reply to post by charles1952
Well there are many organisations for communism, they don't create the definition of the term and they all have different ideas as how to implement
communism.
But the final goal of all true communist organizations is worker ownership of the means of production. Otherwise known as free-association.
A free association of producers, free from the restraints of private ownership of the means to produce.
So if an organization doesn't support worker ownership, it isn't communist. But you have to be careful, don't trust communist "parties" and
such, the mainstream of politix, they lie.
Communism doesn't have to be anything to do with government. Anarchism is communist.
Why is it that people with no knowledge of communism are so against it?, page 4
reply posted on 2-1-2013 @ 11:06 PM by ANOK
Originally posted by timetothink
reply to post by ANOK
I quoted Lenin's words because the OP was based on him.
They all stink anyway.
Yes all politicians stink, but communism and socialism were movements of the people long before left wing terms were appropriated by governments in order to control dissent.
"As Socialism in general, Anarchism was born among the people; and it will continue to be full of life and creative power only as long as it remains a thing of the people." From the book 'Modern Science and Anarchism' p.5, Peter Kropotkin, 1908
edit on 1/2/2013 by ANOK because: (no reason given)
reply posted on 2-1-2013 @ 11:40 PM by charles1952
reply to post by ANOK
Dear ANOK,
Thank you very much for your kind and helpful reply. Clearly, this is my opportunity to learn. Mind a few questions?
Imagine a factory that makes cookware, pots and pans. The factory has 100 workers. The factory, the ground it's on, it's supply of raw materials and finished products, is worth $100 million. Can a worker say "I'm tired of this, I'm going to Cuba to live out my life where it's warm?" Can he draw $1 million as his share? If 51 workers thinks it's a good idea, can they sell the whole factory and take off, or does it take a unanimous vote?
Do the workers get paid in dollars spendable anywhere or do they receive tickets good for food, etc.? Can a worker start up his own one-man business?
Can the government impose any regulations and rules on the factory? Can they require a certain level of production? Do the workers get paid for showing up? Paid for the amount of hours they put in? Or perhaps, a percentage of the sales? Are there taxes? Do they sell ther pots and pans or are they transferred to a workers' collective to be drawn on as needed?
Sorry for all the questions, but I have even more and wanted to stop before you were swamped.
With respect,
Charles1952
Dear ANOK,
Thank you very much for your kind and helpful reply. Clearly, this is my opportunity to learn. Mind a few questions?
But the final goal of all true communist organizations is worker ownership of the means of production. Otherwise known as free-association.
A free association of producers, free from the restraints of private ownership of the means to produce.
Communism doesn't have to be anything to do with government.
Imagine a factory that makes cookware, pots and pans. The factory has 100 workers. The factory, the ground it's on, it's supply of raw materials and finished products, is worth $100 million. Can a worker say "I'm tired of this, I'm going to Cuba to live out my life where it's warm?" Can he draw $1 million as his share? If 51 workers thinks it's a good idea, can they sell the whole factory and take off, or does it take a unanimous vote?
Do the workers get paid in dollars spendable anywhere or do they receive tickets good for food, etc.? Can a worker start up his own one-man business?
Can the government impose any regulations and rules on the factory? Can they require a certain level of production? Do the workers get paid for showing up? Paid for the amount of hours they put in? Or perhaps, a percentage of the sales? Are there taxes? Do they sell ther pots and pans or are they transferred to a workers' collective to be drawn on as needed?
Sorry for all the questions, but I have even more and wanted to stop before you were swamped.
With respect,
Charles1952
reply posted on 3-1-2013 @ 01:37 AM by ANOK
reply to post by sconner755
We are not discussing "communist" countries, we discussing the economic system of communism.
There are no countries with communist economies, only governments who call themselves communist.
Communism isn't just a name, it's an economic system, and if that economic system is not in place then the economy is not communist, no matter what the government calls itself.
For example would you call the system they had in East Germany democratic? Anyone who knows would say no it wasn't. Yet the nation called itself the German Democratic Republic, DDR.
Governments lie, you all know that, yet when it comes to "communism" all of a sudden the governments are telling the truth, even the despotic Russians and Chinese.
We are not discussing "communist" countries, we discussing the economic system of communism.
