What I have become after 10 years of being a Christian Mystic...., page 5

reply to post by Deetermined

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In fact, if Dominicus really wants to know what it means to be born in the spirit, all he has to do is read what happened at the time of Jesus' own baptism and what the true Holy Spirit had to say and confirm. If the Holy Spirit did not confirm this same message to Dominicus, it was not from the God of the Bible that it came from.

There is no point to being in an intellectual conversation if you're not open to the possibility that you might be wrong.

reply to post by Deetermined

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When you acknowledge this simple truth (as written below), then you'll know that you've been filled with the Holy Spirit. This is the true definition of faith and what it means. This is what it means to be born again in the Spirit....

2 Cor 3:6 "Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."

By saying that you think that Jesus and Buddha must live in the same realm, you just lowered the bar and the truth for who Jesus really was.

Is this statement a relative opinion? Or is this statement fact. Please do show how you can substantially back this statement up please. Thanks.

In fact, if Dominicus really wants to know what it means to be born in the spirit, all he has to do is read what happened at the time of Jesus' own baptism and what the true Holy Spirit had to say and confirm. If the Holy Spirit did not confirm this same message to Dominicus, it was not from the God of the Bible that it came from.

Yes, all the same messages were confirmed as those to Jesus and the Disciples, and then some.....

"1 John 2:27: But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don't need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true--it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ. "

Not all mystical experiences are from God/Holy Spirit and you should know that. Go back and read about Dominicus' experience.

Please do let me know which experiences that I have had are not of God/Holy Spirit or inspired by one or both.

reply to post by Joecroft

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I think that those that start out as atheists, and then start looking into Jesus, generally have no baggage, to get in the way, of them seeking the truth. Kind of reminds of that old zen proverb, about first emptying ones cup…

YEa when I was studying to be a Christian, I asked about all the different views & denominations (and noticed that my evangelical teacher was very biased saying only they are right). Well bias can be bad when trying to find truth, so I studied all the various denominations and history on my own.

Although having said that, Christians who have become “born again”, are also sometimes just as condemning, to other groups like the Buddhist etc The biggest problem of all, is that the “born again” experience, only helps to compound an individuals, specific denominational belief, in Christianity.

Yea I found this out as well. Fortunately for me, the evangelicals had no clue about the deeper things that the Spirit reveals, so it was easy to dismiss them and find out which denominations are rich w/ Holy Spirit experiences.

Although on a personal level, I still believe that they (born again Christians) are still very much blessed by God.

No doubt. However, there are still stages and degrees of growth after getting the Spirit. Without proper guidance/knowledge, you can get the Spirit and still be judgmental, condemning, condescending other groups, (instead of loving all, loving your neighbor). This is why so many people have a bad taste in their mouth about Jesus/Christianity. Ghandi said it best, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians". Rather sad state of events, and I look to change that.

I have lots of old Atheist friends that call me about Christianity, or advice, life issues, all because they told me Im the only Christian they know personally, that does not judge them and Loves the unconditionally. Very humbling to be told that.

To be honest, I still have times where I am hot and then cold. But during the times when I’m cold, I still have the knowledge that I know my experiences were real, and I know what I am spiritually etc…

Yea hot & cold here too. However I've seen a state of Union, and have states that the Spirit has left in me that are permanent (detachment, transcendence, Love, Soul perspective, non-judgment, etc)

What's your take on this? I met a Costa Rican Christian and told him all my experiences from the Spirit, and he said he hasn't gone through them yet but that his dad is deep into it all. ANyway, he told me that at his Church, One can actually lose the Holy Spirit (by grieving the Spirit, all supportable by scripture), and that in order to get the Spirit back requires the elders at Church re-baptize you again and those that do have the Spirit to lay hands on you. I've found similar mention of something like this in E.O. as well.

When you say Holy Spirit hovered, do you mean literally or metaphorically speaking?

Literally. I would watch TV and can actually hear, feel, sense the Spirit float past me behind me. Roommates as well. I basically stopped watching TV for long periods of time after that and began to spend time in meditation to submit to the Holy Spirit and the inner changes after this.

