A Little Letter from John Ashcroft and Tom Ridge to my dad

Originally posted by geocom
Just a Note for all of you
More planes have been physically crashed by terrorist than blown up.
And let's face it the only explosives on the Sept 11, 2001 was the fuel.

I still have some concerns about this, I'm not saying that the terrorist persay had the explosives on scene, but maybe that as in Oklahoma City maybe the Goverment had some ordanence in an office of theirs in the building. After all their OKC office had explosive ordanence in it and there was a daycare only 3 floors below. So one side or the other had some during this deal. Bulding #7 ecspesially concerns me cause it had minimal fires and didnt get direct damage from the collapse of the towers yet fell anyway , and that building was the most reforced of them all having solid steel beams instead of conventional I beams which are smaller.

Another thing that worries me is the total lack of debate over the patriot act. A major bill passing in six weeks?!? They wrote it that fast huh? Yeah...
The two people that publically voiced their concerns over the patriot act also just happened to be the two people that received anthrax in the mail, as well as some media outlets...

www.oilempire.us...
Leahy asked Ashcroft by what authority had he decided - on his own and without judicial review - to nullify the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution. He asked for an explanation and some description of the procedural safeguards that Ashcroft would put in place. He asked Ashcroft to appear before the Judiciary committee and to respond in writing by November 13.
His answer came a little late.
On November 16, Patrick Leahy received an anthrax letter. And, as of this press time, Ashcroft has not responded in writing....

The DNA sequence of the anthrax sent through the US mail in 2001 has been revealed and confirms suspicions that the bacteria originally came from a US military laboratory.

Here's some more info...
www.google.com...

Edit: Fixed quotations Error

[edit on 31-10-2004 by twitchy]

Originally posted by twitchy
Another thing that worries me is the total lack of debate over the patriot act. A major bill passing in six weeks?!? They wrote it that fast huh? Yeah...
The two people that publically voiced their concerns over the patriot act also just happened to be the two people that received anthrax in the mail, as well as some media outlets...

www.oilempire.us...
Leahy asked Ashcroft by what authority had he decided - on his own and without judicial review - to nullify the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution. He asked for an explanation and some description of the procedural safeguards that Ashcroft would put in place. He asked Ashcroft to appear before the Judiciary committee and to respond in writing by November 13.
His answer came a little late.
On November 16, Patrick Leahy received an anthrax letter. And, as of this press time, Ashcroft has not responded in writing....

The DNA sequence of the anthrax sent through the US mail in 2001 has been revealed and confirms suspicions that the bacteria originally came from a US military laboratory.

Here's some more info...
www.google.com...

Edit: Fixed quotations Error

[edit on 31-10-2004 by twitchy]

The best answer that can be given is that, the words goverment and trust are not kindred in the function. Be sceptical of all dont even trust yourself.

Originally posted by Amuk

Originally posted by dcgolf
John Hancock, Thomas Jefferson and the like did not know about Islamic hatred and the perception of American dominance.

Really? They fought with muslim pirates and signed a treaty with them. I for one would rather take my chances on being killed by a terrorist then live in a country where I or my property can be searched by the government on the whim of some lackey

Is the fear so great and the need to be "protected" that we are willing to give up every shred of freedom and privicy for "safety"

I never thought I would live to see the day we would BEG the government to take away our freedom to protect us from a problem they created to begin with

I agree 100%. Maybe that's because my home state's motto is "Live Free or Die," I really don't give a # about the dying part as long as the Live Free comes through.

You have a far better chance of having your right taken away by your own government than you do a terrorist. You have a higher chance of your own government exploiting terrorism to clamp down on your liberties than you do having your liberties taken by terrorists.

So we have a choice, security or liberty. Give me liberty any day. How does anybody think a free country morphs into a dictatorship? It does it by exploiting fear until people beg to be enslaved. Pathetic. You can see it happening around you.

"It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace-- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"

-- Patrick Henry

the full speech can be found here: libertyonline.hypermall.com...