There are no countries with communist economies, only governments who call themselves communist.
Communism isn't just a name, it's an economic system, and if that economic system is not in place then the economy is not communist, no matter what the government calls itself.
For example would you call the system they had in East Germany democratic? Anyone who knows would say no it wasn't. Yet the nation called itself the German Democratic Republic, DDR.
Governments lie, you all know that, yet when it comes to "communism" all of a sudden the governments are telling the truth, even the despotic Russians and Chinese.
edit on 1/3/2013 by ANOK because: (no reason given)
reply posted on 3-1-2013 @ 02:14 AM by zedVSzardoz
reply to post by NysgjerrigDame
It is a complete failure since it promotes a sense of utopia when in reality people need incentives in a society. Those incentives are what keep people trying to do better and become more. Without them, a society stagnates as people seek the only compensation offered (less effort needed for a minimum compensation)
Communism has killed MILLIONS of people in its short history. We can say that Marxists communism is an advocate of violent revolution as a preferable means to societal change. It promotes an "anything goes" philosophy that it justifies as legitimate in establishing a "perfect" utopian society. This has never been the case because when all opposition was removed, the force and strength of the state is then turned on the people so the state can keep its high level of control and interference in peoples lives. (Fascism).
Communism like socialism leads to an ever growing government that with every passing moment has greater public expenditure with less return in public benefits. As government spending on itself increases, the people get less of their own resources for their own existence and less is invested in them.
In the end the many types of communism and any form of socialism are always advocated by the pulling of heart strings so as to distort facts and paint a picture that those who only want power can use to get it. It is always a "morally" fueled argument, an emotionally charged mentality, and a rabid sense of hysteria that advocates what is not based in logic, fact, and practice.
Would it be nice? Sure. I would also like to be He-man and date She-ra....but nice and ideal have no place in the real world where people´s lives hang in the balance as do their dinner tables and wallets that depend on a stable system that rewards their efforts with just compensation, NOT a pat on the back for their solidarity.
You mentioned Spain? They had a Marxist insurgency that stole the elections and made the republic which sparked the controversy that led to the coup by Franco. The republic talked a nice game but did nothing while in power to address the issues the people were facing. Then during the civil war that followed the communists employed criminals they hired from captured prisons or other hell holes to go on terror campaigns against civilian opposition, raping and pillaging like barbaric devils. The Marxists communists were known as the red terror for their tactics.
It is a fairy tale that selfish and often lazy people advocate out of spite or over emotional baggage they do not address personally so they externalize it in their political ideology. It has had no success anywhere and all the defense of it can say is that it failed for its implementation in less than perfect purity of the concept. They ignore the many dictatorships that it has made and the many MILLIONS of people that died in direct consequence of it.
For any lover of freedom and leftist ideals to advocate it is contradictory and shows how little they do not understand it as well as how little of history they have read outside of the books that sell them communism itself.
MY family saw first hand what the communists did in Spain. They were enemies of the people and out for their own criminal power grab at all costs and over all the dead and tortured bodies necessary to get it.
My great uncle fought for Castro in Cuba. When the war was over they made him cut sugar cane in the sun for years as slave labor. If he thought to protest this, ask for a transfer, or tried to do anything but cut sugar cane like a slave in horrible conditions, he would have been beaten or worse. My grandmother in Cuba almost got arrested and would have been killed for having a couple steaks that were illegal. I could tell you all the stories that I have heard, but from a Spaniard whose family was brutalized by the communists, and a Cuban descendant whose family fought FOR communism at one point only to be made into a slave and for his family to live in abject poverty and fear, I can safely say I don't like communism.
What I find amusing is that the proponents of communism or even socialism cant believe that some one wouldn't like the idea of it. That if we don't agree we MUST be ignorant of it or don't understand it. It is funny how little they know of it beyond what limited books they have memorized about it. It is beyond them that some one can completely understand how it works and NOT support it, so they call us ignorant, dumb, or evil.
They are dirty radicals that would jeopardize every ones well being, safety and happiness for childish and reckless ideas and then walk away like cowards as they have always done when communism showed its teeth and its true intentions.
