Does it Really Matter Now?

Originally posted by tomcat


The real trick of all this is to never give up, never surrender to the sometimes overwhelming feelings of hopelessness. Tomorrow the sun will rise, your children will smile and at the end of the day, you will see that it wasn't a bad after all.

I can't agree any more with this statement.
I also agree with edsinger, you have to take it hard to your enemys or they will take it hard to you.
We've faced alot worse as a nation then this. Granted "this" isn't over yet, but it will be one day and when that day comes, it will be the U.S. still standing.


Have faith people! I know it's hard sometimes, but have faith!


I see all this 'war' and pre-emptive strikes and blah blah blah as a journey to a better, peaceful place. A place that in order to get to ya have walk through a bunch of ****.
It's going to get messy and dirty, and we will all have our doubts, but in the end we will all be safer and better off because we were not afraid to take the journey in the first place.

It is now a day later, and I must say... I feel the same way.

Some may not understand ... so for the record.. its not about being alone.. My kids are home.. It is not a personal issue with depression.. I am quite happy with my life and the way I am living it.

My original post and those that followed in this thread are meant to show my concerns for the future.

Our actions in this war, right or wrong, good or bad.. Just or not!.. are not the issue.

I think the larger issues are what the future will bring to our nation in the form of terrorism.. Through our defencive actions we may have made things worse.. a lot worse and that may have been the ultimate plan of these radical terrorists.

They want a world divided between western/christian culture and Islam.

Osama Bin Laden said in 1998 that 'paraphrase' That they (Al-Qaeda) would ignite the passion for war in the infidels and bring them to the Arab world for war.

Is that not exactly what they have done?

It will not matter to the future victims of terrorism here in the USA or UK wether we have been at war or not.

We are not at war with a nation.. we are at war with terrorists.. I am not sure how there can be a win solution in this through military power alone.

We have been drawn in, and now will go where ever this enemy takes us now.

It is possible that one day these terrorists will use weapons of mass destruction.. If that day comes I don't think I will be the only one who will say "does it really matter now"

Can we win this war?

Or is all we are doing now only throwing fuel on the fires that motivate these terrorists to join the jihad and plot future attacks on larger and larger scales.

One could say we are now damned if we do and damned if we dont.

Maybe no one will ever understand me here... But that is ok.

We all have our own way of looking at this war... To each their own!

Gazz

I think the larger issue is what our future has in store for this planet. The actions of one (or the many) have set forth the re-actions of the others, and will keep spiralling on until either Nature strikes back, which is unlikely (being the gentle spirit She is), or until it is escalated to a point of rage where the re-action is one w/out thought. The only objective being to destroy the other. The losses on both sides is turning into a highly flammable form of anger and hate that soon the thought of "what will the weather be like tomorrow" will soon be omitted from their minds and they will ignite the fuel. Then, you won't want to see "the day after tomorrow."

You state that you have not/never felt this fear of future before.
Can you state exactly when this feeling came about yesterday,
and what exactly were you doing?
Are you feeling a strong feeling of something is going to happen?

UM_Gazz, I'm very sorry that since you're a mod, I can't vote you for the Way Above Top Secret award. You'd have my vote in the blink of an eye.

What people don't realize is that no matter who started it, there's nobody stopping it. The proof is all the hate that I see coming from some posters on this board. It creeps me out, because on the American side, for some people it has gone way beyond terrorists - it's now the Muslims as a whole, as well as those countries who disagreed with U.S. policy.

Yes, I know, I'm going to hear all the arguments about how Islam preaches war and violence, how the French are surrender monkeys, blablabla... That's not what I'm getting at, the causes don't interest me right now.

What interests me is the pattern of what's going on. I always ask, when you lash out at another group, what is the response you expect? Is it surrender, contriteness, regret, apologies?

Well, expressions of hate and scorn will not get that reaction. If anything, they'll make the other group even more pissed off. That group will lash out right back, pissing off American public opinion even more. Hence the vicious circle begins. And as long as neither side shows an openness to dialogue and try to understand the other, we're condemned to hate and kill instead.

