Gay 'Conversion Therapy' Faces Test in Courts

reply to post by halfoldman


Great post and I agree.
These four should have done some research before hand. The article does not state what drove them to seek out this form of help. Many here set all of the blame at the feet of the "religious", perhaps it was, yet the article simply does not say. Perhaps it was due to personal conflicts.
The truth is that we are all different in some way. Very few fit in perfectly. Sadly we as humans have a way of picking up on these differences and pointing them out, there is nothing "Religious" about it.
I will agree that many religions do think you can "fix" homosexuality. They may be misguided but most times they are only trying to help, yet this would be the topic of another thread.
I thank you for staying true to the topic.
Quad

Torturing anyone should not be acceptable. Seeing that these were adults and I didn't read anywhere they were held captive. They made a decision and continued to return for this therapy. Filing a lawsuit for something you voluntary did makes no sense. I would assume everyone could file a lawsuit about something they wished they hadn't spent their money on if this is true. I know a few cases where I would love my money back, but I willingly spent and received whatever in return.

Originally posted by halfoldman

I'd say conversion therapies for minors would have to be narrowly defined to stay legal, and would have to reject techniques that amount to torture (like shocks or emetics).

At least 2 of these men were teenage minors at the time they first went to JONAH. The other 2 may have been also. I just don't have those facts.

My main concern is that a total ban in the US will lead to misguided parents sending their gay kids to camps in countries with no regard for human rights, and the growth of a completely uncontrolled industry in homophobic Third World countries.

That is definitely frightening..

My actual belief is that they knew these therapies had critics (and were perhaps nonsense), but because of their chosen belief at the time, they chose one interpretation over another.

Sheldon Bruck was only 15 (I think his article said) when out of desperation he found JONAH. Only after a few phone sessions - - did he start questioning their methods. It is then he discovered the founder was a disbarred lawyer. I posted a link to his personal blog in a previous post. You really should read his blog in full.

Many of these reparative groups used to use the term "cure" - - they switched it to "therapy".

From all I've read and heard on talk radio - - - there are therapies for gays who do not want to live as gay. However the therapy is direct in stating sexual orientation can not be changed - - - but a person can change how they choose to live their life.

Thanks Annee.

I've only read the OP's article so far, and did mention that I'm unsure of some of the details of the case(s).
But your points are taken.

I still think religion never comes with a money-back guarantee.
Imagine if it did, I'd think there would be no more religion left!
I also don't think a 15-year old could spend that much cash on a cult.
This was a sustained effort over some time.

As I said, I support the gay men, I'm just not sure on what unique basis or argument.
Because it once again highlights that gay conversion therapy doesn't work?
But does it really do that in general, or just for a specific group?

The last thing I want is people regarding involvement in some homophobic religious group as some kind of pay-back business, or a way to make money.

I also get so tired of people joining these groups, going onto all kinds of media as ex-gays, and even leading phony marriages for years, and then suddenly they come out and expect the full support of the gay community, who have been fighting for their rights (in their places) all along.

I'm not saying this is what these specific men have necessarily done.
But it makes me weary, and just a bit fed-up.

I don't think being gay is a choice, however if a gay person nowadays chooses to support a homophobic group for years, then they should at least be a bit explanatory and apologetic to all the other gay people they may have hurt before they want their cash back.

On the other hand, I've always felt that when religion performs like a marketing machine with all kinds of promises, then the members do deserve consumer rights.
If pastors accept a financial "love gift" in return for a blessing that never comes, or make false prophesies, that is also a violation of consumer rights.
So it should be an interesting case.

Of course there are many religious arguments that circumvent consumer rights in religion.
I'm sure the sect-leaders and their lawyers have long considered them all, and unfortunately in these liberal times we can no longer stone preachers to death for false promises and prophesies, like in Deuteronomy.

Originally posted by halfoldman

I still think religion never comes with a money-back guarantee.
Imagine if it did, I'd think there would be no more religion left!
I also don't think a 15-year old could spend that much cash on a cult.
This was a sustained effort over some time.

