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A Little Letter from John Ashcroft and Tom Ridge to my dad

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posted on Oct, 30 2004 @ 03:45 AM
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Originally posted by Kano

Originally posted by dcgolf
There was no way they could have forseen the current events. Much like we have no way of knowing what will happen one hundred years from now!


dc, I'm curious as to your opinion on the right to bear arms, is that outdated too?

I'm seeing an interesting and largely unspoken dichotomy coming from some US members. Those who are very keen to retain their right to bear all sorts of firearms under the justification that they will be used to preserve their rights, are often the first ones to defend the erosion of those very rights in the name of security.

Now I personally don't have a problem with submitting to searches when flying on a plane, you'd have to be pretty foolish to take anything illegal on board anyway with the other forms of security in place. But the duality in the opinions of some members on these issues is quite interesting. I would have thought those advocating gun rights would be the first ones objecting to the current destruction of citizens rights?

I acknowledge there are many who are in that position, but they seem to be by far in the minority, I am curious why that would be the case.


I've flown to Mexico twice since 9/11. Once, a member of my traveling party had laundry detergent as part of her carry on. Originally, she was refused travel. After thourough examination, it was determined she was carrying soap and allowed to continue with our trip. While it was an inconvenience, it did make me feel safer. The extra five minutes of "hassle" made me feel 100 percent safer on my flight!




posted on Oct, 30 2004 @ 03:46 AM
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I can't even count how many times I have flown since 9-11. I get that little tag from the TSA on each trip there and back. I just dont lock my luggage anymore. I really don't care if they go through it or not. If they want to check my bag for a bomb so be it. They won't find one. I guess if I had on e I would be upset that they found it! Every time I have gone back to our farm in Missouri my gun goes with me. You check it in with your luggage and they put a red firearm tag on it. If it is a pistol with ammunition the pilot must get of the plane and come to the counter and sign for it. That has not changed since day one. Go ahead and check my bag. If my pistol is gone when I get there its TSA's problem and I expect a check from Delta. You should see peoples reaction in line when you pull out a gun at the check-in counter to show that its unloaded.

Its not like they were trying to single your dad out. They were doing there job to keep the rest of the passengers safe. I gurantee you the rest of the passengers were not worried about their 20th Ammendment rights at the moment. They just want to get where they are going safely.

For real fun, when you come to Washington D.C. to visit. Fly to Reagan National. You must remain in your seat 30 minutes before landing or the pilot WILL take the plane to Pittsburgh. Just watch the morons trying to squeeze in that last potty break. Then watch the passengers get peed off at them because the pilot just told them to sit the hell down and all they want to do is land and go home. Talk about air rage.

Maybe you should start your own airline. CheckFree Airways. Just let everyone so concerened about the 20th Ammendment and less concerened about saftey fly with you. Kidding of course.



posted on Oct, 30 2004 @ 03:53 AM
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Originally posted by dcgolf
Would you really rather die than have your house searched by government officials? If a government official came to your house tomorrow, wolud you take a bullet in the head as opposed to letting them search your house. If so, I respect you more than words can express!


It depends, its not so much one search as the overall outlook.

Are you saying you would submit to any amount of government harrassment just to save your life? You will make a great slave.

My trouble is really not so much with any rule it is more with a HUGE portion of Americans that would give up any and all rights at the drop of a hat in return for "protection" They have a word for people like that in prison, they are called bitches.

Better men than us have fought and died to give us these freedoms that you are so quick to give away. Do you think they would be proud to see Americans rush for the chance to grovel at the feet of our "protector"?

Grady I have my Bike I dont need a plane or a ride



posted on Oct, 30 2004 @ 04:04 AM
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Originally posted by Amuk

Originally posted by dcgolf
Would you really rather die than have your house searched by government officials? If a government official came to your house tomorrow, wolud you take a bullet in the head as opposed to letting them search your house. If so, I respect you more than words can express!


