Dorner was not the first to die in a accidental fire ,and won't be the last.

Once Dorner was cornered in the cabin.Those of us old enough to remember knew how it was going to end.Let me say that I do not condone Dorner's actions.But neither do I condone the action's of the goverment's as I will show has happened repeatly through the year's.

What do these sititutions have in common? In every case a person or group who had a problem with the goverment died in a "accidental fire".

Are our goverment agencies so incompetent that this can happen so often? Or is it a way to silence people and cowl any voice of dissention.

These people or groups may (in some cases) or may not have taken proper action's to have their voice heard.But the problem I have is they had no due process and we will never know.

The groups and people listed are not the only ones.In the case of Gordon Kahl I had a relative who was a fireman who was there,this case started me on this thought pattern,he gave me a first hand account which can attest to MOST of the story, 5 month's after it happen.

Symbionese Liberation Army, Teargas was shot in caused accidental fire?
AboveTopSecret

articles.latimes.com...



Gordon Kahl (Tax Protester) died in fire?

www.constitution.org...

M.O.V.E Police dropped bomb started fire?
en.wikipedia.org...

Branch Davidians Waco Teargas shot in Accidental fire ( Why did they wait for the windyest day)?
en.wikipedia.org...


There are more would anyone care to add? Even other forms of democide like Ruby Ridge.

My bottom line is I do not approve of the action's but I would have liked to seen trials.

I have added some link's most are from Wiki, just to remind you of the group's.You can find many offical versions of the events but I find very few voices that rebutt the offical version (Why)?


If any of my link's are broken bear with me I am trying.





Mod's or sombody help me with the first link Arrrrgh!!!!

With all due respect... Waco had nothing...nothing whatsoever to do with or compare to this on any level, remotely imaginable. Nothing. At all.

I once thought I knew all about Waco and debated the point from the side most here take for what they figure happened there. Then someone on here who was a well established and well respected member (No longer here, for whatever reason) challenged me hard one day to prove it was all set up or the cops did it or...prove it wasn't. Either way, prove it, he demanded. So..I read...and for the entire evening and night I read. Texas Ranger reports, Justice Dept reports, Court Transcripts of the Dravidians themselves. I looked at hundreds of photos taken at the scene and reports on the canisters, weapons and armor present or discovered after the event.

I'd love to get into that in depth if folks want to keep comparing the killing of a cop killer (Dorner) to how the ATF turned a simple weapons violation bust into World War III on the plains of Texas. Either way though, the fire that killed them all was as much their own doing as that of anyone else......but the true tragedy of it takes reading about it because NO ONE was really 100% at fault for how they all died there that morning. That's the largest tragedy of it all. Shouldn't have happened....didn't have to happen...and all sides thought, at that moment, they were doing the right thing.

Just my two cents..as that Waco comparison keeps coming up like bad urban legend. Both cases had a burning building. Both cases had at least one human being die in the burning building. That is about the end of anything the two places had remotely in common. My two cents....

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


My link ? they all died by fire. OOP'S Again?

reply to post by rockymcgilicutty

I'll bet the gasoline spread around the inside of the building and all over hay bales, among other highly combustible things, had a whole lot more to do with the fire at Waco than canisters fired at a very different time in the timeline of events that morning. The transcripts of the people inside the main part of the house in both bug recordings and phone recordings before the fire tell the tragedy of the tale and misunderstanding piling on bad assumptions by all.

Like I said... There were burning buildings. Human life was lost. That's the start and end of any comparison between Dorner and Waco, IMO. One of these days, I'll find another full blown Waco thread, digging it alllllllll back up and I can use some of the thousands of pages of reports, transcripts and witness testimony I''ve collected about what actually happened there.

Until then.... Didn't mean to sidetrack to just that ONE aspect of your OP. It's just the 5th or 6th time in 24hrs I've seen Waco referenced with this cop killer as if the two incidents were somehow connected, if only by tactical decisions. Even that doesn't compare on any level. Sounds good to say it does tho... Hmm..