It was given on March 20th, 1775 in St. John's Church in Richmond. He was speaking about the Revolutionary War, and how important it was, to him, to fight for freedom. To live a free man, to him, was worth his death.

As I stated before, this is not something to be taken lightly. It is the gravest, most important decision a free man can make. How important is your freedom? Would you be willing to die for it as those before you have done?

- Dom

The US government should wait until they have a reason to enact measures such as these. Once the terrorists actually start killing American the way they are killing Israelis then even the people will want the government to search their bags. There was an attack three years ago. Now the US citizens are complacent and forgetful so let them have their freedom until it becoms a danger to them.

Originally posted by verfed
There was an attack three years ago. Now the US citizens are complacent and forgetful so let them have their freedom until it becoms a danger to them.

Freedom is never a danger to Americans.

There was an attack. We never found out who did it. 3,000 people died. Someone robbed billions of dollars from it. It provided a political carte blanche for politicians and essentially erased half our Bill of Rights.

I think it's a bit hasty to say that FREEDOM was the cause for it all, when there has never even been a single trial to determine who did it.

You sound a lot like a Nazi: "Freedom is dangerous." LMAO.

Well, I think I'll end the thread here, unless someone else has n opinion to present. I've really enjoyed the debate, and hopefully we can have more like this in the future that was so free (for the most part) of petty attacks, and senseless claims.

Remember to vote tomorrow, and remember how important freedom is. I hope tomorrow, a new and better America is found.

- Dom

Enjoy your 'freedom'

Get Revenge!!!

Pack all kinds of embarassing unmentionables into your bag....ya know, nude photos of fat ugly women, sex toys, women's unmentionables, stinky cheese.......things that would make a grown man's face turn red!!

[edit on 2-11-2004 by dawnstar]

EXCELLENT I AM GLAD THEY DID THAT TO YOUR DADS BAG !
THANK GOD THEY ARE ACTUALLY SEARCHING THE BAGS! HEY IF YOU DO NOT LIKE IT THEN GET OFF THE PLANE AND WALK FOOL!!!!!!!!

AND I JUST THOUGHT I WOULD ADD CONGRATULATIONS TO GEORGE BUSH 4 MORE YEARS NOW LETS KILL LOTS OF TERRORISTS! BRING IT ON!

On my way home from Virginia last summer, the TSA searched my luggage as well and stopped at a very personal article of mine, my biological father's burial flag. My Biological Father, J. R. Carter, first cousin to President Jimmy Carter, died from CPOD, and they , the TSA searched our bags until they came across the flag, then they stopped, left a we're sorry note and went on to someone elses bag. I wonder what those sick bastards thought when they came across the burial flag of a man who served in the Army during WWII, and Korea, a man whose family has lived in this country for close to 400 years, a man whose family has fought in every way this country has ever had. My adopted father, who was in WWII, Korea and Vietnam had better not have is burial flag disturbed when his time comes, the TSA is a bunch of sick bastards.

"Unreasonable is expecting to be protected from terrorism without something as fundamental as baggage searches.

I am becoming more and more amazed at the kinds of thinking I am seeing on these boards."

Would be willing to give up his freedom for security! You have a better chance of dying in the shower this morning than being killed by a terrorist, plus only a puss would be afraid.

i didnt read this whole thread, just jumped to the end to reply so if somebody has already said this...sorry

ok, for the most part i agree with you. but statements like....

"We are not free men who stand in the light of liberty, but criminals who will be searched, seized, and thrown into the blackest hells of dungeons deep, and labeled enemy combatants if you disagree."

.....open your argument up for criticism. a bit dramatic dont ya say?

-criminals? are you guilty of something? chill out a minute.

-thrown into the blackest hells of dungeons deep?
-please, they checked your dads bag.

and no they dont throw you in dungeons for disagreeing....yet. -they only do that if you're actually packing a bomb or something. this isnt auschwitz quite yet so dont whine like it is.

i was in complete agreement with everything said until that point. but when you started your little plea for voting and seeing the "real truth," i had to rethink that you're just another sensationalist of maybe 15 years. get a grip.

