What I have become after 10 years of being a Christian Mystic....

reply to post by dominicus

Originally posted by dominicus
This part has tons of Gnosticism to it, but interestingly is he Eastern Orthodox view.

The E.O. believe that in the garden (which wasn't just adam and eve, but man kind and woman kind) we were originally already established in Union w/ God while here on earth in flesh bodies without Ego. The serpent tricked us w/ the fruit, which activated a false ego center, which itself blocks the experience of Union.

Though I've also heard the reverse. That the God in OT in the Garden was a demiurge/lower god, trying to keep us from Union and that the serpent told us of the fruit which lead to instant Enlightenment and being freed from the Demiurge.

Interesting… never knew that about the E.O. I will have to continue my research in that area.

I’ve read a lot of the Gnostic texts and the theology is complex. One big problem, is that Gnosticism is very difficult to define, and another, is that we know there was a clear split, between those who believed in Jesus, and those who did not.

Also many Gnostics believed that all of the OT, was this evil God, but I personal think this is based the on evil actions of men, found throughout many passages of the OT. And on the flip side of that, you have the Gnostic teacher Valentinus, who accepted Genesis, and was of the opinion that "the creation is not due to a god who corrupts but to one who is just and hates evil". Although just like many of the other Gnostics, he rejected most of the OT.

- JC

Originally posted by Joecroft
reply to post by dominicus

 

Originally posted by dominicus

I think I understand why Christians are stuck where they are at. In John 20:22" And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.""

This event took place before Pentecost.

So what really happens at Pentecost? They already have received the sprit so what is missing?

Let me show you where the church draws their interpretation.

Acts 19
19 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”
“John’s baptism,” they replied.

4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.

It is very easy to read this and think that receiving the Holy Spirit, baptism of the Holy Spirit, water baptism all occur at the same time. And this is what the church teaches. But they have it wrong.

As we can see in John the disciples received the Holy Spirit prior to Pentecost. So let's look at what is said at Pentecost.

Acts 2:1-47 ESV / 33 helpful votes
When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. ...

Now there are several logical possibilities that we could argue but they all lead to the same truth.

We could say the spirit came, left and came back at Pentecost.

We could say that there is more than one spirit that comes to us.

We could say that the same spirit that was given the day we believe somehow trigged a change in us at Pentecost and we became one with that spirit and this is what is meant when it is said they became filled with the Spirit. The day of Pentecost is the day our will finally dies.

I think you can see that I believe it is one in the same spirit that we have received but two separate experiences. The parable of the sower. Only they have not yet heard the truth. Can you see how it doesn't really matter what path is the right one of the three? The truth is most Christians have received the spirit but they simply allow the worries of this life to strangle the message. They are awaiting their Pentecost.

Pentecost is real to us we need to make it real for them. How can they possible receive the promised baptism and be born of the spirit if no one teaches them? They are waiting to die; we need to show them how to live.

Peter is asked three times do you love me. You are Peter if you understand the truth. Feed his sheep.

Originally posted by Joecroft
reply to post by dominicus

 

Originally posted by dominicus
This part has tons of Gnosticism to it, but interestingly is he Eastern Orthodox view.

The E.O. believe that in the garden (which wasn't just adam and eve, but man kind and woman kind) we were originally already established in Union w/ God while here on earth in flesh bodies without Ego. The serpent tricked us w/ the fruit, which activated a false ego center, which itself blocks the experience of Union.

Though I've also heard the reverse. That the God in OT in the Garden was a demiurge/lower god, trying to keep us from Union and that the serpent told us of the fruit which lead to instant Enlightenment and being freed from the Demiurge.

Interesting… never knew that about the E.O. I will have to continue my research in that area.

I’ve read a lot of the Gnostic texts and the theology is complex. One big problem, is that Gnosticism is very difficult to define, and another, is that we know there was a clear split, between those who believed in Jesus, and those who did not.

Also many Gnostics believed that all of the OT, was this evil God, but I personal think this is based the on evil actions of men, found throughout many passages of the OT. And on the flip side of that, you have the Gnostic teacher Valentinus, who accepted Genesis, and was of the opinion that "the creation is not due to a god who corrupts but to one who is just and hates evil". Although just like many of the other Gnostics, he rejected most of the OT.

- JC

You're right.
Gnostic myth cannot be taken literally.
It's just a myth to help people abandoning the idea of 'the creator'

From what I found in some of the articles, Plato's Demiurge was actually Zeus.
Since Zeus is not equal to Yahweh, then the demiurge does not exist.
It's just a metaphor to the leader of gods in polytheism or the god who rules the universe of monotheism himself.

These gods were just created by a group of humans to lead their blind followers for their own advantage.

The idea of god (the creator) is just a blind wisdom, because it makes people to believe that only by putting their faiths in the illusionary god, will their life be saved. Maybe, that's why demiurge is sometimes called the blind god.

Too bad, some people think that this demiurge does exist and watching them 24/7 with his angels.
In the past, I also thought like them.

Luckily I visited ATS and found the answer and also thanks to posts from people like you, dominicus, etc which helps me a lot

reply to post by dodol

Originally posted by dodol
You're right.
Gnostic myth cannot be taken literally.
It's just a myth to help people abandoning the idea of 'the creator'

From what I found in some of the articles, Plato's Demiurge was actually Zeus.
Since Zeus is not equal to Yahweh, then the demiurge does not exist.
It's just a metaphor to the leader of gods in polytheism or the god who rules the universe of monotheism himself.