Actually, it's quite easy to hate, and it's easy to kill too. It's much harder to try to step out of the "he started it" mentality, of the "violence is the only thing they understand" mentality, and try to actually find out where and why things went wrong in the first place. And of course, it doesn't help that in our world, talking is seen as weakness.

Right now, I'm going to do like UM_Gazz and have a nice evening, talk to my girlfriend, maybe go out for a walk in the park tomorrow and look at the leaves turning red. Because I know that someday - not too soon, I hope - I may be asked to choose sides.

Originally posted by Otts
Because I know that someday - not too soon, I hope - I may be asked to choose sides.

Between?

Ruins - not gonna answer that here. A) I don't want to speculate, and B) I don't want this thread to get in divisive vibe like the rest of this forum.

Originally posted by Otts
Ruins - not gonna answer that here. A) I don't want to speculate, and B) I don't want this thread to get in divisive vibe like the rest of this forum.

No problem, I was honestly just curious not trying to start anything lol.

Ruins - no prob, man. It's just that as the election looms nearer, the arguments are getting louder and more divisive... either re who is responsible for this, political terrorists or the Muslim faith, or re the attitude of the world vs. the U.S... and I see this thread as being a venue to try to rise above divisions and look at what's going on beneath us.

Originally posted by LL1
You state that you have not/never felt this fear of future before.
Can you state exactly when this feeling came about yesterday,
and what exactly were you doing?
Are you feeling a strong feeling of something is going to happen?

It is not a feeling.... It is more of an understanding on my part.. This is not a window into the future or some Psychic intuition... It is my way of seeing what has the best chance of happening in the future with this war.. It is the result of watching this all evolve from 9/11 to today... Researching just about every related topic... from then to now... and making and educated guess as to what to expect in the future.

Do I feel something is going to happen?... Actually no.. I am not really feeling at all... The signs are all there, away from the daily distractions ... away from the mainstream media reports.

There is always hope.. God knows that is all we really have.

Don't take my word for it.. Look around for yourselves.. Or just wait.. Time will take this one way or the other.

I pray I am wrong.

Gazz

Read this:
Link

... of the people ... by the people ... for the people!

Sadly Gazz it was never designed for "us".
There are those that hold powers above the law, it's been like
this for a very long time. They call the shots. Can we change things?
No.. they are far too comfortable to allow change.

But! we can live our lives, to the best and the fullest of each day!

UM_Gazz,

I know how you feel. We seem to be entering a new dark age. Selfish, willful ignorance, blustering pride, and vengeful hatred have become the defining characteristics of our time. But the so-called War on Terror is only part of it. Even as I type this, America is tearing itself apart on a multitude of issues. We can hardly call ourselves the United States anymore. And this is no accident of history.

The Power Elite of this world understand quite well the principle of divide and conquer. In America, they use such characteristics as race, religion, nationality, political affiliation, etc. to keep the populace sharply divided against itself. Everyone is too busy battling each other to realize that the real enemies of our people (in the physical realm) are those who claim to be our leaders and representatives. America is land full of blind sheep and foolish sheperds, not to mention all the wolves in sheeps clothing who are constantly ravaging the flock.

And the sad truth is that amongst the actual politicians, the only major differences between the parties are in their rhetoric. Regardless of whether Democrats or Republicans are in power, America is being driven to fiery destruction by those who desire to create a world government out of her ashes.

We need to wake up and see that this country is not merely divided, it is fractured to the core. Just try to get a group of ten strangers to agree on more than a few superficial issues. There is no collective ideology or set of beliefs and values which unites this country. And what is truly horrible is that about the only thing this country has been able to agree on for the past half century is who to kill.

War against a common enemy is the only thing holding this country together. Which is why "The War Against Terror" is being manipulated so as to practically last forever. Which I don't believe it will. But I also don't believe will end well for America.

Of course, I still believe their is hope, but it is not to be found in man.

Gazz...I get to feeling that way about the world quite a bit.