Originally posted by lost
-criminals? are you guilty of something? chill out a minute.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. They treat us like we are guilty of something, and they have probable cause to search us, when they don't. The fourth amendment states that a search can only be done with probable cause, and under a warrant. That's the entire point of this thread.

i was in complete agreement with everything said until that point. but when you started your little plea for voting and seeing the "real truth," i had to rethink that you're just another sensationalist of maybe 15 years. get a grip.

I can see what you're saying, but how else can things be changed except for voting, lobbying, and protesting? These are the tools we have been given to change things by our forefathers so that we didn't have to resort to militias and killing each other. If you don't agree things need to be changed, then you don't have to worry about it.

- Dom

The TSA is just another arm of the government, reaching it's claws into your everyday lives. I mean, don't the screeners and security guards have 'profiles' they should be checking for? When was the last time an 80 year old woman, or a mother with a little baby involved in a skyjacking? As these people are stopped and cavity searched, a person who fits the 'profile' doesn't get stopped, because they are afraid of being accused of 'racial profiling'.

Originally posted by Majic
Unreasonable is expecting to be protected from terrorism without something as fundamental as baggage searches.

I am becoming more and more amazed at the kinds of thinking I am seeing on these boards.

Your safety and security are not achieved by magical means. People work very hard to protect you, and in exchange for that, they are maligned by those who have no idea about what is actually going on. Nice.

Yes, reasonable people actually do read what is posted here, and yes, searching baggage checked on TSA-protected carriers is reasonable.

I can't be the only one who is shocked that I even have to explain this.

Childish carping is not the way to Deny Ignorance.

[edit on 10/30/2004 by Majic]

You are truly ignorant and lazy aren't you?
Your security, just like OBL said doesn't lay with the government, president, police, FBI, CIA any of that, you are respondsible for your own security? what are you going to do when someone who is currupt from either of those "organisations" (gangs) decides to use their power to mould you and make you do what they want you to do?
Just because you don't live on the streets doesn't mean those people don't exist. You realize a person who is homeless can actually do NOTHING, they can't apply for help without a home. Can't get a home without a job, can't get a job without a home. Of course they don't like the shelters (would you sleep there with the crime and disease?) No! Well why would you expect them too? especially being a teen or younger even.
I've seen it where the police take it upon themselves to search through their grocery carts or bags, throwing things on the ground and upon finding nothing, just walk away not bothering to help clean up.
These laws and "acts", hell, the whole society is nothing but keeping the rich, rich, and keeping the poor between live and death. Just survivin'

In response to the unauthorized searches in airports, Well thats great and all... Of course when you know your weak, you attempt to make it strong, but that just takes efforts and concentration away from something else. Theres ALWAYS something else, you don't see them searching people on Greyhound buses. The problem is, unless WE (The Citizens) know whats happening, We can't protect ourselves and since the Government is using these events to guide us in the direction of their ultimate plans. We can't trust what we see on TV, or known resources. We now have to go to the sources our sources use, and beyond that. We have to be as Wise as Serpents but as innocent as Doves. The End is Where the Beginning is, because we are finally waking up (WE, citizens of Earth, of God)
Not religeon either, No words or scriptures or people or places. Just God. Obviously we don't simply just exist.

Originally posted by nathraq
The TSA is just another arm of the government, reaching it's claws into your everyday lives. I mean, don't the screeners and security guards have 'profiles' they should be checking for? When was the last time an 80 year old woman, or a mother with a little baby involved in a skyjacking? As these people are stopped and cavity searched, a person who fits the 'profile' doesn't get stopped, because they are afraid of being accused of 'racial profiling'.

When's the last time a white male drove a vehicle filled with Ammonium Nitrate and fuel oil next to a Federal Building (OKC)? When's the last time a member of an airlines went crazy and tried to crash a plane (PSA 1987, FedEx 1991)? When's the last time a crazy white man sent letter bombs thru the mail (Unibomber 1970s-1990s)? What does a terrorist look like?

Richard Reid was not arabic. The DC snipers were not arabic.

What does a terrorist look like?

Profiling is a tool, not the answer.

