RAF Apache Weakness ?

Can anybody confirm. I've come across information suggesting that the RAF have around 8 Apache helicopters effectively mothballed and unoperational due to the fact that no pilots are able to fly then??? Can anybody confirm or shed more light on this for me?




[edit on 28-10-2004 by John bull 1]

It is a few more than eight
news.bbc.co.uk...

Speaking of apache's i also thought this was funny
news.bbc.co.uk...

i heard that firing weapons from either the left or right hand side (can't remember which) damages the rear rotor....any truth in this?

Originally posted by UK Wizard
i heard that firing weapons from either the left or right hand side (can't remember which) damages the rear rotor....any truth in this?

from
www.globalsecurity.org...

"Damage to 19 of 43 Apache Helicopters was detected following Hellfire missile firing during the USAREUR training exercise VICTORY STRIKE in Poland 06-18 October 2000. Damage to AH-64A Helicopter horizontal stabilators was initially attributed to ground debris then later to the Hellfire missile. Two Apache units fired 385 AGM-114C model missiles and numerous 2.75 inch rockets and 30MM rounds without incident. PEO Aviation System Safety Risk Assessment (SSRA) assigns a Category I-A risk (Catastrophic Probable) if missiles are fired from any position other than position number 4 on right outboard pylon. The SSRA applies only to the AH-64D Helicopter. SSRA for other helicopters is a "due-out" from PEO Aviation. AMCOM IMMC worldwide suspension of Hellfire missiles with the deficient Alliant/Hercules motors remained in place as of mid-2001. All Hellfire missiles with this motor were in CC-N, emergency combat use only. This included the entire inventory of the Longbow Hellfire Millimeter Wave (AGM-114L) missile, and nearly 90% of the latest Laser production assets (AGM-144 K &K-2). TURBO CADS (TC) is a TRANSCOM administered, JCS funded, MACOM supported, joint live ammunition containerization exercise."

The RAF have no apaches.

British apaches are flown by the Army Air Corps.

Ok, firstly, the RAF doesn't operate the WAH-64 Apaches, it's the Army.

Secondly, in 2004 when this thread began the Apache squadrons had only just been assembled, so it stands to reason that there aren't enough pilots. I believe this has changed significantly now. I know the Army has invested heavily in training establishments for both air and ground crews for the aircraft.

Oh, Paperplane, the US Apaches your article describes are different to the UK Apaches. I've not heard of any issues with firing missiles damaging the aircraft. That's not to say it doesn't happen, but I've not heard of it.

Apache Weakness ?

Yeah, against a half capable enemy they are expensive sitting ducks.


1 MANPAD + 1 Apache = 2 dead aircrew and $120million up in smoke

reply to post by kilcoo316


Given the sheer availability of MANPAD systems to almost anyone with money, their ease of use and the huge numbers of Apaches in active duty today, you would think they would be shot down more if such an inherrant weakness was true, would you not?

This is all rather embarassing, surely there are plenty of adventurous young men/women who would love to train to fly these helicopters?
Just a thought, don't we also have a hangar full of unflyable Chinooks too?
Regards,
Horsegiver.

reply to post by horsegiver


Note the date of the OP. This was when the squadrons were first becoming operational. The situation has improved since then, but remember, selection for the Army Air Corps is tight. They don't let any old monkey up in one of those.

The Chinook situation is an altogether different thing and is also old news.

Originally posted by stumason
[Given the sheer availability of MANPAD systems to almost anyone with money, their ease of use and the huge numbers of Apaches in active duty today, you would think they would be shot down more if such an inherrant weakness was true, would you not?

I hate to say it Stumason, but recent operations by the Apaches have been a bit of a disaster. The were held out of Bosnia, and then when they flew in Desert Storm II they did not fare well when they encountered alot of resistance. I think they have enough self protection against MANPADS but its the RPG's they are vulnerable too. While it was not Apaches, look at Blackhawk Down as well

The concept of the attack chopter will have to evolve and we see that in Irag today where they are used in the standoff role as opposed the direct attack weapon etc. The MV-22 will be just as vulnerable I think

Originally posted by stumason
Given the sheer availability of MANPAD systems to almost anyone with money, their ease of use and the huge numbers of Apaches in active duty today, you would think they would be shot down more if such an inherrant weakness was true, would you not?

As Fred has indicated, check how the usage of Apaches has changed.


And that is against 5th rate opposition, what would happen if the opponents had a half capable airforce or defence network?

I think it's more of a tactics issue, since all helicopters will be vulnerable to RPG as indeed are lot of ground vehicles are or to other man portable weapons.

History has shown tanks on there own can have similar problems.

I was forever seeing the marines cobras on the news and haven't heard similar problems I suspect because they were used as close support and so knew what was the safe areas to fly over.
Need to keep outside there weapons range and within yours, which I'm guessing is about 400-2000 meters if you want to use your gun.

Attacks helicopters tactics have more in common with ground tactics than air, If you wouldn't send your light armored recon then should you be sending your AH. They can't hold or secure ground or even hang about which is why they would of been no use in Bosnia.

I reckon the first gulf war lead to an unrealistic expectation of attack helicopters.

Originally posted by deckard83
I reckon the first gulf war lead to an unrealistic expectation of attack helicopters.

Indeed - the flat uncovered terrain allowed them to use stand-off munitions with great effect.


Getting drawn into a closer war in a forested Europe would reveal the weaknesses very sharpish.

A platoon, hiding out in a ditch with a handful of MANPADS could conceivably take out half a squadron of Apaches before the choppers knew what hit them.