Why was Jesus' Resurrection not convincing?

reply to post by windword

Also, the same guards, who didn't break Jesus' legs, pierced his side. The blood and water that flowed proved that his heart was still beating, and therefore, he was still alive at that time.

It was mostly water, not blood. Which pathologists state is evidence of both pericardial and pleural effusions.

reply to post by wildtimes

People did survive if brought down quickly enough. Fact.

SOURCE????

Josephus records three being taken down and afforded to best care the Empire had to offer and two of them still subsequently died.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by wildtimes

 

People did survive if brought down quickly enough. Fact.

SOURCE????

Josephus records three being taken down and afforded to best care the Empire had to offer and two of them still subsequently died.

Wouldn't that be a source then?

Providing evidence that men can survive Crucifixion?

I saw many captives crucified, and remembered three of them as my former acquaintance. I was very sorry at this in my mind, and went with tears in my eyes to Titus, and told him of them; so he immediately commanded them to be taken down, and to have the greatest care taken of them, in order to their recovery; yet two of them died under the physician's hands, while the third recovered.
~ Josephus

reply to post by NOTurTypical


And, you KNOW this how?

How can any doctor give a diagnosis of death, when the patient us up and walking round, talking and eating? It just doesn't make any sense.

Dead bodies don't get hungry and eat!

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Which pathologists state is evidence of both pericardial and pleural effusions.

And it's also evidence of a pleural empyema, which I saw with my own eyes and so did the hospital staff. Living eye-witnesses. Do you need to see the medical records? I'll tell the hospital to release them for you, if you want.
Fact.
A pleural empyema, when punctured, emits bloody water. Fact. Nothing to do with the heart. Fact.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

And, you KNOW this how?

How can any doctor give a diagnosis of death, when the patient us up and walking round, talking and eating? It just doesn't make any sense.

Dead bodies don't get hungry and eat!

It's called a "resurrection". The same resurrection that convinced Jesus's own half-brothers that He wasn't some loony, but the Lord after all.

reply to post by Akragon


Sure, when afforded the best medical care of the Empire the success rate was 33%. Care that would certainly not be afforded to a Jew by the Empire. But that's not what the historical record states, the record states that He was killed.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Which pathologists state is evidence of both pericardial and pleural effusions.

And it's also evidence of a pleural empyema, which I saw with my own eyes and so did the hospital staff. Living eye-witnesses. Do you need to see the medical records? I'll tell the hospital to release them for you, if you want.
Fact.
A pleural empyema, when punctured, emits bloody water. Fact. Nothing to do with the heart. Fact.

I re-suggest you read the peer-reviewed JAMA report on His crucifixion:

Here.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


So, you're saying I'm lying? (again?)
Dude, I KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO MY HUSBAND.

It's in the medical records.

I SAW IT WITH MY OWN EYES. Eye-witness, live person. I saw his body. I watched as he suffered. I saw what the experts did. I was in on it. I know what I saw happeniing. It was fact. Fact.

One version. 2.5 years ago. The only one who doesn't remember it clearly is MY HUSBAND. Due to delirium, pain meds, trauma, and suffering. I SAW IT. I WAS THERE.
I saw the x-rays. Every day.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Nope, it's called survival, with the help of some rich and influential friends.

As far as James, the Just, I don't see him preaching the resurrection.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

we can only speculate about which structures might have been impaled by such a vicious act. However, the blood could have resulted from the heart, the aorta, or any of the pulmonary vessels. Water probably was provided by pleural or pericardial fluids (that surround the lungs and heart).

Wait, read that again. Then, match up the following: WE CAN ONLY SPECULATE.
and: MIGHT have been impaled.
and: COULD have resulted from the heart, the aorta, or any of the pulmonary vessels.
and: WATER PROBABLY was provided by PLEURAL OR precardial fluids.

Oh wait, there's more!! Hold up.....
here!!:

Much speculation has centered on the exact location of the puncture wound and thus the source of the resulting blood and water. However, the Greek word (pleura) that John used clearly denotes the area of the intercoastal ribs that cover the lungs (Netter, 1994, p. 184). Given the upward angle of the spear, and the thoracic location of the wound, abdominal organs can be ruled out as having provided the blood and water.

A more likely scenario would suggest that the piercing affected a lung (along with any built-up fluid), the pericardial sac surrounding the heart, the right atrium of the heart itself, the pulmonary vessels, and/or the aorta. Since John did not describe the specific side of the body on which the wound was inflicted, we can only speculate .....

go back to the above for the rest of the quoted text.

Your article is 11 years old.
It clearly states they are speculating.
And it's from an OBVIOUSLY biased "Apologetcs Press": www.apologeticspress.org...