It’s just that when I first received the Holy Spirit, which was 2 n half years ago now, I literally saw what appeared to be a ball of flame, hovering in my room next to my light.

Yea sounds right. I know other's who have seen the Spirit this way. Or an Orb of flaming light one guy said. In the Bible, they have a vision of tounges of fire on the head.

You see, I’m not entirely sure how the various Buddhist teachings define the oneness. And you might be thinking, well, they don’t need too, oneness is oneness, right? lol

Buddha had access to systems of thought/philosophy from his surrounding culture and did not have the OT. So he mastered all the surrounding systems and still hadn't reached the Absolute. When he did reach the Absolute, it's ineffable. There are no words/thoughts that can come close to describing, so he didn't. He said it is there and is accessible and see for yourself basically. And many of the monks after him got "there" in various ways (logic, reason, meditation)

When I was in Dark Night, I was entirely stripped of the Idea/concept of what God is. If you worship, Love, approach God as a thought/idea/concept, then those things are not God himself.

So Jesus eventually shows up, and is One w/ the Absolute, his own ego/will dead, and the Absolute operating through him, making that state accessible and simplified to the common folk.

It can be extremely difficult and necessary for decades in monasteries to reach Enlightenment the Buddhist way. The Christian way can be easier through Grace & understanding. Vice versa

reply to post by dominicus

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Ghandi said it best, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians". Rather sad state of events, and I look to change that.

So, if the Dalai Lama said that trying to combine Christianity with Buddhism was like trying to put the head of a Yak on the body of a cow, would you consider that judgmental too?

reply to post by Deetermined

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The verse above is talking about the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. It is not talking about scripture.

IS the description of an apple the same as an apple? If you are hungry and need to eat, or you will die, do you want food, or descriptions of food?

Read John, chapters 14, 15 & 16. Jesus was not just a "Master of masters", as you put it.

Yes I know, Son of God, Savior, and there is tons of things in those chapters enough to write books about. So what? I agree to all of that, but have a different global unbiased perspective of it. I did not only say that I see Jesus as a "Master of Masters."

(Hypothetical question) If you were God, and you knew that only those that come to you through Christ will be saved/spared from eternal Hell, would it be worth creating all of this reality?

Personally, if I knew before creation that the majority would be doomed to hell because the majority of souls will not choose Christ (due to bias of world programming, bias of region/country their born in, bias due to dif religions parents instill in their kins, and I can go on and on about the bias similar to when Jesus is on the Cross and says about his crucifiers "forgive them Father, for they know not what they do). The majority know not what they do.

I personally would not create existence if the majority are to burn in Hell. That's me. Now how much more is God than I? How much more Loving, Graceful, Peace, Transcendent, Etc....

There are tons of Philosophical questions you need to consider if you are going to accept the Westernized Fundy dogmatic version of Christianity.

So, when you gave your definition of who Jesus was to you, why didn't you include that he was the only begotten Son of God?

Ok, add it to the list. Although I think there is alot more mystical understanding to that specific title than meets the eye.

So, you think you're in fellowship with Christ when you spend more time contemplating Buddha's philosophy than you do the teachings of Jesus himself?

Jesus teachings' are watered down parables formulated for the ignorant masses. It is his Milk, and when you get the SPirit and are taught the Mystical experiences and transformation, that is the Meat.

Mark 4:11-12 "He [Jesus] told them, ' The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that, they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"

You think that's the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit only bares witness to the Word, which is Jesus. Jesus was the Word made flesh as told in John, chapter 1.

I am baring witness to the Mystical word of Christ, the meat, the Spirit, death of the old self(ego), Spiritual transformation, understanding of Philosophy, of going within, of Loving others, etc etc

I don't believe your "ego slayer" was the Holy Spirit. When you start talking about ego slaying,

Doesn't matter what you believe. What matter's is what the word says:

1 Cor 15:31 "I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily."

Matt 16:24 "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."

