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Why would you assume that the church not recognize anyone who isn't Catholic?
Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by adjensen
Why would you assume that the church not recognize anyone who isn't Catholic?
I'm not assuming, adj, I'm asking.
Has the RC Church canonized anyone who was NOT a practicing Catholic, to your knowledge?
If sainthood is based on what you do while alive then yes, I think you can be considered a saint while still alive.
Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by wildtimes
Ever heard of St.Christopher?
Apparently certain governing bodies within the church give sainthoods to people that never even existed...
The existence of a martyr St. Christopher cannot be denied, as was sufficiently shown by the Jesuit Nicholas Serarius, in his treatise on litanies, "Litaneutici" (Cologne, 1609), and by Molanus in his history of sacred pictures, "De picturis et imaginibus sacris" (Louvain, 1570). (Source)
Originally posted by adjensen
Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by wildtimes
Ever heard of St.Christopher?
Apparently certain governing bodies within the church give sainthoods to people that never even existed...
Who says that he never existed?
Saint Christopher on Wikipedia. Perhaps you're assuming that, because there were goofy stories told about him, he didn't exist, which, of course, is an invalid assumption.
The existence of a martyr St. Christopher cannot be denied, as was sufficiently shown by the Jesuit Nicholas Serarius, in his treatise on litanies, "Litaneutici" (Cologne, 1609), and by Molanus in his history of sacred pictures, "De picturis et imaginibus sacris" (Louvain, 1570). (Source)
The Talmud[6] says that at least 36 Tzadikim Nistarim—anonymous tzadikim—are living among us in all times; they are anonymous, and it is for their sake alone that the world is not destroyed. The Talmud and the Kabbalah offer various ideas about the nature and role of these 36 tzadikim. In Jewish folklore they are called "lamedvovniks", from the gematria numerical value for 36. In Hasidism, with its social institution of the Tzadik in the central role of the community, the 36 may not necessarily be unknown, therefore. However, a Hasidic aphorism describes a known Rebbe Tzadik as being among the 36, as their true greatness could be concealed beyond the perception of their devoted followers.
Originally posted by Akragon
I say he never existed.... so do many others
Your link says his existence can not be denied because he was in pictures... which makes little to no sense
Originally posted by adjensen
Originally posted by Akragon
I say he never existed.... so do many others
Your link says his existence can not be denied because he was in pictures... which makes little to no sense
Actually, what it says is that historians went back to see if there was a real person behind these ridiculous legends and found that there was. They didn't validate the legends, just said that there really was a martyr recognized by the church at that time. If you're basing your argument that he didn't exist because of the legends, that's an invalid statement -- the best you can say is that the legends are of a person who didn't exist, which I would agree with.
A martyr, probably of the third century. Although St. Christopher is one of the most popular saints in the East and in the West, almost nothing certain is known about his life or death.
The legend says: A heathen king (in Canaan or Arabia), through the prayers of his wife to the Blessed Virgin, had a son, whom he called Offerus (Offro, Adokimus, or Reprebus) and dedicated to the gods Machmet and Apollo. Acquiring in time extraordinary size and strength, Offerus resolved to serve only the strongest and the bravest. He bound himself successively to a mighty king and to Satan, but he found both lacking in courage, the former dreading even the name of the devil, and the latter frightened by the sight of a cross at the roadside.
For a time his search for a new master was in vain, but at last he found a hermit (Babylas?) who told him to offer his allegiance to Christ, instructed him in the Faith, and baptized him. Christopher, as he was now called, would not promise to do any fasting or praying, but willingly accepted the task of carrying people, for God's sake, across a raging stream. One day he was carrying a child who continually grew heavier, so that it seemed to him as if he had the whole world on his shoulders. The child, on inquiry, made himself known as the Creator and Redeemer of the world. To prove his statement the child ordered Christopher to fix his staff in the ground. The next morning it had grown into a palm-tree bearing fruit. The miracle converted many. This excited the rage of the king (prefect) of that region (Dagnus of Samos in Lycia?). Christopher was put into prison and, after many cruel torments, beheaded.
Originally posted by Akragon
Originally posted by adjensen
Originally posted by Akragon
I say he never existed.... so do many others
Your link says his existence can not be denied because he was in pictures... which makes little to no sense
Actually, what it says is that historians went back to see if there was a real person behind these ridiculous legends and found that there was. They didn't validate the legends, just said that there really was a martyr recognized by the church at that time. If you're basing your argument that he didn't exist because of the legends, that's an invalid statement -- the best you can say is that the legends are of a person who didn't exist, which I would agree with.
actually your link doesn't say that at all...
A martyr, probably of the third century. Although St. Christopher is one of the most popular saints in the East and in the West, almost nothing certain is known about his life or death.
The legend of Saint Christopher records two important historical facts that identify him with the historical Saint Menas. The first is that the Greek and Latin legends of Saint Christopher identify him as belonging to the Third Valerian Cohort of the Marmantae (Latin: Cohors tertia Valeria, at Marmantarum), a military unit of Northern Africa of Marmarica (between modern day Libya and Egypt), recruited by none other than the Emperor Diocletian.
The second is that Saint Christopher was martyred in Antioch…The martyrdom of Saint Menas corresponds to the details of the legend of Saint Christopher. The theory that identifies the two saints as one and the same concludes that the name “Christopher” meaning “Christ-bearer” was a title given to the name of the valiant Menas who died in Antioch. Since, he was not a native of that land, his name was not known and so he was simply revered by his generic title: “Christophoros” or “Christ-Bearer.” Saint Menas happens to be the patron of travelers in the Coptic tradition, which further supports an association with Saint Christopher who is the patron of travelers in the Greek and Latin traditions. (Source)
Note that it doesn't say "a fictitious martyr" -- they're citing it as through he was a real person, so, yes, my link does say that.
The second is that Saint Christopher was martyred in Antioch…The martyrdom of Saint Menas corresponds to the details of the legend of Saint Christopher.
At any rate, St. Christopher has been "demoted" by having his feast day removed from the calendar, probably due to killjoys like you complaining, lol
Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
You won't really know whose a saint until resurrection day, the Bride doesn't make that call, Christ does. We can make guesses but that's between them and God.
Does that mean that, even if they were/are non-Catholic, they WILL be recognized by Christ as having lived up to the standards required?
(Qur'an 2:154)And say not of those who are slain in the way of God: "They are dead." Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not.
"(And it was said unto his son) 0' John! Hold fast the scripture. And We gave him wisdom when he was a child! And compassion from Our presence and punity, and he was devout. And dutiful towards his parents. And he was not arrogant, rebellious. Peace on him the day he was born and the day he dies and the day he shall be raised alive.'' (Qur'an-19: 12-15)
Originally posted by wildtimes
Last night I dreamed I met someone - who was living, contemporaneous with myself - and was introduced to me as a "saint."
Is this possible, do you guys think?
Are there really "saints" who already know they are, or have been acknowledged as "saints"?
Do "martyrs" achieve "sainthood"?
We all know the phrase "he's a regular saint!" when speaking about someone who is very, very "good."
Are "martyrs" and "saints" purely Christian constructs?
Why is Jesus not called a "saint"?
Just my rambling thoughts. Anyone else have ideas about this?
edit on 7-1-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)