WAR: U.K. PM Announces Plans for ID Cards

The British government has announced plans for a biometric national identity card. Not required for UK citizens since after World War II, the cards, announced by - Prime Minister Tony Blair, are being touted as a way of fighting terrorism.



Several countries in Europe already have them including Belgium and Germany. Civil rights advocates have decried the cards as an attack on personal liberty. The cards are planed for a voluntary release in 2007 with them being mandated five years after that

Which personal libertys exactly are being infringed here?
The Right to not have to have an ID card?

People claim to want protection from terrorists and then merrily shoot down every idea the government thinks up.

Let this idea, even for five seconds, percolate in your head: The government is trying to protect you.



Hmm.. OTOH, mandatory in five years from 2007?
What year is that?
2012?

I'm in UK and had an id card when I was in the forces. It never caused me any problems to have the card, but there were a lot of benefits.

I can't see why most British people would have any objections to an id card. There are so many situations we need to prove our identities these days (applying for credit, buying a house, dealing with solictors), a national id would fit the bill nicely. We all have id in some shape or form, so what's wrong with one that's nationally recognised? If it helps to make terrorism more difficult, so much the better!

Originally posted by quango
Which personal libertys exactly are being infringed here?
The Right to not have to have an ID card?

People claim to want protection from terrorists and then merrily shoot down every idea the government thinks up.

Let this idea, even for five seconds, percolate in your head: The government is trying to protect you.



Hmm.. OTOH, mandatory in five years from 2007?
What year is that?
2012?

And in what way does a national ID card protect us from "terrorists"?
The reason it infringes on civil rights, is one you are micromanaged by the government, as in everything you do, what you buy, where you go, everything is under tabs. Thus forms a national database, under the government, of all the citizens in UK, not just your name, date and birth, but an entire history of your life from the issue of the ID card.

Thus you are presented with a very dangerous and real abuse scenorio under a dictorial and corrupt government, everything about you can be changed in one edit, you can be turned into someone you're not(a terrorist) you can be erased from records, or convicted of things you did not even do.

If you don't think it is against your civil rights for your privacy to be completely taken away, and to be micromanaged by an all powerful government, then either you are a drone, you do not care about rights, or need a serious reality check.

A wise man once said; if you exchange your freedom for security, then you will lose both freedom and security. Throughout history, government that have attained supreme power, have abused it(heard of absolute power corrupts) and they have done it, exactly like what the current government is doing, promising people security in exchange for their freedom, under an imagined or real threat. Hiter was one of them, so was the Roman empire. You would be really foolish to repeat the same mistakes.

This does little or nothing for terrorists, but it sure does a lot to hurt the people they claim to be protecting.

[edit on 26-10-2004 by Indigo_Child]

Originally posted by iwouldificould
I'm in UK and had an id card when I was in the forces. It never caused me any problems to have the card, but there were a lot of benefits.

I can't see why most British people would have any objections to an id card. There are so many situations we need to prove our identities these days (applying for credit, buying a house, dealing with solictors), a national id would fit the bill nicely. We all have id in some shape or form, so what's wrong with one that's nationally recognised? If it helps to make terrorism more difficult, so much the better!

What's different is - the previous systems were more compartmentalized, there were systems of checks and balances, and there was less government intervention. It was more of a civilian run system, a democratic system. What a national ID card does, along with bills like civil contingencies, is give the government absolute power. This is no different than a dictatorship. That's what's wrong with it.

If they tell you it's to fight terrorists, ask yourself, how is it going to be used to fight terrorists.

[edit on 26-10-2004 by Indigo_Child]

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
The reason it infringes on civil rights, is one you are micromanaged by the government, as in everything you do, what you buy, where you go, everything is under tabs. Thus forms a national database, under the government, of all the citizens in UK, not just your name, date and birth, but an entire history of your life from the issue of the ID card.

This already exists. It's called credit card records. Library records. Phone records. Utility bills. School records. Umm. Etc?

Thus you are presented with a very dangerous and real abuse scenorio under a dictorial and corrupt government, everything about you can be changed in one edit, you can be turned into someone you're not(a terrorist) you can be erased from records, or convicted of things you did not even do.

The government in your hypothethical could do this just as easily WITHOUT national ID cards, if they are that corrupt and evil.

If you don't think it is against your civil rights for your privacy to be completely taken away, and to be micromanaged by an all powerful government, then either you are a drone, you do not care about rights, or need a serious reality check.

What privacy are we talking about?
Did not the retail clerk see you buy that handbag? Did that camera at the ATM not record you taking out $40 from your account? Do the utility companies not know where you live and how much you consume? Does your employer not present all your personal info to the taxman? Does your credit card not record every purchase you make, wherever you go, whatever the item? Is not the type of car you drive on file? Your license plate? Is your every internet click not already trackable and retrievable? Your every phone call, both ingoing and outgoing, logged?