Col 3:9-10 "Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator."

John 3:3 "I tell you a truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

I can go on and on and on, "To Live, you must die" in Romans, "You must be born of water and spirit", and so forth.

However, this "Self" that has to be denied, that has to die .....what is this Self? Do you know yourself? To find out what this "self" is requires understanding of various branches of Philosophy, Psychology, and surprisingly, Buddhism is RICH In describing the composition and inner workings of the "self." If you don't know this self, how can you possibly follow Biblical teachings?

non-duality and absorption, you're talking from the spirit of Buddha, not the Holy Spirit.

Longing for nondual absorbtion, Home, Union, began to burn/yearn in my heart & soul upon getting the Spirit and came from the Spirit, way before I ever knew the details of non-dual & Buddhist philosophy.

Notice how you don't talk about Jesus much?

IS there a rule book that says I have to mention his name in every sentence? Jesus is soooooo deep that he requires understanding of various branches of thought to comprehend his teachings, and mystical understanding through the Spirit.

Continued....

reply to post by Deetermined

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Continued......

In all of your mystical experiences, what did it teach you about Jesus? Once again, I'm not talking about what you've learned about yourself, but what did you learn about Jesus?

That he was Love, Understanding, One w/ God, a Prophet, Savior, someone who came to wake up the sleepwalkers, to change the dead ways of the OT following Jews who were not producing Enlightened Saints, a Slayer of Sin, a channel of Grace, a teacher of Truth, a Blueprint, a Map, a King, a best friend, someone who understands us all, who forgives us even when we are at our worst operating from ego/ignorance. Someone who had to water down his true teachings to appeal to the ignorance and low level understandings of the Masses. Someone who was misunderstood. A Mystic, Truth Bearer. Someone who had to use all the language and scripture of the Jews so that they would listen to him. Son of God, who teaches us all and shows us all how to be sons of God.

Someone who shares his experience as "One w/ God" with us as well. Someone who destroys our own ego's, and replaces them with his consciousness, experiences, understanding, and perspectives so that we too can one day say, "Not I, but Christ in Me."

Somebody who is, for the most part, entirely misunderstood by the churches that were built up after him. "Christianity" & "Christians" being a label given to us by non-Christians, we were originally called followers of "The Way". The Way that he showed how to Live, how to be, how to die to the self and be spiritually and mystically transformed.

I can write volumes of books of what the Mystical experiences have done to me in my understanding of Christ. One them also being a greater understanding of myself and who I am. That I pre-existed prior to an ego and body. That the body (animalism) and the ego, are themselves the causes of Sin, and through Grace, prayer, meditation, knowledge, understanding, mystical transformation, you can actually overcome, master, have in check those aspects of yourself that cause lower-based worldly acts, and instead have a Soul/Christ/God based perspective which includes helping others, Love, Non-judgement, etc etc.

I literally go on for volumes, but I'll leave it at that for now.

So, if the Dalai Lama said that trying to combine Christianity with Buddhism was like trying to put the head of a Yak on the body of a cow, would you consider that judgmental too?

When I was an Atheist, I had yet to meet a single Christian approach me with Love and as someone who is Christlike. They were no different in temper, lust, greed, ego, than anyone else in my debates.

WHile I was studying to be a Christian, my teacher only approached me with Love because he knew me prior. HE treated anyone who was not of his denomination as wrong and also fiercely debated others with fire and hatred, out of ignorance not knowing their background or logical frame of mind.

Now in retrospect, I find the same thing still goes on. The people who call themselves Christians, the majority I have met, are nothing like what Christ teaches them that they should be. I've met folks from other religions more like Christ, than anything I've met in Christianity except for one woman, who would selflessly give you her arm and leg if you needed it.

I don't consider judgmental, cross referencing Christianity against Buddhism for the sake of understanding. Christianity is a religion, a path, a way. Buddhism is merely the science of meditation, of what the "self" is, and what happens when you go within.

Jesus said, "The Kingdom of Heaven is within You." He also knew that you can access the ABsolute by going within.