I

t depends, its not so much one search as the overall outlook.

Are you saying you would submit to any amount of government harrassment just to save your life? You will make a great slave.

My trouble is really not so much with any rule it is more with a HUGE portion of Americans that would give up any and all rights at the drop of a hat in return for "protection" They have a word for people like that in prison, they are called bitches

Better men than us have fought and died to give us these freedoms that you are so quick to give away. Do you think they would be proud to see Americans rush for the chance to grovel at the feet of our "protector"?

Grady I have my Bike I dont need a plane or a ride


Actually, I was asking how far you would go to defend your beliefs. I would take a bullet in the head right now and leave my wife and three girls to defend the principles argured in this thread. What can I say, Jesus is above all!!!!



posted on Oct, 30 2004 @ 05:02 AM
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The Jeffersonian era is far from dead, and no less appropriate today than the Bill of Rights.

But it never amazes me the citizens that suggest that is 'old school' thinking.

It is no different than trading in the old, paid for, still functional and practical car, for the new model that has higher costs, but sure looks good in the driveway, but likely will not be as practical or long-living. But again, it looks and operates sooo modern. And look at all the cool buttons to play with, flashing lights, digital displays, etc.

And then to suggest the old cars be pulled off the highway and removed from service because they no longer align with the 'New Paradigm'. (Remember that term for the stock market a few short years ago?)


"It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself."
Thomas Jefferson


"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."
Thomas Jefferson


"They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759



And yes, today, apparently it IS appropriate to pass your freedoms for the sake of safety. hmmmm. Soo many famous quotes from the ol' guy's. Were they just like the modern politicians? Telling the people what they wanted to hear for the sake of getting elected?

How safe do you want to feel and at what expense? At all expense? At the expense of your freedom's?

[edit on 30-10-2004 by smirkley]



posted on Oct, 30 2004 @ 07:31 AM
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I FLY FREQUENTLY, USUALLY 4-5 ROUND TRIPS EACH YEAR. I DO NOT LIKE HAVING TO LEAVE MY BAGS UNLOCKED SO JUST ANY CLOWN CAN GO THROUGH THEM, INCLUDING SECURITY PERSONNEL AND BAGGAGE HANDLERS. I DEAL WITH THE PUBLIC DAILY AND I AM LESS THAN IMPRESSED WITH THEIR PERSONAL HYGENE. EVEN IF THE INSPECTOR WAS FASTIDIOUS (SP.?), HOW ABOUT THE 100 PREVIOUS BAGS HE HAS SEARCHED THAT DAY? NOW, YOU WANT ME TO WEAR THOSE CLOTHES THAT HE/SHE JUST WIPED HIS HANDS THROUGH?!? (I WASH NEW CLOTHES BEFORE I WEAR THEM- WHO KNOWS WHO HAS TRIED THEM ON BEFORE ME!) THERE IS MUCH I DON'T LIKE ABOUT THAT SET-UP!
THAT SAID, I ALSO KNOW THAT I AUTHORIZED THEM TO SEARCH MY GEAR. IT'S IN THE AIRLINE'S PAPERWORK AND THEIR WEB-SITES WHEN YOU BUY YOUR TICKET. READ ALL CONTRACTS BEFORE YOU SIGN THEM! ALWAYS & FOREVER! I DON'T LIKE IT, NEVER HAVE AND NEVER WILL, BUT I DIS-LIKE DRIVING 3 DAYS FROM TEXAS TO MICHIGAN/ CALIFORNIA/ NEW YORK EVEN LESS, SO I AUTHORIZE THE UN-WARRANTED SEARCH OF MY GEAR. IT'S A TRADE OFF, LIKE MOST OF LIFE. I AM SECURE IN MY HOME (& PERSON) AGAINST UN-WARRANTED SEARCHES, WHICH IS ONE OF THE MANY THINGS THE BILL OF RIGHTS SUPPOSEDLY GRANTS ME. IT'S WHEN I GO OUT INTO THE REAL WORLD THAT I HAVE TO FUNCTION IN SOCIETY, WHICH MEANS NOT DOING EVERY LITTLE THING I WANT TO. I CAN'T DRIVE 100 MPH; I CAN'T FORCE MY WAY INTO MY BANK AFTER CLOSING TO GET OUT MY OWN MONEY; AND I CAN'T FLY ON A PUBLIC AIRLINER WITHOUT ALLOWING THEM TO CHECK MY LUGGAGE FOR EXPLOSIVES. THAT'S THE WAY IT IS, DEAL WITH IT. IF YOUR PRIVACY IS MORE IMPORTANT TO YOU THAN YOUR TIME, THEN DRIVE!
I GET THE UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL VERSION OF THEIR SEARCHING ALMOST EVERY TIME I FLY (PROBABLY MY SUBLIMITAL "DON'T MESS W/ME" COP AURA THAT THE TINY ATTILAS DISPISE). I PUT UP WITH IT BECAUSE THAT INCONVIENENCE IS LESS THAN THE 3 DAY DRIVE INCONVIENENCE.