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I won't debate how the fire started as we don't see eye to eye.What I will ask is are you old enough to have watched the whole saga.I don't know ,but I believe you might be. After the other time's that I stated in my above O/P that after a standoff and people were killed by fire.

As I watched the whole thing unfold,and (I was glued to the T.V). I had already made a comment that the branch Divadians had a flag outside.I also commented that it had hung pretty limb.Now go back to the video's of when the compound was stormed. Notice that at that time the flag was roaring in a huge wind.It really bothered me that the Goverment agencies would wait to storm a wodden building until the wind was roaring.

Could this be just total incompetence or coindence?

The point I was making was that why do many standoff's end in death by fire? Are you saying that the Goverment has never noticed this???Or thought that if a fire started that the wind would have cause a wodden building to burn a lot faster?

That right there shows at the least negligence at the most purpose.

reply to post by rockymcgilicutty

Yup, I recall watching it. It's one of those events that sticks with you, isn't it? The shock of realization to what had actually just happened...when the fire had run it's course and it became clear there really hadn't been anyone come out at the last minute...it was staggering.

Oh it was incompetence. Indeed. I'll never argue that. The best source I found for solid information about Waco and law enforcement's chain of 'fail' on everything related to it, turned out to BE law enforcement, if you're interested. The Texas Rangers worked as much AGAINST and in direct conflict with the Justice Department, ATF and FBI as they ever worked with them on anything.

Their reports are the most detailed in tales of evidence moved, lost, seemingly planted and just plain wrong or destroyed. You don't even want to hear about the details of the bodies....or how that was mishandled. Some details I wish I hadn't learned, to be honest. The bottom line I came away with though was that while Uncle Sammy screwed that pooch 6 ways from Sunday and then spent years lying about it and covering up their screw ups.......screw ups were all they were in the end. Nothing more nefarious than OVER-size egos and a cowboy mentality at ATF that knows no limits.

Whereas Dorner was a rabid dog, trapped and cornered....but was he really? He'd already shot it out with and then escaped from police at least twice. Whatever he was or wherever he'd been with the Army and Navy (He was military and in Bahrain in recent years ....if that means anything for what Bahrain has seen for events lately) he was GOOD and...I dare say..BETTER than the street cops he was up against. I think they got him the only way they could be sure, at that point, they COULD without getting more people killed.

It's true, I don't understand how people can be so oblivious. Or those mysterious plane crashes?


Sad, sad world we live in.
A small piece of me hopes Dorner was smart enough to fake his own death

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

Whereas Dorner was a rabid dog, trapped and cornered....but was he really? He'd already shot it out with and then escaped from police at least twice. Whatever he was or wherever he'd been with the Army and Navy (He was military and in Bahrain in recent years ....if that means anything for what Bahrain has seen for events lately) he was GOOD and...I dare say..BETTER than the street cops he was up against. I think they got him the only way they could be sure, at that point, they COULD without getting more people killed.

Point taken .at no point in my post did I condone any of the people or groups. I wanted to point out how these thing's end since the 70's.I am sorry if I would like people to have Due Process, it tie's right in with the 2nd Admendment debate. These are right's given by the Constitution and as these are chipped away at we all can lose some freedom's.

I Don't get the point that other people could be hurt (beside's more police it is their job to protect us and defend the Constitution).Because, besides what the Media implies I can not think of one time in my live where a person has escaped the police when they have been cornered and surrounded, can you?

reply to post by rockymcgilicutty

I take your point about due process and it's another point many are making about Dorner. I ask though, which due process and how much of it? He did run his case through...and through..and through again for the civil court system in suing the LAPD to get his job back and get back on the street as a cop. He failed..utterly and in all attempts. Obviously, he didn't take that well.

He had days upon days to turn himself in...while seeing as well as anyone else, that innocent people were being shot in the hunt for him. So he had to know if he was caught, he likely wasn't going to be given more than one chance to surrender ...if that much. He could have walked into any L.A. area media organization and had every camera he needed or wanted to insure he wasn't killed during the arrest. He chose not to.