It is a complete failure since it promotes a sense of utopia when in reality people need incentives in a society. Those incentives are what keep people trying to do better and become more. Without them, a society stagnates as people seek the only compensation offered (less effort needed for a minimum compensation)
Communism has killed MILLIONS of people in its short history. We can say that Marxists communism is an advocate of violent revolution as a preferable means to societal change. It promotes an "anything goes" philosophy that it justifies as legitimate in establishing a "perfect" utopian society. This has never been the case because when all opposition was removed, the force and strength of the state is then turned on the people so the state can keep its high level of control and interference in peoples lives. (Fascism).
Communism like socialism leads to an ever growing government that with every passing moment has greater public expenditure with less return in public benefits. As government spending on itself increases, the people get less of their own resources for their own existence and less is invested in them.
In the end the many types of communism and any form of socialism are always advocated by the pulling of heart strings so as to distort facts and paint a picture that those who only want power can use to get it. It is always a "morally" fueled argument, an emotionally charged mentality, and a rabid sense of hysteria that advocates what is not based in logic, fact, and practice.
Would it be nice? Sure. I would also like to be He-man and date She-ra....but nice and ideal have no place in the real world where people´s lives hang in the balance as do their dinner tables and wallets that depend on a stable system that rewards their efforts with just compensation, NOT a pat on the back for their solidarity.
You mentioned Spain? They had a Marxist insurgency that stole the elections and made the republic which sparked the controversy that led to the coup by Franco. The republic talked a nice game but did nothing while in power to address the issues the people were facing. Then during the civil war that followed the communists employed criminals they hired from captured prisons or other hell holes to go on terror campaigns against civilian opposition, raping and pillaging like barbaric devils. The Marxists communists were known as the red terror for their tactics.
It is a fairy tale that selfish and often lazy people advocate out of spite or over emotional baggage they do not address personally so they externalize it in their political ideology. It has had no success anywhere and all the defense of it can say is that it failed for its implementation in less than perfect purity of the concept. They ignore the many dictatorships that it has made and the many MILLIONS of people that died in direct consequence of it.
For any lover of freedom and leftist ideals to advocate it is contradictory and shows how little they do not understand it as well as how little of history they have read outside of the books that sell them communism itself.
MY family saw first hand what the communists did in Spain. They were enemies of the people and out for their own criminal power grab at all costs and over all the dead and tortured bodies necessary to get it.
My great uncle fought for Castro in Cuba. When the war was over they made him cut sugar cane in the sun for years as slave labor. If he thought to protest this, ask for a transfer, or tried to do anything but cut sugar cane like a slave in horrible conditions, he would have been beaten or worse. My grandmother in Cuba almost got arrested and would have been killed for having a couple steaks that were illegal. I could tell you all the stories that I have heard, but from a Spaniard whose family was brutalized by the communists, and a Cuban descendant whose family fought FOR communism at one point only to be made into a slave and for his family to live in abject poverty and fear, I can safely say I don't like communism.
What I find amusing is that the proponents of communism or even socialism cant believe that some one wouldn't like the idea of it. That if we don't agree we MUST be ignorant of it or don't understand it. It is funny how little they know of it beyond what limited books they have memorized about it. It is beyond them that some one can completely understand how it works and NOT support it, so they call us ignorant, dumb, or evil.
They are dirty radicals that would jeopardize every ones well being, safety and happiness for childish and reckless ideas and then walk away like cowards as they have always done when communism showed its teeth and its true intentions.
edit on 3-1-2013 by zedVSzardoz because: (no reason given)
reply posted on 3-1-2013 @ 02:21 AM by ANOK
Originally posted by zedVSzardoz
It is a complete failure since it promotes a sense of utopia
Hmm that's not true either.
There was a utopian form of socialism that was pre-capitalism, people like Robert Owen, the farther of the cooperative movement.
But that died out by 1840 and replaced by scientific socialism.
Socialism is not a utopia, it is simply workers owning the means to produce, the only way people will be truly liberated. It will not be without it's problems like any economic system.
