A question, and thoughts about, "saints".

Last night I dreamed I met someone - who was living, contemporaneous with myself - and was introduced to me as a "saint."

Is this possible, do you guys think?
Are there really "saints" who already know they are, or have been acknowledged as "saints"?

Do "martyrs" achieve "sainthood"?

We all know the phrase "he's a regular saint!" when speaking about someone who is very, very "good."

Are "martyrs" and "saints" purely Christian constructs?
Why is Jesus not called a "saint"?

Just my rambling thoughts. Anyone else have ideas about this?

I'll also note, this "saint" person I met in my dream was young - maybe in their 20s.
Not dressed in any "ethnic" or "historic re-enactment" garb, either.

Just a 'regular' person, who was a saint.
I don't recall where the dream went from there, but as I was gazing at the forums just now I recalled the dream.

reply to post by wildtimes


Maybe it was your inner-self that you met?

What do you mean by contemporaneous? Do you mean you met someone else who lives right now, in a dream? I'm confused about what you're asking, sorry.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Yeah, in my dreams, people seem as real as they do in my waking hours...
situations are always "contemporary" in terms of it being "here and now" modern society. No, I don't think it was "me"; and I was very surprised (like, "you're a 'saint'? Really?") but they confirmed yes, they were.

It was not someone I "recognize" from this life, either. Total stranger in terms of my 'dream-world'.

In Christianity, there are two types of saints.

The first, which is held by both Protestants and Catholics, is the whole community of believers -- this description is derived from Paul, and anyone who is a Christian is a saint.

The second references particularly devout people, and is largely limited to the Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Anglican religions. In the case of Catholics, for example, there are specific criteria for being considered for the title "Saint", and such people are not "made" by the church, they're just recognized for their piety.

reply to post by adjensen

In the case of Catholics, for example, there are specific criteria for being considered for the title "Saint", and such people are not "made" by the church, they're just recognized for their piety.

While they're still alive?

What about these retroactive "beatifications" that the Catholic Church bestows?

Like - Mother Teresa, for example. Was she considered "Saint Teresa" before she died? Hmmm...i was under the impression that one doesn't become "sainted" until they are dead and their life's contributions are looked at in whole.

Also, are their "saints" recognized for their piety who are not Christians?
For example, Ghandi?

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by adjensen

 

In the case of Catholics, for example, there are specific criteria for being considered for the title "Saint", and such people are not "made" by the church, they're just recognized for their piety.

While they're still alive?

What about these retroactive "beatifications" that the Catholic Church bestows?

Like - Mother Teresa, for example. Was she considered "Saint Teresa" before she died? Hmmm...i was under the impression that one doesn't become "sainted" until they are dead and their life's contributions are looked at in whole.

Nope. You can't be considered for sainthood until you're dead.

reply to post by wildtimes


If sainthood is based on what you do while alive then yes, I think you can be considered a saint while still alive.

Whether someone labels you a saint or not doesn't matter, what you do matters and if you do the works of a saint then you are a saint no matter what labels people decide to give or not give you. My opinion of course.

reply to post by adjensen

From your link:

In official Church procedures there are three steps to sainthood: one becomes Venerable, Blessed and then a Saint. Venerable is the title given to a deceased person recognized as having lived heroic virtues. To be recognized as a blessed, and therefore beatified, in addition to personal attributes of charity and heroic virtue, one miracle, acquired through the individual's intercession, is required. Canonization requires two, though a Pope may waive these requirements. Martyrdom does not usually require a miracle.

So, martyrs are not necessarily "saints", I take it?

Also, why is Jesus not referred to as "Saint Jesus", or "Saint God"?

What's the differencebetween "Venerable" as in beatifed, and "sainted" as in Canonized?

Originally posted by wildtimes
Also, are their "saints" recognized for their piety who are not Christians?
For example, Ghandi?

No, since "Saint", as recognized by the Roman Catholic Church, is a church title, you'd need to be a Catholic to be considered. One presumes that, for non-Catholics, their own religion would have something similar, and that most non-Catholics wouldn't want the title anyway.

reply to post by adjensen

No, since "Saint", as recognized by the Roman Catholic Church, is a church title, you'd need to be a Catholic to be considered.

Okay...
but, why?

Jesus is not a "Saint" because he wasn't Catholic?
What about the fantastic people who aren't Catholic, like Ghandi and Mother Teresa and the Dalai Lama?

Does Christian "heaven" recognize them?

