus said Satan would not do anything to divide his kingdom... so for colbe to say that Islam a religion that warns against Satan... is actually of Satan, goes against Jesus statement.

reply to post by Deetermined

Luke 1:35

35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that HOLY thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Adam and David are also called "sons of God"... don't get started with the capitalization thing again. Its only in english translations. You are not going to find it in, say, a Hindi or Chinese translation.

Also, if Jesus is called "son of Mary" AND "son of God" then just what is the relationship between God and Mary. Was Mary just another creation or did she become Gods wife or something?
Jesus was first and foremost a son of Mary, a woman who God "favored".

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Are you playing blind intentionally?

What part of the word HOLY (that I put in all caps just for you) did you miss?

reply to post by Deetermined

Are you playing blind intentionally?

What part of the word HOLY (that I put in all caps just for you) did you miss?

So Mary's son was HOLY. As many prophets were also called Holy.

But you have, for the second time missed a question that I asked...
If Jesus is called "son of Mary" AND "son of God" then just what is the relationship between God and Mary. Was Mary just another creation or did she become Gods wife or something?

Because the bible tells us that God and Mary are both parents to Jesus.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Mary was just another creation used for the purpose of making Jesus human while the Holy Spirit made him divine. No, Mary was not God's wife. Jesus already told us that there was no such thing as marriage in Heaven.

reply to post by Deetermined

Mary was just another creation used for the purpose of making Jesus human while the Holy Spirit made him divine.

Then God simply used one creation to make another creation... not reproduce himself.

God favored Mary with a son, because "nothing is impossible with him". This son has divine origins... just like how Adam also has divine origins.... as he was made alive with the direct "breath" of God, i.e - The holy spirit.

No, Mary was not God's wife. Jesus already told us that there was no such thing as marriage in Heaven.

You can be called the son/daughter of BOTH your mother and your father.

Jesus is called BOTH "son of Mary" and the "begotten son of God".... so it obviously indicates some sort of relationship between God and Mary... similar to a human couple.

Unless that is what Christianity wants to believe, then "son of God" is just a title, no different from the way it was given to Adam... who was also created from the Holy Spirit.

Scorpie

Adam and David are also called "sons of God"...

Obviously figuratively, since Adam has no father at all, and David's father is Jesse.

As I pointed out in an earlier post, whether Jesus has a father is one of two easy questions that define and distinguish the branches of living Abrahamics. For a Muslim, Jesus is like Adam, and has no father at all. So, "son of God" must be figurative in the Muslim usage (and the Koran has specific language on point, like 4.171 which I mentioned in my last post).

Christians and Jews both think that Jesus does have a father. So, a Jew seeing Jesus called "son of God" might think that could happen figuratively to a man whose father is actually Joseph, just as David, literally a son of Jesse, was figuratively called a son of God.

Which brings us to Christians. According to them, too, Jesus has a father, and that father is God. So, Jesus is the son of God just like David is the son of Jesse.

There is no conflict here. Sometimes people use language figuratively, and sometimes they use the same words literally.

Nobody seriously believes that that is news to you, anymore than anybody seriously believes that it is news to you that Christians thought Jesus was divine long before theirs was the Roman state religion, or that it is news to you that your favorite Second Century saint believed Jesus was a member of the Trinity, and died for holding that belief and preferring to die rather than renounce it.

... then just what is the relationship between God and Mary. Was Mary just another creation or did she become Gods wife or something?

Oh noes, we have drifted back on topic. In Christian teaching, Mary became Joseph's wife. Mary is a creature, and God created her through his Son, the Word. Their relationship is as shown in the passage Dee quoted from. God requested that Mary serve as Jesus' mother, and she agreed to do so. Although much else differs, that much, so far as I know, is the same in Islam and Christianity. All three Abrahamics agree that being born of a Jewish woman was required for Jesus to be a Jew.

You can be called the son/daughter of BOTH your mother and your father.

To say nothing of your foster father, if you have one, which may have had some relevance to Jesus' day-to-day life, when he would probably have been referred to as "ben Joseph" when the need arose to distinguish him from other men also named Jesus.
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Then God simply used one creation to make another creation... not reproduce himself.

The difference is that the Bible tells us that Jesus is "OF the Holy Ghost", not created BY the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 1:18, 20

18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by Deetermined

 

I'm pretty sure you discard the teachings of Jesus (outside of the 10 commandments) every day.