You lack understanding of what Buddhism is and teaches, which causes you to say what you say. There is a terrible teaching within the Church of saying that "anything that is not in the Bible is of the devil." Go look historically to what the church did to those who said that the world was round, that we revolve around the sun instead of vice versa.

reply to post by Joecroft

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Continued...

...yea sorry man, this is part 2 to your reply. I got caught up in replies to Deetermined.

I know that your path started with Jesus, but I’m curious as to why you still consider, or refer to yourself as a “Christian mystic”, why not just mystic or Buddhist mystic etc?

I still consider myself a "Christian Mystic Nondualist" for several reasons. Though they are all labels, and we are not labels, we are so much more than labels.

The Christian part, is because I rep Christ. My whole life now revolves around completely what he was about and what he taught was possible for us as far as transformation goes and reaching a state where we are One in Christ and God. My whole Spiritual foundation is built upon Christ and what he represents to me. The relationship is still there, but it's very transcendent. Like if we were to sit next to each other, and we can just look at each other, and there is automatic Love there, transcendence, a knowing, a deep soul filled reverence for him and what he went through and whome he respesents.

The Mystical part is due to the Holy Spirit which gave birth to the Mystical states. I had no say in that, it was just kind of thrust upon me when my ego let go and gave way to the Spirit.

The Nondualist part because I read the Koan and through logical understanding, and letting go, I dropped into the Heart, where the Absolute is. Glimpsing the Profoundness of Absolute Beingness. I was literally shown the inner workings of the ego, body, the soul, everything......

But beyond those 3 titles, I know that I pre-existed a a soul/consciousness, prior to all this here. I know that there is a source to me as That, and when I experienced the Absolute Beingness, that was home, back with the Father. I know knew what Jesus meant when he said that he and the Father were One, but he was that permanently. For me it's glimpses and stages of peeling away the onion of the Ego self to be discarded and myself to be back home w/ God.

Which aspects and elements of Christianity, do you still hold onto and why?

I still hold to the teachings of Christ, being changed by the Holy Spirit, contemplation, going within "The Kingdom of heaven is within you" the most important commandment, love thy neighbor ...all of those things only being possible after getting the Spirit.

On top of that there is a rich Christian Mystic tradition that teaches asceticism, various prayers, vigils, retreats, studies of those granted Union, etc etc. There is more Christian material than just the Bible to give you a leg up on the enemy of your soul.

Can you show me where to start, or where you started?

Go to the wiki page of Christian Mysticism
Influential Christian Mystics
Study it, specifically the Mystics themselves and their writings, or the one's specifically who describe Union w/ God. Miester Eckhart being one of them.

The stages to Union are described also in various texts, St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, The Cloud of Unknowing, Ladder of Divine Ascent. One of my Favorites is Philokalia, which is writings of the Desert Fathers who would live ascetically in the desert working on receiving the Spirit, perfecting prayer, psychological/sub-conscious cleansing, going within ...spending decades on inner work. These were Master's of following in Jesus' footsteps.

The experience I described in my other post regarding my third eye…does that sound anything like what you went through yourself? I know those things aren’t mentioned in the Bible, but at the same time I know that I experienced it, and that it happened only just a few months, before I received the Holy Spirit.

Yea it sounds about right. There are elements to the third eye different to everyone. For me, I actually saw through skin and brick walls, everything was made of light. But because I was taught like out buddy "Deetermined" that everything is literal and that "Mystical" is of the devil, my ego produced feared and cut off the third eye experience and various other inner experiences, all until I was sure that Western Christianity was a sham, a dogmatic literalism, lacking inner personal spiritual transformation, the blind leading the blind.

So what if you're a theologian/pastor who knows the Bible inside and out, and yet lack inner wisdom of the heart, the workings of the ego, the body, the transformations that come with the Spirit, etc.

But having read your journey a few pages back, yea sounds legit. It was personal. The Church/teachers can pollute the message, but it came to you directly and mystically.