These are Orthodox Jews. I don't think the kids can be faulted for being raised in such a tight-knit cultural community. Anymore then those raised in Extreme Fundamental Christian cultural environments. Its not just religious belief - - its more then that.

Even those who are straight have a difficult time breaking free of environments like this.

And I'm atheist - - so I am not supporting religion.

I also get so tired of people joining these groups, going onto all kinds of media as ex-gays, and even leading phony marriages for years, and then suddenly they come out and expect the full support of the gay community, who have been fighting for their rights (in their places) all along.

I am aware that the LGBT community tends to be harder on those who stayed in the closet - - that now feel safe to come out - - because of all the work those who came before them did and braved the hurt and backlash to fight for their equal rights.

Why do people always have an excuse for their actions? When their actions don't pan out, they want to sue? Somewhere in life, you have to accept what you did, whether it is right or wrong for your life. You may have been raised in a religious home, atheist home, nonbeliever of anything, broken home, etc. This may affect you to some extent, but as you get older, you have to accept the fact that you are responsible for your actions. I have nothing against gays, several members of my own family are gay. But I would say that if they filed a lawsuit like the one in the OP, I would be against their lawsuit. Most of these same family members were raised in different types of homes I described above and they don't blame any of it on who they are. I see them as family and those outside of my family are friends. No hatred here.

Don't get me wrong, there are times when lawsuits are feasible. But it's not feasible every time that you spend money and keep returning and spending more money on the same thing over and over. These four men in the OP may have been looking for some kind of a cure. Many are searching for a cure for something (cancer, aids, etc), they can't sue when it doesn't pan out for them.

Religion seems to always be the root of some peoples problem(s) or their excuse/crutch, whether they believe in it or not. Quit making excuses and own up to your actions. If religion never existed, I would love to know what people would cling to then for an excuse/crutch for all the worlds problems.

Like I said before there are many things I would love to get my money back on, but I was the one who paid the money and accepted whatever I paid for in return. I didn't blame religion, non-religion or even gave an excuse. I made a bad investment and I lived and learned from it. This is a part of growing up, learning to accept your mistakes, no excuses involved and then move on with better insight toward your future goals.

Click here for more information.

This lawsuit filed by the SPLC - - is not just about 4 men getting ripped off.

FACT: 2 were minors at the time - - probably the other 2 - - I do not have confirmation on those 2.

Lawsuits like this make headlines and bring awareness to others who might be susceptible to this kind of FRAUD.

The founder of JONAH - - - certainly did not offer up his felony conviction of fraud and that his license to practice law was revoked.

Hopefully it will at least awaken some to be more diligent about investigating any group that offers a "magical cure".

SPLC files groundbreaking lawsuit accusing conversion therapy organization of fraud

The Southern Poverty Law Center filed a first-of-its-kind lawsuit today accusing a New Jersey organization of consumer fraud for offering conversion therapy services – a dangerous and discredited practice that claims to convert people from gay to straight.

www.splcenter.org...

SPLC's campaign to end conversion therapy.

Conversion therapy – sometimes known as reparative or “sexual reorientation” therapy – is a dangerous practice based on the premise that people can change their sexual orientation, literally “converting” from gay to straight. Conversion therapy has been discredited or highly criticized by virtually all major American medical, psychiatric, psychological and professional counseling organizations.

www.splcenter.org...

reply to post by GideonFaith


Christianity is hands-down, absolutely and positively the reason why homophobia is such a huge problem in our modern society. You might be a rare exception - or you claim to not hate. But you are obviously upset about the homosexuality issues and people blaming the over-morality of the church. The minors in the conversion therapy were probably FORCED to go, by parents who are Jesus-lovers like yourself. Because somewhere in Levictus it says "man shall not lie with another man" or some baloney. There is plenty of good reason to have animosity towards people clinging to B.S. in the bible and cramming it down other people's throats. This has been going on for centuries, and a lot of people have had enough of it, thank you very much!

Originally posted by corsair00
reply to post by GideonFaith


This is going off topic some, but I will answer to your post.