I'm not perfect... never claimed to be.
Which is why we are pray for forgiveness everyday. Not just kick back and think, "Jesus died for my sins, so I'm ok".

My point was that Jesus said Satan would not do anything to divide his kingdom... so for colbe to say that Islam a religion that warns against Satan... is actually of Satan, goes against Jesus statement.

Ridiculous to argue, to make Christ less. Jesus said "I AM." Plain and clear, Our Lord is God, Second
person of the Blessed Trinity, always was, always will be.

I said Islam is from Satan, look at it's fruit.

This thread is a con, do not speak of Christ or His mother with any connection to Islam. Islam rejects
Christianity. The West especially liberal western media ignore what Islam really is, they write of tolerance and
ignore the evil of Islam. In Europe, there are laws to their regret now...do not speak ill of Islam,

The Kuron states subjugate all non-Muslims. And Muslims call it honor killing to murder anyone who converts to Christianity. Remember Rifqa Bary? Muslims need to hear, their God is a false god.

It will take God's divine Great Warning coming "soon." Free will, many Muslims and some prideful Christians will still say no when they are shown. Pray for conversions, the grace of God changes hearts.

reply to post by Deetermined

The difference is that the Bible tells us that Jesus is "OF the Holy Ghost", not created BY the Holy Ghost.

Jesus is "divine" in the sense, he was a direct creation of God... same way as Adam who was created directly by God. By your logic, Adam is more divine than Jesus.

When you say "Jesus is God", you make the woman who gave birth to him the "mother of God". Jesus was announced first as a son for Mary... so she wasn't just a vessel.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Sorry, there's no comparison. The Bible says that Jesus was conceived "OF the Holy Ghost" and says that Adam was formed from the dust of the ground.

Genesis 2:7

7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Paul tells us the difference perfectly...

1 Corinthians 15:45-47

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

As far as Mary, she would never be considered the mother of God because both God/Jesus existed in the beginning before man was ever created. She was only a human vessel that was used to bring in the physical aspect of Jesus. Our human bodies and physical relationships on earth hold no power in the afterlife. When was the last time you saw anything written in the Bible about Mary's position in heaven for having been his physical mother? There isn't anything, because it wasn't important.

When you say "Jesus is God", you make the woman who gave birth to him the "mother of God".

That is, in fact, a title (or translation of the title Theotokos) given to her by the apostolic-succession churches that the majority of Christians belong to: Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, The Anglican Communion and the Oriental Orthodox.

Total membership of those churches worldwide would be about the same as the number of Muslims worldwide, maybe a bit more. Protestants not in apostolic succession would be the biggest group of Nicenes who do not recognize the title; it's about 2:1 or so who do.

Jesus was announced first as a son for Mary... so she wasn't just a vessel.

Of course she wasn't a vessel; all the Abrahamics agree that she was his mother.

I was about to type "Surely you're not proposing that Mary's son would be her son alone, with no father at all," and then I remembered that that is exactly Mohammed's theory.

So I didn't ask.

Originally posted by eight bits

When you say "Jesus is God", you make the woman who gave birth to him the "mother of God".

That is, in fact, a title (or translation of the title Theotokos) given to her by the apostolic-succession churches that the majority of Christians belong to: Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, The Anglican Communion and the Oriental Orthodox.

Total membership of those churches worldwide would be about the same as the number of Muslims worldwide, maybe a bit more. Protestants not in apostolic succession would be the biggest group of Nicenes who do not recognize the title; it's about 2:1 or so who do.

Jesus was announced first as a son for Mary... so she wasn't just a vessel.

Of course she wasn't a vessel; all the Abrahamics agree that she was his mother.

I was about to type "Surely you're not proposing that Mary's son would be her son alone, with no father at all," and then I remembered that that is exactly Mohammed's theory.

So I didn't ask.

eight bits,

I love your response and I didn't know the underlined. Thanks!

reply to post by eight bits

Isa is the Word of Allah to Maryam.

Jesus in Islam exclusively holds the titles Ruhullah - the spirit of Allah and Kalimatullaah - The word of Allah.

As it is in the Bible as well. The word of God, manifested as a son for Mary. It was Mary who was originally favored by God which resulted in the messiah being sent. Mary declares "the Mighty One has done great things for me", referring to Jesus. She was not just a "vessel" as some Christians believe.

The Word exists before Mary (or anyone or anything on Earth), and God creates the world through Jesus.