Also the Awareness, that is separate of the Mind, the real subjective pre-existent you is in the third eye center. Dropping from there to the heart, Union happns

reply to post by dominicus

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So what made you do what you did (fasting for 21 days, etc)? What compelled you to do it?

Originally posted by DelayedChristmas
reply to post by dominicus

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So what made you do what you did (fasting for 21 days, etc)? What compelled you to do it?

I used to be a skeptic and hard core atheist back in the day, but always knew, or had a hunch, that someone who goes through a type of renunciation, to penetrate the depths of the mind/ego/self, will definitely find something about the nature of themselves and reality, that most don't know and never will.

Eventually gave Christianity a shot and found the 40 days in the Desert spent by Jesus, highly inspirational and possibly even a necessity, to understand Jesus. Its definitely given me a deeper and profound understanding of various aspects of Jesus, myself, reality/nature, and much much more

reply to post by dominicus

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I can write volumes of books of what the Mystical experiences have done to me in my understanding of Christ. One them also being a greater understanding of myself and who I am. That I pre-existed prior to an ego and body.

Quit focusing on yourself. You're being deceived when you do this. The idea of pre-existance prior to body is not biblical.

1 Corinthians 15:45-49

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy (meaning humans): and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly (meaning the angels).

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. (in the afterlife, not beforehand)

reply to post by dominicus

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You lack understanding of what Buddhism is and teaches, which causes you to say what you say.

I don't have to. The Dalai Lama said it for me.

Q: Do you think it is possible to be both Christian and Buddhist at the same time?

A: I ... [previoiusly--see later] replied to this question indirectly when I said that belief in a Creator could be associated with the understanding of emptiness. I believe it is possible to progress along a spiritual path and reconcile Christianity with Buddhism. But once a certain degree of realization has been reached, a choice between the two paths will become necessary.

hhdl.dharmakara.net...

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by dominicus

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You lack understanding of what Buddhism is and teaches, which causes you to say what you say.

A: I ... [previoiusly--see later] replied to this question indirectly when I said that belief in a Creator could be associated with the understanding of emptiness. I believe it is possible to progress along a spiritual path and reconcile Christianity with Buddhism. But once a certain degree of realization has been reached, a choice between the two paths will become necessary.

Yes. It is the knowing of emptiness. It is realizing emptiness.

Check this video out and you may realize the emptiness if you follow and participate.
youtu.be...

But not many want to realize emptiness and most don't see the point.
Emptiness is heaven.

reply to post by Deetermined

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But you don't need to turn to mysticism to figure that out.

I did not turn to Mysticism. Mysticism turned to me when the Spirit descended upon me. It's the supernatural mode of consciousness and Being for Jesus/God/Spirit. Do you really think that when you get the Spirit, penetrate the mysteries of Jesus, and get close to God, that you will operating with the same watered down, worldly, zombified frame of mind that is the majority mode of operating?

If what the word says mattered to you, you wouldn't be practicing mysticism.

The word mattered, I followed, and mysticism was bestowed upon me by following the word.

The Holy Spirit is more than capable of humbling someone without making them feel like they're going to die.

I already gave you plenty of verses in support of ego death, and your own ego still looks for an out. Makes me wonder what denomination your part of that is teaching you watered down versions of the gospel and keeping you from your own inner transformation.

By the way, did you ever feel the need to repent during all of this?

Tear filled months. I was once the worst of the worst. It seems though as your looking for any possible hole you can find against my perspective, so your trying to cover all the bases. They've been covered over the last 10 years.

You keep talking about destroying the ego, and yet you continue to search from within and go on and on about "Self". Quit focusing on the self at all and start focusing on Jesus and the Bible, then the rest will follow.

WHo says I'm focusing on self? Your assuming again. To focus on Jesus/Bible requires you learn just what Focus is, who you are, you meet them half way and Grace/Spirit does the rest to transform you. The paraphrased teachings and love of Christ is written in my heart at all times. I can take a single verse from Jesus, and sit with it for months, as each day it breaks down into something new.