Some interesting information to consider ,...

Airport security has not bred safety.

Yes, we are trying to protect ourselves from terrorists and ill harm to passenger's, as well as the freedom to travel anywhere within the country. Extreme measures have been taken and have most likely saved us from any further incident.

But consider this for a moment.

This protection and necessary inconveniences at the airport were designed to prevent any persons with the capability (or equipment/devices/fingernail clippers) ; to do anything with ill-intent, from boarding. This is to protect the rights of the other's to travel freely without fear. So a system was set up. Much screening. Much.

And they hired security personnel to fill the ranks.
We must by law abide by their requests in the namesake of security.
All they need to do is hit the button on the radio, and you wont be seen for quite awhile.

So who are these security people ?...
That we entrust our freedom's to, in the name of security.

some link's ,...
(you can google for many more, their all over the place)
(and remember, these people are acting in a 'national security' capacity.)

32 women complain of groping, fondling during airport body searches

Solana Beach Man Claims Airport Guard Groped Him

Lexington Woman Claims An Airport Security Screener Groped Her

And those were just some 'minor' offenses ,... it seems they are missing some things though ,...

Airport security failures persist

One in four airport screeners fail

So, what have they been doing when their not violating a person's person?,... (or doing their job) , ...

4 Indicted In Alleged Airport Computer Theft Ring

But big plans are in place, and more new equipment ,...

New Era In Airport Security

Angry Reax To Airport Screening


I dont know about you, .. I just dont get alot of that feeling of being too secure at an airport now. It seemed before all this, it was a statistical improbability easily insured against. And rarely ever occurred. You wrote that thought off upon boarding. I dont recall too many hijackings since 911, but on the other hand, damn near anybody could grope me, steal from me, investigate and profile me, all in the name of security.


edit - removed invalid link



[edit on 2-11-2004 by smirkley]

Originally posted by SHADOW266

What does a terrorist look like?

Profiling is a tool, not the answer.

You're talking, what, 4 accounts?

What about the Terrorist Attack Timeline?

1920
Sept. 16, New York City: TNT bomb planted in unattended horse-drawn wagon exploded on Wall Street opposite House of Morgan, killing 35 people and injuring hundreds more. Bolshevist or anarchist terrorists believed responsible, but crime never solved.

1975
Jan. 24, New York City: bomb set off in historic Fraunces Tavern killed 4 and injured more than 50 people. Puerto Rican nationalist group (FALN) claimed responsibility, and police tied 13 other bombings to the group.

1979
Nov. 4, Tehran, Iran: Iranian radical students seized the U.S. embassy, taking 66 hostages. Fourteen were later released. The remaining 52 were freed after 444 days on the day of President Reagan's inauguration.

1982�1991
Lebanon: Thirty US and other Western hostages kidnapped in Lebanon by Hezbollah. Some were killed, some died in captivity, and some were eventually released. Terry Anderson was held for 2,454 days.

1983
April 18, Beirut, Lebanon: U.S. embassy destroyed in suicide car-bomb attack; 63 dead, including 17 Americans. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.

Oct. 23, Beirut, Lebanon: Shiite suicide bombers exploded truck near U.S. military barracks at Beirut airport, killing 241 Marines. Minutes later a second bomb killed 58 French paratroopers in their barracks in West Beirut.

Dec. 12, Kuwait City, Kuwait Shiite truck bombers attacked the U.S. embassy and other targets, killing 5 and injuring 80.

1984
Sept. 20, east Beirut, Lebanon: truck bomb exploded outside the U.S. embassy annex, killing 24, including 2 U.S. military.
Dec. 3, Beirut, Lebanon: Kuwait Airways Flight 221, from Kuwait to Pakistan, hijacked and diverted to Tehran. Two Americans killed.

1985
April 12, Madrid, Spain: Bombing at restaurant frequented by U.S. soldiers, killed 18 Spaniards and injured 82.

June 14, Beirut, Lebanon: TWA flight 847 en route from Athens to Rome hijacked to Beirut by Hezbollah terrorists and held for 17 days. A U.S. Navy diver executed.