posted on Oct, 30 2004 @ 07:42 AM
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Frankly I am AMAZED that people are not more up in arms about this.

It's a secret search. Unsupervised. You're unaware of it. They are going through your personal belongings because of some POSSIBLE threat you may pose. How many times does this happen and there is NO letter sent? Once they do a cost analysis do you think they will continue to send out these letters?

Once they realize that some people don't appreciate getting a letter that essentially says "Hey sorry, we kind of had to rifle through your stuff to make sure you're not a bad person planning something against your fellow Americans. Good news, though, we didn't find anything incriminating. So, um, continue along with your day, sheep. Be good. We're watching."

Am I aghast at this because I have anything to hide? Hell no. Do I want some sweaty-handed "security guard" pawing through the new lingerie I bought my girlfriend? Do I want them paging through my Daily Planner? Looking at my credit card statements? My reading material? If I have one of Michael Moore's book do I go on some kind of list?


As part of this process, some bags are opened and physically inspected. Your bag was among those selected for physical inspection..

During the inspection, your bag and its contents may have been searched for prohibited items. At the completion of the inspection, the contents were returned to your bag.


What is a prohibited item? Are the contents photographed? Is there some kind of record-keeping done? What's the process for determining which bags are searched? If they find what they perceive to be a "prohibited item", like, say, a pamphlet for a course in Middle Eastern studies, do they return it and then put you under surveillance? Based on that, can they then just go into your house when you're not there and conduct a secret search of your premises?

Guess what, read the Patriot Act. They can. And will.

You're supposedly living in the country that hails itself as a bastion of Freedom, and yet you're willing to give away something as BASIC as your privacy.

It really, really disappoints me, and makes me sad. And glad that I live in Canada, where at least I feel I have the delusion of privacy



posted on Oct, 30 2004 @ 08:17 AM
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some like to say that the founding fathers could never have taken into account terrorist ect..so alot of thier ideals don't count anymore. well they counldn't have taken into account big business and lobbyists with so much$$ to give to politicians that it has made the u.s. political system a sham.......we think we are 'free' only because sheepoles can't see the trees because of the forest.

in the name of saftey..you can't smoke in a privatly owned business (at least in some ..states) heck you can't even smoke in some public places or your car..

in the name of saftey your baggage will be checked regardless of destonation or race...unless of course you are muslim in apperance 'cause the govt wouldn't want to violate your rights and use 'profiling'

in the name of saftey..the govt passes the patriot acts in order to centralize and be able to check all background and personal info about any terrorist...oh, did i say terrorist.....i meant any person in america...'cause we are all terrorist..

in the name of saftey...the local law-enforcment will be able to conduct random house searches...........wait, hasn't happened..YET...but to all those who will so easily give away the freedoms of america..why shoud this one upset you, or random vehicle searches, or random searches at your work place, or random check of your background....