Quit focusing on yourself. You're being deceived when you do this. The idea of pre-existance prior to body is not biblical.

According to which denomination?

Your grasping flat earth and earth revolves around the sun logic.

Jer 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. "

A concept of pre-existence was advanced by Origen, a Church Father who lived in the second and third century AD. Origen believed that each human soul was created by God[1] at some time prior to conception. Church Fathers Tertullian and Jerome held to traducianism and creationism, respectively, and pre-existence was condemned as heresy in the Second Council of Constantinople in AD 553.[2] Origen quoted Romans 9:11-14 as evidence for his position: For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

The popular version of what Christians are supposed to believe, is not always the right version. History books are written by winners of wars.

Go look at the Bible of the Ethiopian Jews. They actually have a right to claim the most direct and cleanest version of Christianity due to King Solomon & Menelik, and their Bible doesn't look like what yours looks like, and they didn't need any counsel of Nicea. Do your homework!

Dalai Lama: But once a certain degree of realization has been reached, a choice between the two paths will become necessary.

That's his take/opinion.

Go google "Christian Nonduality" and do some homework. Our path is all about Christ, and our relationship, death of the old self and sinning ways, and life and new ways in the Spirit.

This requires understanding in various branches of thought and your not seeming to understand. If you did not learn to read, to use logic/reason, you would not be able to understand the Bible/Jesus.

If you do not understand Philosophy, Logic, Reason, self, psychology, lack the mysticism of the Spirit, lack lengthy retreats, going within for serious bouts, then you entirely lack a grander greater vision/understanding of who Christ was and what he taught.

What is existence? Who am I? What Am I? What/Who is another? Why? What is truth? Subjective vs. Objective. etc etc ...these are basic tenets of Philosophy that require knowing and understanding to be able to more fully grasp Christ/God/Spirit.

IF you lack this, then you are regurgitating what you have been forced to believe by some preacher/pastor/priest who himself may not have the Spirit.

reply to post by dominicus

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This requires understanding in various branches of thought and your not seeming to understand. If you did not learn to read, to use logic/reason, you would not be able to understand the Bible/Jesus.

Then why is it that you keep misinterpreting the Bible?

I think it's clear from all of your previous posts that it's because you've gotten away from the Bible and spend more time studying the philosophy of men and texts written by spiritual gurus instead.

All I ask is that you compare these mystical experiences you have against scripture as a back up.

The verses you posted regarding Jeremiah 1:5 and Romans 9:4 are all verses relating to the foreknowledge of God. They in no way imply that we existed as spirits before we were given a human body.

Acts 15:18

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Here's what the Bible says about human creation (besides the verses I posted earlier)...

Zechariah 12:1

12 The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

The verse above says "formeth" the spirit of man "within" him. It does not say "appointed" a spirit or "sent" a spirit to reside within him.

While you may choose to use John 17 to explain your definition of "Christian non-duality", you need to read all of the verses in this chapter closely.

John 17:11

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Jesus prays over and over again for God to consider his disciples to be like him "that they MAY BE one" like Jesus and God were. Jesus said he "manifested God's name" unto them and that he had "given unto them", and kept them in God's name while he was on earth, but now he needed the Holy Spirit to take over since he was leaving the earth.

The verses above do not imply "absorption". They imply that as long as we are living in this world that we need help from above to continue in our walk with God.

You speak so much about logic and reason. If you're thinking logically, you'd be asking yourself, if we all existed as spirits before we were given bodies, what was the need for Jesus Christ to die on the cross? Jesus had to come as a human in order to save humans, period. We were not created the same way as the angels, as the Bible will tell you. The Bible doesn't tell us that Jesus/God made any special concessions for angels who chose to sin against God. Why is that? Because they already held knowledge of good and evil as well as the truth (at the same time) when they chose to exercise their free will. We didn't.

Job, chapters 37-39 make it clear that God told Job that he wasn't around at the time of creation, so why question him? The Bible tells us that God's thoughts are not our thoughts and that we would never understand them as humans. These chapters also prove that Job did not exist as a spirit before he was placed on earth in a humanly body.