A wise man once said; if you exchange your freedom for security, then you will lose both freedom and security.

Well then he'd certainly be appalled at the state of things now, wouldn't he?

Look, I'm not FOR identification cards. I'm just not AGAINST them either.
It's a card. My wallet is already full of them. If it helps uproot terrorists - awesome. If it doesn't - well, it doesn't.

As for privacy - not only is it not a right once you leave your house and interact in society - it long ago ceased to exist.

I do not see how this will protect us in any way. In situations where proof of identity are needed you use your passport and driving lisence, we already have ample ID.

Apart from that, I do not feel there is a real terrorist threat here.

This already exists. It's called credit card records. Library records. Phone records. Utility bills. School records. Umm. Etc?

As I said to the other guy, it is compartmentalized, and more civilian run. There are no absolute records in a national government database with every conceivable data on citizens(not that is legal anyway) In addition to this, a national ID card, will also contain data on:

1. Where you go in the day
2. Which contacts you keep
3. What you do on a day-to-day basis
4. What you buy

The government in your hypothethical could do this just as easily WITHOUT national ID cards, if they are that corrupt and evil.

In the current system(or past system) the government would have been required to go through a system to review citizen records, produce a motive with evidence, and thus every amendment or review would be known by the relavant civilian parties. As Bush said defending the patriot act in the presidential debate; in the previous system, it was much more difficult for the FBI or law enforcers to do so.

By the way, the above is not a hypothetical. The present state of government is a quasi-democracy and quasi-dictatorship. As for "corrupt" the ganging up on weaker countries.

What privacy are we talking about?
Did not the retail clerk see you buy that handbag? Did that camera at the ATM not record you taking out $40 from your account? Do the utility companies not know where you live and how much you consume? Does your employer not present all your personal info to the taxman? Does your credit card not record every purchase you make, wherever you go, whatever the item? Is not the type of car you drive on file? Your license plate? Is your every internet click not already trackable and retrievable? Your every phone call, both ingoing and outgoing, logged?

See 2. However the above cannot be used to support anti-privacy, the above is part of the problem. UK has the most CCTV cameras of anywhere in the world. You are constantly being watched.

Well then he'd certainly be appalled at the state of things now, wouldn't he?

Yes, he would. He would smile a knowing smile.

Look, I'm not FOR identification cards. I'm just not AGAINST them either.
It's a card. My wallet is already full of them. If it helps uproot terrorists - awesome. If it doesn't - well, it doesn't.

Again as I said in 2. It is not the same. This allows one single entity to micromanage you. There are no checks and balances, they went with the civil contingencies bill, our very own patriot act.

Oh, and do you know how this helps fight terrorists?

As for privacy - not only is it not a right once you leave your house and interact in society - it long ago ceased to exist.

Well if you don't value your privacy, does not mean some don't. The right of freedom is an inalienable right to we are all entitled too. No, we have not lost our privacy completely, nor our other civilian rights, but I agree, we have suffered a lot in terms of our rights, but we sure will lose them completely if we allow the government's final assault; to micromanage us with biometrics and implanted microchips.

This is not the Borg. We are free individuals living in a collective. Why don't you see this is clearly wrong for you, me and other citizen of the world?
In addition, have you not noticed the polarization in the world, the same laws being passed in various countries. Does that not make you question anything? Do you really want to be a drone of a borg like empire?

Do not accept a system that poses a threat to your life and your freedom. Do not just blindly accept everything without question, and do not regurgitate what they are saying witout question. Question everything, demand solid exaplanations for why they require it, demand a safe beuractatic system with checks and balances.

Sorry, I just don't want to go back to the times of the Nazi's, but sadly, that decision is not in my hands, it's in the hands of people like you.

[edit on 26-10-2004 by Indigo_Child]

Your papers please!

Another problem with ID cards is that government agencies make major mistakes, e.g.
A study by the Cato Institute in 1995 showed that large databases owned by the federal government had high error rates: 5 to 20 per cent for the Social Security Administration, 28 per cent for the INS, 10 to 20 per cent for the IRS. The INS database, routinely had a person�s first and last names in the wrong order, and miss-spellings were rampant.
Putting anything under the control of the government, especially all your personal info, is like playing Russian roulette with a scud missile.
And the bigger government gets (i.e. one world gov.) the more chance there is of major mistakes.
You ever see that movie where the guy wakes up to find he doesn�t exist in any database anymore. No bank account, no credit cards, no job etc�
A simple mistake and you�re history�or not.