Wow! Never knew that about Plato and Zues.

What I find in studying belief systems is that, ideas get borrowed from beliefs and then interwoven into others. Which means you have to constantly reassess, what the real, or original beliefs were. Which isn’t always an easy task.

And I’ve read some pretty complex believe structures around the demiurge motif. From the standard evil Demiurge God, to the more Bizare idea that the Demiuge God was good…as taught by Cerinthus.

Originally posted by dodol
Too bad, some people think that this demiurge does exist and watching them 24/7 with his angels.
In the past, I also thought like them.

Yes, there was a time when I was hooked on all aspects of Gnosticism, but now I only consider a few parts of it, to be true.

I found that to accept the demiurge, you would also have to find a way to negate all Jesus references to the OT God, and the prophets etc. I even looked into Marcion, who is claimed to have edited the Gospel of Luke. But from what I’ve looked at, Marcion’s Gospel of Luke still left many references to Jesus and the OT. Either Marcion edited only some out, or the Church put more in. But either way, the connections still remain.

Originally posted by dodol
Luckily I visited ATS and found the answer and also thanks to posts from people like you, dominicus, etc which helps me a lot

To be totally honest I’m glad I found Dominicus posts here on ATS. Can’t even believe that I’ve never seen him around ATS before, in all the time I’ve been posting here. But his OP and posts in general, are a breath of fresh air.

My experience, which I mention on page 3, is pretty unique, and I wouldn’t really expect anyone to believe it.

I’m glad I’ve helped you find some truth in some way. But my own philosophy, is that I’m not too make myself any kind of authority. But if for example, you see or recognizes some truth in what I say, then IMO it is the Father God that has helped you to see it. I’ve found that in my search, that I shouldn’t put my trust in men, because no matter how sincere they may be, they could have something wrong.

It is the Father God, who is the only true teacher IMO. If you only recognize something to be true, much latter on, then all that has changed is your understanding on it.

And it is the Father who brings all wisdom, knowledge and understanding, through the power of the Holy Spirit. The Father gives to people what they need at the right time, and at the right pace.


Peace be with you…


- JC

Originally posted by Joecroft
reply to post by dodol

 

Originally posted by dodol
You're right.
Gnostic myth cannot be taken literally.
It's just a myth to help people abandoning the idea of 'the creator'

From what I found in some of the articles, Plato's Demiurge was actually Zeus.
Since Zeus is not equal to Yahweh, then the demiurge does not exist.
It's just a metaphor to the leader of gods in polytheism or the god who rules the universe of monotheism himself.

Wow! Never knew that about Plato and Zues.

What I find in studying belief systems is that, ideas get borrowed from beliefs and then interwoven into others. Which means you have to constantly reassess, what the real, or original beliefs were. Which isn’t always an easy task.

And I’ve read some pretty complex believe structures around the demiurge motif. From the standard evil Demiurge God, to the more Bizare idea that the Demiuge God was good…as taught by Cerinthus.

Originally posted by dodol
Too bad, some people think that this demiurge does exist and watching them 24/7 with his angels.
In the past, I also thought like them.

Yes, there was a time when I was hooked on all aspects of Gnosticism, but now I only consider a few parts of it, to be true.

I found that to accept the demiurge, you would also have to find a way to negate all Jesus references to the OT God, and the prophets etc. I even looked into Marcion, who is claimed to have edited the Gospel of Luke. But from what I’ve looked at, Marcion’s Gospel of Luke still left many references to Jesus and the OT. Either Marcion edited only some out, or the Church put more in. But either way, the connections still remain.

Originally posted by dodol
Luckily I visited ATS and found the answer and also thanks to posts from people like you, dominicus, etc which helps me a lot

To be totally honest I’m glad I found Dominicus posts here on ATS. Can’t even believe that I’ve never seen him around ATS before, in all the time I’ve been posting here. But his OP and posts in general, are a breath of fresh air.

My experience, which I mention on page 3, is pretty unique, and I wouldn’t really expect anyone to believe it.

I’m glad I’ve helped you find some truth in some way. But my own philosophy, is that I’m not too make myself any kind of authority. But if for example, you see or recognizes some truth in what I say, then IMO it is the Father God that has helped you to see it. I’ve found that in my search, that I shouldn’t put my trust in men, because no matter how sincere they may be, they could have something wrong.

It is the Father God, who is the only true teacher IMO. If you only recognize something to be true, much latter on, then all that has changed is your understanding on it.

And it is the Father who brings all wisdom, knowledge and understanding, through the power of the Holy Spirit. The Father gives to people what they need at the right time, and at the right pace.


Peace be with you…


- JC

Yes, I think Roman and some organizations had corrupted Jesus' teachings in NT by adding some Mithraism and also some man-made Jesus' words that supported Yahweh's actions in OT. Maybe they did the same thing with Paul's original teachings.

Maybe the NT authors and editors like Marcion were forced by powerful organizations of their time (including Roman), to alter the books.

I believe the same things also happened to Koran. Maybe The Real Prophet Mohammed was not as bad as what we most believe.

I believe in your experience.
All of us have different beliefs in the beginning (some are christians, buddhists, atheists, etc)
And somehow, we also have weird different experience in our life according to our beliefs (most of them can be shocking)
But these different experience will also lead us back to the same Father that Jesus want us to find

Peace be with you too my friend