yes the founding fathers could not have predicted that the AMERICAN govt , though its actions, would gather so much hatred by so many that Americans would so willing give up thier freedoms in the name of 'saftey'..that the AMERICAN politcal system would be so bastardized by big business and $$ and lobbyists and special interest groups and corrupt politicains........

all this does not mean that the founding fathers words are less meaningfull...it just means that thier words are that much more inmortant today.. not just their words about freedom but more importantly, thier words about govt......the American people did not make so much hatred themselves.......it was the AMERICAN govt....now the American poeple are paying the price



posted on Oct, 30 2004 @ 08:42 AM
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I know of a family who was going to go to Disney world soon. They were told they could not travel to America unless the CHILDREN of 6 and 4 both had passports with Fingerprint data on. They would be refused access without it.

Stupid. Like a child is going to hijack the plane. To me its obvious that the reason for taken fingers prints etc is not for saftey but for database capture.

The plan is working wonderfully.

[edit on 30-10-2004 by 7th_Chakra]



posted on Oct, 30 2004 @ 11:30 AM
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Originally posted by twitchy
I can explain that one Kano, the right to bear arms is the only check or balance left to the citizenry of the US.

But isn't what is currently going on with the slow erosion of civil rights under the security banner precisely what the right to bear arms is intended to stop?



posted on Oct, 30 2004 @ 11:52 AM
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Originally posted by smirkley

It is no different than trading in the old, paid for, still functional and practical car, for the new model that has higher costs, but sure looks good in the driveway, but likely will not be as practical or long-living. But again, it looks and operates sooo modern. And look at all the cool buttons to play with, flashing lights, digital displays, etc.
[edit on 30-10-2004 by smirkley]


No different than trading in the old car? Tradin' in the old car requires less than a day of thought. Hell my last new car I had in my driveway in less than 4 hours.

How can you compare the constitution of the United States with tradin in the old car? You are a perfect example of why America begs to give up it's freedom. The candid thinking of let whatever happens happen is why we as Americans pay 50% in taxes and must stand 300 yards from the building of where the president conducts his speech.

Benjamin Franklin would spit upon your words of foolishness and so do I.



posted on Oct, 30 2004 @ 12:07 PM
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Originally posted by just_a_pilot
I can't even count how many times I have flown since 9-11. I get that little tag from the TSA on each trip there and back. I just dont lock my luggage anymore...


Hell even before 9/11. I cannot count the number of times my bags got searched and yes, things stolen (I despise LAX for just that reason). It is only because the number of searches has increased under the patriot act that people are noticing.

Remember when you purchase your ticket you are giving up your right to privacy - anything, including your person, can be searched. And as much as I have to fly, it does give me some peace of mind.


B



posted on Oct, 30 2004 @ 01:48 PM
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I must say I never thought this thread would get so many reponses, but I am certainly glad it did. It saddens me that so few people in our media have looked at these consequences of the War on Terror, and commented on them. I'm glad there is finally some discussion going on.

To answer the question several people asked me, yes, I would rather die in a terrorist attack than be treated like a criminal by my government. I really don't think that I am making a radical statement here, I am using basic logic to come to a conclusion. The fact that anyone can even say that this treatment is just something that we have to deal with is shocking to me. No, our forefathers did not have to deal with muslim terrorists or suicide bombers, but they knew that the sacrifice of freedom for security was absolutely out of the question.

Should a bag be searched if it is buzzing or vibrating? Well, of course it should, because that is probable cause. Traveling on an airplane is not. And the fact that airlines are private companies is even more reason for the Federal Government not to do searches. Why? They are a private company!

Being lax and simply accepting these plicies as "the way it is" is not the way to go. We must stand up and take back our freedoms, not through violent means, but through voting, campaigning and education. Mr. Jefferson would probably be organizing an underground militia right now, if he saw the current state of affairs, but I don't think that's the best course of action for us. I think if things are going to change, we must use the system to change them. I just hope its not too late.