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by adjensen

 

From your link:

In official Church procedures there are three steps to sainthood: one becomes Venerable, Blessed and then a Saint. Venerable is the title given to a deceased person recognized as having lived heroic virtues. To be recognized as a blessed, and therefore beatified, in addition to personal attributes of charity and heroic virtue, one miracle, acquired through the individual's intercession, is required. Canonization requires two, though a Pope may waive these requirements. Martyrdom does not usually require a miracle.

So, martyrs are not necessarily "saints", I take it?

Not necessarily, no (in the official sense, like I said, we're all "lower case saints") but as noted there, it's a bit easier for a martyr to qualify.

Also, why is Jesus not referred to as "Saint Jesus", or "Saint God"?

We see Jesus as God, so remarking on his piety is kind of pointless.

What's the difference between "Venerable" as in beatifed, and "sainted" as in Canonized?

They're just different titles of respect. Different people qualify for different titles, based on their piety and the investigation that the Vatican conducts.

reply to post by wildtimes


You won't really know whose a saint until resurrection day, the Bride doesn't make that call, Christ does. We can make guesses but that's between them and God.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

You won't really know whose a saint until resurrection day, the Bride doesn't make that call, Christ does. We can make guesses but that's between them and God.

Does that mean that, even if they were/are non-Catholic, they WILL be recognized by Christ as having lived up to the standards required?

Originally posted by wildtimes
What about the fantastic people who aren't Catholic, like Ghandi and Mother Teresa and the Dalai Lama?

Why would Ghandi or the Dalai Lama want a Catholic title?

Mother Teresa, being Catholic, is currently in the process of canonization -- she was beautified (given the title "Blessed") in 2003.

Does Christian "heaven" recognize them?

Sorry, I don't know what you mean.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by wildtimes
Also, are their "saints" recognized for their piety who are not Christians?
For example, Ghandi?

No, since "Saint", as recognized by the Roman Catholic Church, is a church title, you'd need to be a Catholic to be considered. One presumes that, for non-Catholics, their own religion would have something similar, and that most non-Catholics wouldn't want the title anyway.

Judeo-christians have saints too but as i said in my above post, we don't know who they are that's not our call to make and the Saints are more than likely those taken in the rapture event and share in the millenial reign with Christ.

reply to post by adjensen

Why would Ghandi or the Dalai Lama want a Catholic title?

More importantly, in my thinking, why would the Catholic church not recognize their contributions as being noble and saintly? I don't think there's much argument that they are especial people who represent the tenets of 'Christian', or even 'Catholic', sublimity.

I'm asking if they (people like Ghandi and the Dalai Lama) will be admitted to heaven just as much as the most pious Catholics or Judeo-Christian examples of how to live.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Judeo-christians have saints too but as i said in my above post, we don't know who they are that's not our call to make and the Saints are more than likely those taken in the rapture event and share in the millenial reign with Christ.

Okay, I understand...

so, do you believe that in heaven (we're assuming here that it is real and exists for those worthy of it), we will meet those people there?
Or, are there separate "heavens" for different "religious nobles"?

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by adjensen

 

Why would Ghandi or the Dalai Lama want a Catholic title?

More importantly, in my thinking, why would the Catholic church not recognize their contributions as being noble and saintly? I don't think there's much argument that they are especial people who represent the tenets of 'Christian', or even 'Catholic', sublimity.

I'm asking if they (people like Ghandi and the Dalai Lama) will be admitted to heaven just as much as the most pious Catholics or Judeo-Christian examples of how to live.

edit on 7-1-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

Why would you assume that the church not recognize anyone who isn't Catholic? They don't qualify for the title "Saint", as recognized by the church, but that doesn't mean that they aren't respected and honoured.

For the second part, the Catholic church differs from most Protestant churches in that it doesn't say that anyone is "not going to heaven", Catholic or not, because we see that as being up to God -- in his infinite mercy, he can save anyone he wants. From a practical standpoint, the Catechism teaches that only those who know the truth of Christ and intentionally reject him are outright condemned.

What did the Catholic Church think of Ghandi?

Rev. Leo A. Walsh, S.T.D. Answers:

Catholics liked him…a lot. And rightfully so since, even though he was a Hindu and not a Christian, he embodied much about what the Church stands for in her moral teaching. As the Second Vatican Council said in Nostra Aetate, the Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions:

“The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men.”

Ghandi’s use of non-violent civic disobedience was especially revered. (Source)