Scientific socialism refers to a method for understanding and predicting social, economic and material phenomena by examining their historical trends through the use of the scientific method in order to derive probable outcomes and probable future developments. It is in contrast to what later socialists referred to as "utopian socialism"; a method based on establishing seemingly rational propositions for organizing society and convincing others of their rationality and/or desirability. It also contrasts with classical liberal notions of natural law, which are grounded in metaphysical notions of morality rather than a dynamic materialist or physicalist conception of the world. [2]
en.wikipedia.org...-2
edit on 1/3/2013 by ANOK because: (no reason given)
reply posted on 3-1-2013 @ 02:25 AM by zedVSzardoz
reply to post by ANOK
Communism promises a world of happy smiling workers where no social injustice or tensions can exist.
Hence I say utopia.
Socialism too to a degree. !"oh the workers own their own production so they would not screw over each other" and "its capitalism that makes people do bad things out of greed", "that cant exist in a workers paradise"....
FAKE UTOPIA...
Liberated? From what? Will they then get to decide how government is operated? NO, they just get an illusion of control over their work....The only way?.....how about owning your own business and being able to tell the government to go to hell.....pick up your crap and leave, or pay for your won security in life. That is not a way, no.
It is emotional dribble based on high strung passions that prey on our sense of humanity.
BS.
You can have your personal ideals and sense of morality, but leave society to try for stability and prosperity.
Communism promises a world of happy smiling workers where no social injustice or tensions can exist.
Hence I say utopia.
Socialism too to a degree. !"oh the workers own their own production so they would not screw over each other" and "its capitalism that makes people do bad things out of greed", "that cant exist in a workers paradise"....
FAKE UTOPIA...
the only way people will be truly liberated.
Liberated? From what? Will they then get to decide how government is operated? NO, they just get an illusion of control over their work....The only way?.....how about owning your own business and being able to tell the government to go to hell.....pick up your crap and leave, or pay for your won security in life. That is not a way, no.
It is emotional dribble based on high strung passions that prey on our sense of humanity.
BS.
You can have your personal ideals and sense of morality, but leave society to try for stability and prosperity.
edit on 3-1-2013 by
zedVSzardoz because: (no reason given)
reply posted on 3-1-2013 @ 02:34 AM by ANOK
Originally posted by zedVSzardoz
reply to post by ANOK
Communism promises a world of happy smiling workers where no social injustice or tensions can exist.
Hence I say utopia.
Actually no it doesn't. Please show me where it says that. Anybody thinking that is rather naive.
Socialism doesn't promise anything. It's just a fact that worker ownership works better than private ownership in creating equality and providing for communities.
It's only it's distractors that want to paint it like some magical place where no one is unhappy and we all live happily ever after, making socialism appear impossible. We should NEVER be happy with any system, we should always be striving to improve our lives. It doesn't end at socialism.
But having said that shouldn't we be striving for utopia, like we strive for perfection, even though we know it can never be reached? If you don't reach for the highest high then you'll never even reach mediocre.
Also if socialism is utopia then you must agree Russia was not socialist? So many contradicting arguments against socialism.
Also Castro was not a communist lol, he did that to piss off the Americans for the embargo and the refusal to invest in their corn crop. The Russians stepped in and took the deal. Also what came before Castro was far worse, the Batista regime, typically you've just bought into the propaganda and spin. Cubas economic problems are because of the American embargo, not because of communism.
It's so easy to fall for the propaganda of blaming communism, you have to look a little deeper.
edit on 1/3/2013 by ANOK because: (no reason given)
reply posted on 3-1-2013 @ 02:38 AM by steppenwolf86
reply to post by NysgjerrigDame
Some great memories here in Poland of communism. My favorite saying? As long as they pretend to pay us, we will pretend to work.(you could not buy much and were not paid in internationally traded currency).
In highschool I was a huge believer in communism, but then I came to live here, and I realized the idea will always be abused. Keep dreaming, but if you travel to a former Warsaw pact country you will understand why Marx has such a reputation.
Some great memories here in Poland of communism. My favorite saying? As long as they pretend to pay us, we will pretend to work.(you could not buy much and were not paid in internationally traded currency).
In highschool I was a huge believer in communism, but then I came to live here, and I realized the idea will always be abused. Keep dreaming, but if you travel to a former Warsaw pact country you will understand why Marx has such a reputation.
reply posted on 3-1-2013 @ 02:39 AM by zedVSzardoz
reply to post by ANOK
you just did promise something....