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

Sure, when afforded the best medical care of the Empire the success rate was 33%. Care that would certainly not be afforded to a Jew by the Empire. But that's not what the historical record states, the record states that He was killed.

Granted...

Though who's to say his survival wasn't covered up?

Clearly people wanted him dead...

His closest followers may have covered his survival up as to keep him from further harm... Though, his message sorta changed after his death... and so did his followers.

Paul for example and his miraculous conversion...

Originally posted by akushla99
The 'Death & Resurrection' show...

...available at all good bookstores (or your friendly motel of choice)...

There is a huge problem fitting 'real-life' events to a well-worn rerun formula...there is also a huge problem fitting archetypal formulas to any 'modern' setting...there are bound to be 'problems' with the story...

A99

A Grand And Bold Idea presented to us the neophytes 20th century born standards:
This is a big show. Now how is it exactly; we fit/place our society of well born technocrats into a sandy goated toga wearing bearded olive sucking and lentil eaters environment oh say 2000 years past? I am trying to fathom how this all works, time traveling wilst errand driving to Trader Joes then Cosco? Imagining one is walking in sandals flipping off a flock of sheep with a willow or ash branch joyously singing, "Hosana HeySana Sanasana Ho, Sanaaaaaahey Sana HO sana; Hey JC JC; WILL YOU DIE FOR ME ?? Sannahosana hey SUPERSTAR!!!!!!!"

The Archetypal formulas were to shape this time frame. Not to have to fit it back into a can opened (Im thinking cranberry jelly PLOP 'got it out' plated and looks like Strongheart with the grinning German She--pherd can sculpture) (thanksgreiving). Good luck you old antiquated archetypal idea forms; for what is planned you are going to need it.

Originally posted by vethumanbeing

Originally posted by akushla99
The 'Death & Resurrection' show...

...available at all good bookstores (or your friendly motel of choice)...

There is a huge problem fitting 'real-life' events to a well-worn rerun formula...there is also a huge problem fitting archetypal formulas to any 'modern' setting...there are bound to be 'problems' with the story...

A99

A Grand And Bold Idea presented to us the neophytes 20th century born standards:
This is a big show. Now how is it exactly; we fit/place our society of well born technocrats into a sandy goated toga wearing bearded olive sucking and lentil eaters environment oh say 2000 years past? I am trying to fathom how this all works, time traveling wilst errand driving to Trader Joes then Cosco? Imagining one is walking in sandals flipping off a flock of sheep with a willow or ash branch joyously singing, "Hosana HeySana Sanasana Ho, Sanaaaaaahey Sana HO sana; Hey JC JC; WILL YOU DIE FOR ME ?? Sannahosana hey SUPERSTAR!!!!!!!"

The Archetypal formulas were to shape this time frame. Not to have to fit it back into a can opened (Im thinking cranberry jelly PLOP 'got it out' plated and looks like Strongheart with the grinning German She--pherd can sculpture) (thanksgreiving). Good luck you old antiquated archetypal idea forms; for what is planned you are going to need it.

edit on 26-2-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)

Loved the movie...the reruns...the video...the book of the video of the movie of the reruns...some just have trouble distinguishing the contents from what gets written on the side of the can...and, is a rose a rose?...scurrilous bard asking us what were wordsworth...

...while the 'pictures or it didn't happen' brigade, photoshopping the big bang in millions of colors, present joe sixpack with the 'evidence'...that farcical opera is falling off the bridge thats disappearing before their eyes...they will need something to hang on to...a teat perhaps?

Surfs up...

A99

reply to post by windword


Why do you assume that having free will makes you imperfect? Quite honestly that is religious dogma. What you do makes you imperfect. We have the ability to overcome the addictions that bind us to our sin. We were made with the ability to be perfect in love, which is the only perfect that matters.

reply to post by windword


You say natural laws even though we have no natural laws to explain how we are here. As long as we cannot explain how all mater and life came into existence the simplest explanation is a creator. Because creation does not follow natural laws it is safe to assume that the creator is not bound to the laws that he created.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

According to the bible, Babel is the point in time where all men lived together with one language on one continent.

And science has shown that south Africa is where the first common ancestors came from and migrated all over the place, yet you make my point here...This is what I'm talking about. The Bible was written by people who didn't KNOW THAT.

They put it in there, mistakenly, because they didn't know better. They were culture-centric, and unaware of what the rest of the world contained. Now, we know.

We know. So, it's time to let the 'deductions' based on limited knowledge go, and embrace what we know, with delight and an eye toward the future.