However, when I step outside and take a nice big breath of fresh air and look around at all the people that are doing what they can to survive I feel a lot better. One thing is for certain in this world, no one is alone...we are all going through the same things, but there is a point where we just have to release our frustrations and look at OURSELVES and realize that we control how we view the world. Its not about politics, history, or even the economy...it's about humanity.

One thing that makes me feel much better is going for a nice long 10 mile run through the countryside. It gives me plenty of time to think about things and enjoy what we have been given...nature, humanity, and compassion. Before I begin my run I look around...just admiring what we have been given by some supernatural "power that be" whatever "it" may be. I take a look at the sky and admire the sheer beauty of this old world and just listen to nature breath its plethora sounds into my ears.

War is tough, and never a pretty thing. Humanity has seen and done the worst and most horrible of things, but we have survived and will survive as I said before. Having a pessimistic attitude about the world is only natural especially after being on the ATS, but one thing we all need to strive for is making ourselves better. As many people have said on this site...political change starts at the local level, and its the same with our own personal change. Each of us that grows, learns, and loves is one more person that will not learn and hate.

The world is a beautiful place. Although brutalized by the evil of some...it will survive and so will we...now, go outside and love it while it lasts

By HardCore American

I also agree with edsinger, you have to take it hard to your enemys or they will take it hard to you.

That�s exactly the mentally of your �enemy�, and why they are attacking you.
Don�t kid yourself it�s because you�re �free�. When both sides have this reasoning no end comes until generations have passed, if then. It�s still here in Scotland from hundreds of years ago. People still get killed for (example) their religion based on ancient grudges the perpetrators barely even know let alone understand. Just hatred passed through generations.

By Ischyros

War against a common enemy is the only thing holding this country together

This is the main point. They focus the people on a common enemy while they carry on regardless. The British Empire perfected this technique for keeping control of a rebellious population. It's been seamlessly transfered to western democracy. There is hope; people just need to focus on the enemy within, rather than the enemy without.



So far, in this �war on terror� Bin Laden has got his main two aims. He wanted US troops withdrawn from Saudi Arabia. He got it. He wanted a Jihad against the Americans. The Americans gave it to him on a silver platter on his home soil. Bin Laden is not stupid. Look at his motives like you would your own politicians. The US actions in Iraq have rallied his people more than he would ever have dreamed of doing on his own. Current US policies play right into his hands. The reasons for that are a different thread...



[edit on 26-10-2004 by kegs]

UM Gazz:

I think I know exactly where you are coming from.

Anyone with a "big picture" view of the world and a limited knowledge of history should be able to see the same things that you, I, and many others see or �feel�. I hope its millions of others actually.

But as you can see by some of the responses on this thread and the behaviour of some on these boards (including myself on occasion ) that things like whole-istic thinking, logic, empathy, humanism and especially understanding are in short supply.

People will forget discreet injustices; it's the pattern they can't forget every time they see it again. Problem is, the pattern is an emergent property of a vicious circle spiraling out of control.

Imagine if a bullet, a bomb, a chemical or a virus killed either a mother, father, brother, sister, girlfriend or any other person you loved. You wouldn�t give a flying f@ck what the reason was. You know they were innocent and a threat to no one.

You can bet that any one of us would become a threat to those responsible in that circumstance and once revenge had been taken we would then become targets for THEIR loved ones.

Killing is a vicious little circle, no?

There seems to be an absolute refusal to understand what is fueling aggression. Every time an argument is brought up that points to any involvement or responsibility of a western government or particular people it gets shot down.

We only do "good" and "they" are just jealous; uncivilized; evil; or they "hate our freedoms".

Yeah, like any human being on this planet hates FREEDOM!

I think I understand what would drive someone to fundamentalist religion and take up arms and I know that they may not be appeasable after reaching that point.

The trick is to stop driving them to that point. There are powerful forces unleashed and at work in the world feeding the imperialist adventure that our rulers seem intent upon.