There is nothing contradicting. I said they BOTH promise utopias. I only mentioned socialism since you threw that in here, though I feel similarly about it. I was talking about Communism. You are trying to construct an ad hominem by mixing up my arguments on purpose. You are a vehement defender of socialism and portray it as the light of the world. You are a tad bit unbalanced when it comes to this subject.
indeed.
Actually no it doesn't. Please show me where it says that. Anybody thinking that is rather naive.
Socialism doesn't promise anything. It's just a fact that worker ownership works
you just did promise something....
better than private ownership in creating equality and providing for communities.
There is nothing contradicting. I said they BOTH promise utopias. I only mentioned socialism since you threw that in here, though I feel similarly about it. I was talking about Communism. You are trying to construct an ad hominem by mixing up my arguments on purpose. You are a vehement defender of socialism and portray it as the light of the world. You are a tad bit unbalanced when it comes to this subject.
It's so easy to fall for the propaganda
indeed.
edit on 3-1-2013 by zedVSzardoz because: (no reason given)
Bill Clinton Is Right: The Economy Really Does Do Better Under Democrats
Posted 4 days ago with 46 member flags
Posted 4 days ago with 46 member flags
2009 news report proves paul ryan was correct about plant closure.
Posted 12 days ago with 4 member flags
Posted 12 days ago with 4 member flags
Newest topics, updated in real-time:
David Suzuki speaks out against genetically modified food..Great Video
Fragile Earth: 41 minutes ago
Fragile Earth: 41 minutes ago
Newest topics getting flags, in real-time:
ATS Live:161:Trees,Ghosts,Phantom 'Copters,Pshop,Teaching,Jail,Violence,MajorTom,Animals,
ATS Live: 14 hours ago, 29 flags
ATS Live: 14 hours ago, 29 flags
Student Rejected for Diversity Post Because He is "White"
Breaking Alternative News: 13 hours ago, 20 flags
Breaking Alternative News: 13 hours ago, 20 flags
NASA finds portals near earth and have discovered how to find them.
Science & Technology: 8 hours ago, 18 flags
Science & Technology: 8 hours ago, 18 flags
A very important message from a person who is from the Brotherhood of the snake!
ATS Skunk Works: 10 hours ago, 15 flags
ATS Skunk Works: 10 hours ago, 15 flags
New study reveals traces of unknown human ancestor
Ancient & Lost Civilizations: 7 hours ago, 12 flags
Ancient & Lost Civilizations: 7 hours ago, 12 flags
Is reality real? Simulated Universe and Holographic Reality (VIDEO)
Science & Technology: 7 hours ago, 11 flags
Science & Technology: 7 hours ago, 11 flags
Newest topics getting replies, in real-time:
Student Rejected for Diversity Post Because He is "White"
Breaking Alternative News: 13 hours ago, 89 replies
Breaking Alternative News: 13 hours ago, 89 replies
The Abundance of NASA's STS Mission Footage is the Most Compelling Evidence UFOs Exist
Aliens and UFOs: 13 hours ago, 47 replies
Aliens and UFOs: 13 hours ago, 47 replies
A very important message from a person who is from the Brotherhood of the snake!
ATS Skunk Works: 10 hours ago, 31 replies
ATS Skunk Works: 10 hours ago, 31 replies
ATS Live North America is broadcasting now.
Today's Show: ATS Live:161:Trees,Ghosts,Phantom 'Copters,Pshop,Teaching,Jail,Violence,MajorTom,Animals,
Today's Show: ATS Live:161:Trees,Ghosts,Phantom 'Copters,Pshop,Teaching,Jail,Violence,MajorTom,Animals,
The Above Top Secret Web sites are a
wholly owned social content community of
The Above Network, LLC.
This content community relies on
user-generated content from our member contributors.
The opinions of our members are not those of site ownership
who maintains strict editorial agnosticism and simply provides
a collaborative venue for free expression.
ATS Server: www3.theabovenetwork.com
Header data: 0.003 seconds
Page processed in: 0.299 seconds
wholly owned social content community of
The Above Network, LLC.
This content community relies on
user-generated content from our member contributors.
The opinions of our members are not those of site ownership
who maintains strict editorial agnosticism and simply provides
a collaborative venue for free expression.
ATS Server: www3.theabovenetwork.com
Header data: 0.003 seconds
Page processed in: 0.299 seconds