In my opinion.

The science that points to South Africa is questionable at best. The bible does not say precisely where. Just because I guess Persia doesn't mean it's not South Africa.

Wild, you can try but there is no bad science in the bible. I promise, you may not believe me but I can provide a plausible counter to everything you can say.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

I know the story. You are basing what happened on a particular set of circumstances that are conjectural. There were different methods of attaching people to their "crosses" which weren't even much more than trees. I have read that he had a small platform to stand on. I know that crucifixion took days. I also know that hours were counted differently.

People did survive if brought down quickly enough. Fact.

He was brought down early. Agreed.

Stabbed through the heart? Not "fact", it's one version.
Nailed through the feet? Not "fact", it's one version
Brutally whipped with sherd-embedded instruments of torture? Not "fact", it's one version.

Dead and resurrected? One version.
Survived with help of network, and was in exile? One version.

Both versions widely respected. And neither of them are my doing.

Only one is from the most printed book in the history of man. Printed in the most languages.

Maybe God is trying to tell everyone wich story is the right one?

Originally posted by akushla99

Originally posted by vethumanbeing

Originally posted by akushla99
The 'Death & Resurrection' show...

...available at all good bookstores (or your friendly motel of choice)...

There is a huge problem fitting 'real-life' events to a well-worn rerun formula...there is also a huge problem fitting archetypal formulas to any 'modern' setting...there are bound to be 'problems' with the story...

A99

A Grand And Bold Idea presented to us the neophytes 20th century born standards:
This is a big show. Now how is it exactly; we fit/place our society of well born technocrats into a sandy goated toga wearing bearded olive sucking and lentil eaters environment oh say 2000 years past? I am trying to fathom how this all works, time traveling wilst errand driving to Trader Joes then Cosco? Imagining one is walking in sandals flipping off a flock of sheep with a willow or ash branch joyously singing, "Hosana HeySana Sanasana Ho, Sanaaaaaahey Sana HO sana; Hey JC JC; WILL YOU DIE FOR ME ?? Sannahosana hey SUPERSTAR!!!!!!!"

The Archetypal formulas were to shape this time frame. Not to have to fit it back into a can opened (Im thinking cranberry jelly PLOP 'got it out' plated and looks like Strongheart with the grinning German She--pherd can sculpture) (thanksgreiving). Good luck you old antiquated archetypal idea forms; for what is planned you are going to need it.

edit on 26-2-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)

Loved the movie...the reruns...the video...the book of the video of the movie of the reruns...some just have trouble distinguishing the contents from what gets written on the side of the can...and, is a rose a rose?...scurrilous bard asking us what were wordsworth...

...while the 'pictures or it didn't happen' brigade, photoshopping the big bang in millions of colors, present joe sixpack with the 'evidence'...that farcical opera is falling off the bridge thats disappearing before their eyes...they will need something to hang on to...a teat perhaps?

Surfs up...

A99

Not a Roman Teat (that Art History dog again) never fails to rear its ugly memorable belly (should have been a sow). Andrew Lloyd and the Timster Rice Can could not get the whole JCS concept/musical to fit in a 14.2 OZ Christmas can? I KNOW! unbelievable; and with what is done with the musical birthday cards these days. Joe Six Pack was an antiquated Robert Hall "Hallmark" greeting card kind of guy.

The IT did happen without PROOF or the Did NOT happen UTUBE brigade what chance do you think anything 2000 years ago would be accepted as true. I can see it all now, many camera phone identees documenting the plight of the leprositic crowds. Jesus (THE COUNTRY BUMPKIN), begging someone (KURT COBAIN) you should have/were supposed to have been me you narcisistic GRUNGE-heroin blooded Man (SAVEY BEATLES LOVER) , YOU WERE ME, lets get in the time machine and exchange our lives/places---Aberdeen WA for Nazareth. Both of them killed themselves ultimately, one by a self inflicted shot gun blast to the face one by a total ignorance of "who are those Roman Centurian guards and what in the world is their intention with that cross and those nails?" situation.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

So, you're saying I'm lying? (again?)
Dude, I KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO MY HUSBAND.

It's in the medical records.

I SAW IT WITH MY OWN EYES. Eye-witness, live person. I saw his body. I watched as he suffered. I saw what the experts did. I was in on it. I know what I saw happeniing. It was fact. Fact.

One version. 2.5 years ago. The only one who doesn't remember it clearly is MY HUSBAND. Due to delirium, pain meds, trauma, and suffering. I SAW IT. I WAS THERE.
I saw the x-rays. Every day.

Cease with the absurd straw man. I never said anything about your husband or that you were lying.