As far as the verses you posted in Romans, chapter 9, these verses only prove that God had used select people to carry out his plan/will in order to spread the gospel of the kingdom and how it fits in with the bigger plan. God has the foreknowledge to know who's going to follow him and who isn't and uses all of them to carry out his will. I'm not sure how you think of these verses as pre-existence.

Based on what I've witnessed, I can totally see this coming to fruition...

"Satan's Plan to Take Over the World"

1. The truth of God’s Word is presented as a lie
2. The lies of the non-Christian religions are presented as truth
3. The true Christ becomes the Antichrist, or cosmic Christ
4. The Triune God becomes the universal God of all faiths
5. Spiritual rebirth becomes a mystical spiritual experience
6. The narrow way to heaven becomes the false road of conflict
7. The broad way to hell becomes the accepted way to harmony and peace
8. Prayers to God become meditation and the invoking of spiritual powers
9. The Christian faith becomes an ecumenical alliance of all faiths
10. The temple of God in Jerusalem becomes Satan’s temple of all faiths
11. Divine revelations in the Bible become extra-biblical revelations
12. The futuristic kingdom of God becomes a humanistic kingdom-now
13. The rapture of believers becomes the removal of rebels

www.discerningtheworld.com...

reply to post by Deetermined

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Then why is it that you keep misinterpreting the Bible?

I think it's clear from all of your previous posts that it's because you've gotten away from the Bible and spend more time studying the philosophy of men and texts written by spiritual gurus instead.

Please show me where there is a single interpretation of the complete works of the Bible, and then point out to me all of the denominations that are incorrect in their beliefs. Because from where I'm sitting, "misinterpreting the Bible" is an entirely subjective concept.

All I ask is that you compare these mystical experiences you have against scripture as a back up.

Your scripture doesn't know everything, does it? After all, it was written by sheepherders ignorant by today's standards. Hell, they condemned Galileo for daring to suggest an idea that has now been proven a hundred times over, because it contradicted their ideas of scripture and was founded by methods not approved in said scriptures.

Your argument is a weak one.

God has the foreknowledge to know who's going to follow him and who isn't and uses all of them to carry out his will.

Which means he also chose ahead of time exactly who he was going to throw into the fiery lake, without making a single attempt to prove himself so that they may be saved. After all, we are his children, but there are those of us whom he just does not want. He would rather watch them burn than make himself evident to the point that they will do what he wants. What a douche...

Originally posted by AfterInfinity


Your scripture doesn't know everything, does it? After all, it was written by sheepherders ignorant by today's standards. Hell, they condemned Galileo for daring to suggest an idea that has now been proven a hundred times over, because it contradicted their ideas of scripture and was founded by methods not approved in said scriptures.

This only proves that we're all human and we weren't meant to have all of the answers, even Galileo.

We have known for centuries that the planets revolve around the sun, the solar system’s center of gravity. Into the first half of the last century, we also thought that the sun was stationary and that each planet’s orbit was in a single plane. During the second half of the 20th Century, however, astronomers discovered that the sun itself revolves in an orbit around the center of the Milky Way galaxy.

Therefore, we now know that the whole solar system is in motion and that, in order to keep pace with the moving sun, each planet must follow an orbit that is a spiral (or helix, as the astronomers call it). The radius, diameter and circumference of each orbit remain the same as before but now are seen as the radius, diameter and circumference of a helix.

www.paulgeiger.org...

reply to post by Deetermined

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This only proves that we're all human and we weren't meant to have all of the answers, even Galileo.

Our ability to find the answers is directly proportional to how badly we want them. Your suggestion, therefore, is that we are more willing to settle for a convenient lie than fight for a brilliant truth. While history corroborates this in many ways, it does not have to end that way. We can choose to fight for the answers we want. All of them. And in the end, such struggles and agonies will make the truth that much more precious and valuable.

I believe this. Do you?

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