- Dom



posted on Oct, 30 2004 @ 02:03 PM
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Originally posted by vincere7
Benjamin Franklin would spit upon your words of foolishness and so do I.



Well maybe that was not the analogy I needed to use to make my valid point. Hopefully, maybe Ben will forgive me. At least we know oil is not likely to hit $80 a barrel any time soon.



posted on Oct, 30 2004 @ 02:24 PM
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I don't like my bags being searched either, but until they get better bomb sniffing equipment I can deal with it. You wouldn't think it would be that difficult or expensive to have dogs at every checkpint.

My best advice is drive or hire a charter aircraft if you can & hopfully when they have a better handle on the situation they won't need to search your bags. Unless they plan on keeping this up to look for drugs & money.

One of the things that bother me more is they can sneak into your house & check things out withou a warrant it these days it seems. I know our founding fathers didn't want that. That bothers me allot more then asking to look in my bag when I'm getting on someone elses plane with lots of other people.



posted on Oct, 30 2004 @ 03:38 PM
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I live back in the hills where thay call you to come in to be arrested then released on your word you will show up for trial. One time there was a escaped convict hiding in the woods they were searching homes and a new cop came to my house demanding to be let in. I refused and told him there were no one in my house but my family, he started getting heated and I did too, both my sons came out and things got pretty close to getting out of hand before some cops with sense showed up and told him to shut up and leave.

The point behind the story was that was the excuse the new cop used was "It was for my own good" to allow him to search my home and property.

Have we grown so spineless as a country the we are willing to give up the last shreds of freedom for the safety of slavery? Like I said I seldom leave these hills but have things grown so bad out there that people are affraid to be free anymore?



posted on Oct, 30 2004 @ 03:52 PM
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You dad got a letter?.

All I got when I flew to the US last year was a sticker on the side of my suitcase saying something like 'Checked by Homeland Security'.

I feel hard done by



posted on Oct, 30 2004 @ 03:57 PM
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Yeah Exxon mobile profits are up 56% right now and of course as soon as Iraq starts pumping frequent oil everyone will sell short in the commodity market causing the price of oil to rapidly fall. Yo can bet Exxon already has their price points for next year.



posted on Oct, 30 2004 @ 04:01 PM
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Unreasonable to me is being unwilling to speak up and stand up against your own government for taking away your guaranteed rights. The Constitution and Bill of Rights is the fabric of our nation. If those are gone then what are we? If you make up an excuse to allow your bag to be searched without probable cause then you have just given them the green light to sensor your speech and infringe on your right to freedom of assembly. These are all things that have been slowly taken away over the years. What next? Your right to vote? Perhaps your right to own a gun. After all someone might shoot someone so the guns must go too. Do you see my point. Once you start making excuses for the government when they take away one right you have just said its ok to go ahead and take away the rest.



posted on Oct, 30 2004 @ 04:19 PM
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The seatbelt law is pure communism. A State enforced rule to protect insurance companies on the basis of statisitics and that we as Americans cannot decide whether or not to put ourselves in harms way while driving a vehicle moving at 80mph!

That simple law took away our right to choose for ourselves. Now you can be detained based on FALSE evidence WITHOUT access to an attorney. If an FBI agent says, 'hey buddy you are a terrorist,' you are screwed end of story.

Well now there is no need for evidence. They can kick open your door, stick a shotgun to your head, steal your possessions, scare the living #ey out of your kids, all on the premise of whatever an agent or officer says at the time about you.

Are we honesty supposed to believe that the patriot act is not going to be used and abused for the purposes of individuals that don't give a f##%?

Unless the patriot act is reversed there will be all kinds of atrocities and America will become a state where the people constantly fear the government.

As long as you're a good little drone and you have no opinion on state department policies or the white house agenda we will not screw with you is the statement being spoken loud and clear.



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