In addition to this, a national ID card, will also contain data on:

1. Where you go in the day
2. Which contacts you keep
3. What you do on a day-to-day basis
4. What you buy

Ok number 1 only if you swipe your card everywhere you go which would mean card readers installed everywhere, exceptionally unlikely. Number 2 : linked to data from number 1 with a computer analysis assessing times to specifially determine likely contacts in a group....for millions of people several hundered times a day hmmm I think a nice beefy computer with software not yet possible will be needed. Number 3: how on earth will a card record what I do, where possibly (number1) what I do no way. Number 4: not unless we are cashless and the ID card replaces a bank card. Anyway you can do number 4 now with a bank card now so wake up and wise up.

The problem is not an ID card but the access to the data related to it.

A national ID card could result in more freedom and less intrusive government behaviour if applied correctly ! First of all all your current trackable items can be consolidated : bills, bank cards, driving licence etc. Second, since any data collected is about you then you should be able to view that data. Everybody should protest, lobby, shout , scream , complain or whatever to make sure that that happens. There is no reason for it not to happen and you can turn the governments argument for an ID card against itself: "If you have nothing to hide and are behaving within the law then I can view my own information". Since this data will log every time the police question you, for example, then it also acts as an official record of harrassment !

As for mistakes about data then yet again the solution is for individuals to be able to access their own information.

Ok number 1 only if you swipe your card everywhere you go which would mean card readers installed everywhere, exceptionally unlikely. Number 2 : linked to data from number 1 with a computer analysis assessing times to specifially determine likely contacts in a group....for millions of people several hundered times a day hmmm I think a nice beefy computer with software not yet possible will be needed. Number 3: how on earth will a card record what I do, where possibly (number1) what I do no way. Number 4: not unless we are cashless and the ID card replaces a bank card. Anyway you can do number 4 now with a bank card now so wake up and wise up.

How do you think a card system is going to work lol Of course there will be card readers everywhere. There is a biometric chip in it for a reason. So wise up, backatya.

Also, no reason to be skeptical about computer logistics, we have computers that are able to deal with the information of millions/billions. Have you heard of something called the internet? They have it on computers now.

A national ID card could result in more freedom and less intrusive government behaviour if applied correctly !

Do not confuse the laziness of producing a driving liscence, or a credit card, or filling out forms for certain things, and the comfort of having a single national identity card, with freedom. No one said we had the right to be lazy.

There is no reason for it not to happen and you can turn the governments argument for an ID card against itself: "If you have nothing to hide and are behaving within the law then I can view my own information". Since this data will log every time the police question you, for example, then it also acts as an official record of harrassment !

Next time you tell someone to wake up, check if you are awake yourself. The whole problem with a national ID card is the potential for it to be misused. You basically said "if im a good boy, I got nothing to fear" Well, it does not always work like that. That is the whole point of the argument AGAINST IT. Pay attention.

[edit on 26-10-2004 by Indigo_Child]

you can turn the governments argument for an ID card against itself: "If you have nothing to hide and are behaving within the law then I can view my own information".

That's so easy to say and so difficult to do. Who is going to listen to your turn-around of the argument? Certainly not "the government". What and who do you think "the government" is? Do you think it's a big benevolent daddy or mommy in the sky? When were you born? Have you ever read any history? When you question "the government's" right to do something that you don't like, it will generate yet another entry in your record. If you do that often enough you'll become a subversive. If you do it one time too many you'll become just another statistic.

This would have been hog heaven for Herbert Hoover!

We have ID cards in Portugal and not even after the revolution of 1974, when all people had great ideas of changing everything from the old times, they stop the need for all citizens to have an ID card.

The card is a very simple one, just a photo, a signature and a finger print on one face of the card. The other face has an unique number, the date the card was issued, the place where the card was issued, the full name of the person, the name of both parents, the place of birth, the place where he lives, the birthday, the marital status, the height of the person and the expiry date of the card.

The good thing about it is that the people who do not have a drivers license or a passport, as I, can be easily identified by the authorities, in case it is needed, I was never asked for the ID card from the authorities, and I have one for more or less 30 years.
If I want to go to other EU country, I only have to prove that I am from an EU country, so I use the ID card.

If we are talking about ID cards like smart cards, that can register lots of information, then the situation is different, but I still think that to monitor all citizens with a card, the hardware needed would be tremendous, just think of how many people catch the train to go to work. In a big town, one the principal railroad stations has thousands of users. If you want to trace someone, you need to look for the information of all people in the area to see where that someone went, and for the next place they would have to do the same thing, and this is not the same thing has the internet, if you know how the internet works then you know what I am talking about.

As for the loss of privacy, the right to privacy is on the Portuguese constitution, and so is the right that anyone has to know what data about him has any organisation, governmental or private, so I think that here in Portugal we are relatively protected from that.