The word existed before Mary, correct.. and God created the universe through the "word".
But the idea that God created the world through Jesus is purely Pauls theology. Jesus himself never said anything of that sort.

He is the Word of God, period, not the Word of God on some temporal occasion,

If Jesus was the "word of God, period" then was Jesus who was sent to Jeremiah in the old Testament?

The word of the LORD came to me.
- Jeremiah 18:1

Was it actually Jesus who was sent to Abraham?
After this, the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision
- Genesis 15:1

Was it actually Jesus who was sent to Elijah?
And the word of the Lord came to Elijah the prophet,
-1 Kings 21:17

Jesus is the Word of God through whom light was first spoken into being; Jesus is the Word of God through whom life was first spoken into being. Jesus is God participating now in that life he made through Jesus.

Jesus was not God. There are tons of scripture to prove it, I don't even know where to start from.
The Bible describes Jesus as a MAN who was approved by God. Jesus is also described as somebody who had to learn obedience and was heard by God because of his reverent submission. Hardly fitting for somebody who is portrayed as God.

The difference between Islam and Christianity is the difference being following a Jesus who is somebody else's agent and a Jesus who acts on his own behalf within God. Or, as Christian scripture records it, whether Jesus speaks "as a scribe" or as "as someone with authority."

Even the Bible describes Jesus as an "agent" of God.

I can do nothing on my own. I judge as God tells me. Therefore, my judgment is just, because I carry out the will of the one who sent me, not my own will.

Its the same as in the Koran as well, where Jesus' powers were not of his own, but that of Gods.

And make him a messenger to the Children of Israel, (who will say), 'Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord in that I design for you from clay (that which is) like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of Allah. And I cure the blind and the leper, and I give life to the dead - by permission of Allah . And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers.
- Koran 3:49

But as to whether the two positions are the same or even reconcilable, any fool can see that they are not.

Both the Koran and the Bible describe Jesus as
-the son of Mary, the woman who was favored by God.
-a man who was doing the will of God, not his own.
-a man who could performed miracles through Gods powers not his own.
-a man who was sent by God, not God himself.

So any fool can see that both the Muslim and Christian positions are the same. But Christians have elevated Jesus to the status of the God who sent him.

reply to post by eight bits

For a Muslim, Jesus is like Adam, and has no father at all. So, "son of God" must be figurative in the Muslim usage

Muslims don't see Jesus as Adam, simply because both had no fathers. Jesus is like Adam because they were both special creations of God. The Koran explains it beautifully...
"The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam. He created him from dust, then said to him, "BE!" and he was."
- Koran 3:59

God creates as he pleases. God could create Adam from dust... and God could create Jesus without a human father. It is perfectly in line with the Biblical teaching "nothing is impossible with God."

Mary became Joseph's wife. Mary is a creature, and God created her through his Son, the Word.

The "Son" also happens to be Mary's son. So you could also say God created Mary through her own son. Absurd.

Their relationship is as shown in the passage Dee quoted from. God requested that Mary serve as Jesus' mother, and she agreed to do so.

There is no verse that says God "requested" Mary to serve as Jesus' mother. That's a fine example of the mental acrobatics that Christians perform to hold their convoluted theology together.

If you were to go by the actual account of Jesus' birth, you would see that Mary was favored by God and was to give birth to a son... her son. There is absolutely nothing that suggests Mary was to give birth to God.

Jesus is clearly described as Mary's firstborn.

and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. - Luke 2:7

And Jesus, being a firstborn was also consecrated to God, like any other ordinary Israelite child in accordance to the law.

Joseph and Mary took him to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, “Every firstborn male is to be consecrated to the Lord”), and to offer a sacrifice in keeping with what is said in the Law of the Lord: “a pair of doves or two young pigeons.”
- Luke 2:22-24


So the relationship between Mary and God was that of a creation and a Creator.
God sending Jesus to Mary's womb was the result of Mary having found favor with God.
Jesus is the literal son of Mary... and a figurative son of God, just like Adam.

reply to post by Deetermined

As far as Mary, she would never be considered the mother of God because both God/Jesus existed in the beginning before man was ever created.

Jesus is described as Mary's "firstborn"...
and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. - Luke 2:7

So if you believe Jesus was God, then God would be Mary's firstborn.

She was only a human vessel that was used to bring in the physical aspect of Jesus.

The "human vessel" argument is your own invention.
The bible clearly tells us that Mary was favored by God and was blessed with a son.

Double. Please delete.