He could have surrendered after losing control of his hostages in Big Bear. Again, he chose not to. He ran and, in the last mistake fate would allow him, he ran himself into a corner. Again though, there were cameras and people watching. The media world was watching. He could have made the attempt at surrender....and chose not to.

IF he'd been trying to surrender in even the most passing way? In ANY way at all, really? I'd be at the front of the line calling for the arrest and prosecution of cops on that scene up to command level brass back in their command centers. However, not a shred of evidence supports the idea he ever attempted any form of surrender, at any point.

Quite the contrary....He told the world and the cops he WOULD kill as many as he could. He'd kill them and he'd kill their families.....and he started the rampage with the body of an Officers daughter with her fiance'. I'd say he proved he was a man of action, not mere words. Sadly..they took him at his word and deed....and handled it appropriately to the level of threat he posed while barricaded.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Wrabbit, please re read my post.I did not open it to debate Dorner,S.L.A Waco or Gordon Kahl etc..It was opened to show the similarties between their deaths only.I have stated twice that I do not condone their actions.

Originally posted by rockymcgilicutty " is it a way to silence people and cowl any voice of dissention. "

100% yes.

Death by fire is also highly symbolic. Not only is it a horrible way to die - it's also an absolutely frightening spectacle for the rest of us to behold. There is a reason why the Catholic Church favored death by fire for heretics. It sent a strong, strong message to the villagers who witnessed it.

Read a strong emphasis upon the word message. It is relevant.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


The Cops burned the branch dividians by "mistake" there is no arguing who did it. They pumped the complex full of flammable material with ongoing fire and so forthe.

They knew what the outcome would be.

reply to post by rockymcgilicutty

My bad.... I'll just drop off these threads most likely. I'm just way out of sync with the community here, apparently, in seeing the end of a cop killer.

You see similarities. I see absolutely none aside from..well, fire is a lethal thing. Literally, no similarity on any level beyond that. So...Indeed... I'll probably just step back off the WHOLE topic in general.

Almost any other case of a guy killing innocent people .....holding hostages....and ambushing cops like a sport would bring condemnation. This mutt? Everyone seeks reasons why this or that isn't the case ..or comparisons to make this better or less objectionable. I don't and can't understand any of it. I just don't.

A killer got killed. That's all I saw happen here. I really am TOTALLY lost as to how anyone sees more than that. I'll watch though....perhaps, some day, someone will explain what about THIS killer was special....for even the time you took for this OP is beyond the effort to find anything positive extended to 99% of the bad guys ATS debates about, daily. That is what leaves me confused beyond words...and now? Hopping off to ponder things.

What about Christopher Dorner makes him worth even the time to write this? Many see SOMETHING I'm obviously blind to in the guy.

So he killed people.. Have you proof of this? Should a court of Law not be the ones to decide?
What about the innocents shot by the LAPD? They also killed him, so they are killers too.
The law does not say - an Eye for an Eye

reply to post by Taggart


That's my point I guess you meant that for the other poster.

reply to post by GogoVicMorrow

The official reports, physical evidence and eye witness testimony by cops, media and the Davidians themselves in open court completely contradict that assessment of events. I know it's the popular one...but it's one not supported by anything in the way of actual evidence. Again....I've been through the reports and evidence. Hundreds of pages of it. On this, I'm not guessing or generalizing ...nor am I taking a single thing from media as basis for events there. It's all in the evidence .....and it's VERY clear to what happened that morning. The fact popular myth and misconception bears little resemblance is neither surprising nor particularly worth the time to correct .......as proof will likely just be dismissed as "planted lies" anyway.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Have you ever watched the video that is constantly banned from everywhere taken from the police themselves showing the flamethrowers, 2 tanks, and the machine gunning of the people who tried to flee from the burning buildings in waco ??

You should do a good hard search for it because you are talking out of your ass.

Originally posted by rockymcgilicutty
reply to post by Taggart

 

That's my point I guess you meant that for the other poster.

Yes it was aimed at Wrabbit2000