Oct. 7, Mediterranean Sea: gunmen attack Italian cruise ship, Achille Lauro. One U.S. tourist killed. Hijacking linked to Libya.

Dec. 18, Rome, Italy, and Vienna, Austria: airports in Rome and Vienna were bombed, killing 20 people, 5 of whom were Americans. Bombing linked to Libya.

1986
April 2, Athens, Greece:A bomb exploded aboard TWA flight 840 en route from Rome to Athens, killing 4 Americans and injuring 9.
April 5, West Berlin, Germany: Libyans bombed a disco frequented by U.S. servicemen, killing 2 and injuring hundreds.

1988
Dec. 21, Lockerbie, Scotland: N.Y.-bound Pan-Am Boeing 747 exploded in flight from a terrorist bomb and crashed into Scottish village, killing all 259 aboard and 11 on the ground. Passengers included 35 Syracuse University students and many U.S. military personnel. Libya formally admitted responsibility 15 years later (Aug. 2003) and offered $2.7 billion compensation to victims' families.

1993
Feb. 26, New York City: bomb exploded in basement garage of World Trade Center, killing 6 and injuring at least 1,040 others. In 1995, militant Islamist Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman and 9 others were convicted of conspiracy charges, and in 1998, Ramzi Yousef, believed to have been the mastermind, was convicted of the bombing. Al-Qaeda involvement is suspected.

1995
April 19, Oklahoma City: car bomb exploded outside federal office building, collapsing wall and floors. 168 people were killed, including 19 children and 1 person who died in rescue effort. Over 220 buildings sustained damage. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols later convicted in the antigovernment plot to avenge the Branch Davidian standoff in Waco, Tex., exactly two years earlier. (See Miscellaneous Disasters.)

Nov. 13, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: car bomb exploded at U.S. military headquarters, killing five U.S. military servicemen.

1996
June 25, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia: truck bomb exploded outside Khobar Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring hundreds of others. Thirteen Saudis and a Lebanese, all alleged members of Islamic militant group Hezbollah, were indicted on charges relating to the attack in June 2001.

1998
Aug. 7, Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania: truck bombs exploded almost simultaneously near 2 U.S. embassies, killing 224 (213 in Kenya and 11 in Tanzania) and injuring about 4,500. Four men connected with al-Qaeda two of whom had received training at al-Qaeda camps inside Afghanistan, were convicted of the killings in May 2001 and later sentenced to life in prison. A federal grand jury had indicted 22 men in connection with the attacks, including Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, who remained at large.

2000
Oct. 12, Aden, Yemen: U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole heavily damaged when a small boat loaded with explosives blew up alongside it. Seventeen sailors killed. Linked to Osama bin Laden, or members of al-Qaeda terrorist network.

2001
Sept. 11, New York City, Arlington, Va., and Shanksville, Pa.: hijackers crashed two commercial jets into twin towers of World Trade Center; two more hijacked jets were crashed into the Pentagon and a field in rural Pa. Total dead and missing numbered 2,9921: 2,749 in New York City, 184 at the Pentagon, 40 in Pa., and 19 hijackers. Islamic al-Qaeda terrorist group blamed. (See September 11, 2001: Timeline of Terrorism.)

2002
June 14, Karachi, Pakistan: bomb exploded outside American consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12. Linked to al-Qaeda.

2003
May 12, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: suicide bombers killed 34, including eight Americans, at housing compounds for Westerners. Al-Qaeda suspected.

2004
May 29�31, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists attack the offices of a Saudi oil company in Khobar, Saudi Arabia, take foreign oil workers hostage in a nearby residential compound, leaving 22 people dead including one American.

June 11�19, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists kidnap and execute Paul Johnson Jr., an American, in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.


How many French, German, English, Italians, and other Europeans were involved? How many old women and young mothers were involved? How many Asians were involved? Or African-Americans? Or Mexicans?

These people do not need to be stopped at a checkpoint, unless there is something strange about their demeanor. Trying to protect those who actually carry out the attacks is not going to stop them. They actually want more people who think the way you do.