Yes a group of rulers or a government will pursue their own interests. The problem is with the interests that are pursued: profit, control, power, influence etc. In other words, the wrong reasons. I write the following phrase after having experienced personal loss inside the North Tower and the journey of understanding that followed. That day back in the fall of 2001 was one "punch in the nose" we had coming.

Fifty years of cold-war dirty politics with dictators, warlords, proxy wars etc. finally came back to hit home. The US is not solely responsible; Canada, Europe, Australia and other western �civilized� countries are also culprit.

Think about the forced creation of Israel, followed by the propping up of the Saudi Monarchy (and other Kingdoms) after the first and second world wars. All this lead to wars, or proxy wars, with just about every country in the Middle East and North Africa.

This back and forth sucker punching has been going on for a long time. The men and women of this Administration have been around the whole time in high public office (how do you think they got so rich and influential?� It was propping up the Saudis) and they now occupy the White House.

So anybody that thinks this STARTED on 9/11/01 hasn�t read his or her history.

Is it any wonder there are people out to �get us� in the world?

How do we make them want to stop �coming for us�?

Our leader�s answer seems to be �War is Peace�.

I think most people and therefore most countries want nothing more than to be left alone in peace. The world (in my humble solitary opinion) is not looking to be nannied.

A responsible, transparent and accountable government is the only way for we mere mortal individuals to have some kind of say in these matters.

In a world where we are ruled by those who lie and keep secrets, of biased mass media, of military secrets, national security secrets, conflicting research results and reporting etc. it's quite healthy to be incredulous about everything we are being spoon fed.

Many people seeking answers to their own questions about "how the world works" will try to make sense of it by placing it into some kind of narrative.

I do not view conspiracies as �conspiracies�. I see them as theories (in the scientific sense) that will either be proved or disproved. So only time and more research can change your narrative.

I think it is very healthy that a population begins to question everything. It means that they are engaged and open-minded.

Those who are quick to dismiss, seem to be the ones either threatened in their beliefs or those that like to live their lives in a black and white bubble world where they want to be "normal" just like everybody else (i.e. conformists).

So does this election matter?

Short-term yes, long term no.

Someone once wrote:

You say you want a revolution? Well, you know� We ALL want to change the world.

You tell me that it's evolution, but when you talk about destruction don't you know that you can count me out?

You say you've got a real solution? Well, you know�we'd all love to see the plan.

You ask me for a contribution? Well, you know� We are doing what we can� but if you want money for people with minds that hate. All I can tell is, brother, you'll have to wait.

You say you'll change the constitution? Well, you know� We all want to Change Your Head.

You tell me it's the institution? Well, you know� You'd better free your mind instead.

And if you go carrying pictures of BUSH �n KERRY�You ain't gonna make it with anyone anyhow.

Don't you know it's gonna be Alright?

With apologies to John Lennon.

I did it again?!

I Killed another thread!

D amn me and my poison pen! ...or should I say keyboard?

Originally posted by Gools
I did it again?!

I Killed another thread!

D amn me and my poison pen! ...or should I say keyboard?

I think the message in this thread was too powerful for some to take in.

Your reply did not get missed by me, nor any reply in this thread all are amazing, well thought out and reflect the deeper thoughts and implications of this war from all points of view.

I'd like to thank you and everyone that posted here.

Sometimes when we post things for discussion from deep inside we can open a window into the reality of this world and in this case a war that could in one way or another touch everyone who reads this thread.

Gazz

Howdy folks...

Hmmm...interesting thread...

Just got to ask a few questions...

What would have happened if we didn't take the "War" to their home turf ?

Whould everything have been peachy keen ?

You see Clinton didn't do much after the first WTC bombings, nor after the Cole bombing ( among others ), and what happened after ?

9/11

So you see, what would have happened if we didn't go ?

In my mind it would have gotten worse, the terrorists would see this as a weakness, and started esclating the bombings in the US, and we would sit back and watch it and say " Why is this happening "...

Now what this "War" has done is take it to their own turf ( instead of our own ), and after 9/11 there hasn't been any attacks on our soil, has there ?

I just re-read most of this thread.

I'm wondering how people see this topic now...
.