Christianity is hands-down, absolutely and positively the reason why homophobia is such a huge problem in our modern society.

Please keep using whatever excuse, crutch or in your case religion to blame for homophobia or whatever else maybe the case. Taking ownership in your life is too hard for some to accomplish. I understand.

You might be a rare exception - or you claim to not hate.

This is exactly what I posted, don't arrange my words to fit your needs of hatred.

I see them as family and those outside of my family are friends. No hatred here.

But you are obviously upset about the homosexuality issues and people blaming the over-morality of the church.

Actually, this is what I said, rearranging my words again.

Why do people always have an excuse for their actions? When their actions don't pan out, they want to sue? Somewhere in life, you have to accept what you did, whether it is right or wrong for your life. You may have been raised in a religious home, atheist home, nonbeliever of anything, broken home, etc. This may affect you to some extent, but as you get older, you have to accept the fact that you are responsible for your actions.

Another quote from my post.

Don't get me wrong, there are times when lawsuits are feasible. But it's not feasible every time that you spend money and keep returning and spending more money on the same thing over and over. These four men in the OP may have been looking for some kind of a cure. Many are searching for a cure for something (cancer, aids, etc), they can't sue when it doesn't pan out for them.

Religion seems to always be the root of some peoples problem(s) or their excuse/crutch, whether they believe in it or not. Quit making excuses and own up to your actions. If religion never existed, I would love to know what people would cling to then for an excuse/crutch for all the worlds problems.

One last quote from my post on this subject.

Like I said before there are many things I would love to get my money back on, but I was the one who paid the money and accepted whatever I paid for in return. I didn't blame religion, non-religion or even gave an excuse. I made a bad investment and I lived and learned from it. This is a part of growing up, learning to accept your mistakes, no excuses involved and then move on with better insight toward your future goals.

The minors in the conversion therapy were probably FORCED to go, by parents who are Jesus-lovers like yourself. Because somewhere in Levictus it says "man shall not lie with another man" or some baloney.

You are assuming a lot here. First, that they all were minors and were forced by their Jesus lover parents. Second, you compared me to their parents as being a Jesus lover. I keep forgetting people can see and feel behind these computer screens of what the next person is exactly like in real life. Thanks for the reminder.

There is plenty of good reason to have animosity towards people clinging to B.S. in the bible and cramming it down other people's throats. This has been going on for centuries, and a lot of people have had enough of it, thank you very much!

There is enough animosity going around towards people, whether the Bible or religion is involved or not. Like I said before, people need to grow up and quit making excuses or holding onto crutches.

I tried to quit smoking, and I eventually paid to participate in a "smoking secession" program and they failed to make me quit.

Does this mean I can sue them now?

Originally posted by ausername
I tried to quit smoking, and I eventually paid to participate in a "smoking secession" program and they failed to make me quit.

Does this mean I can sue them now?

Smoking is a choice. You are not born a smoker.

Did they offer you a 100% cure? Were you a minor?

Was it about FRAUD?

This suit is about FRAUD. About lying and manipulative practices offering a cure that both the medical and psychology association say is not only wrong but harmful.

Originally posted by Annee

Smoking is a choice. You are not born a smoker.

I rest my case!

Sometimes you just have to appreciate the humor and brilliance for what it is.

Originally posted by corsair00
The minors in the conversion therapy were probably FORCED to go, by parents who are Jesus-lovers like yourself. Because somewhere in Levictus it says "man shall not lie with another man" or some baloney.

In this case they were Orthodox Jews. But YES - - it was because of religion.

At least one of these minors out of desperation found JONAH on his own - - his parents supported him.

However - many minors are forced to go to by their parents. That is why a law was recently pass in CA outlawing repetative therapy for minors. But that law only affects professionals - - not clergy or non-licensed professionals.

Originally posted by ausername

Originally posted by Annee

Smoking is a choice. You are not born a smoker.

I rest my case!

Sometimes you just have to appreciate the humor and brilliance for what it is.

I'm not sure what you mean.

Sexual orientation is not a choice. It is not something wrong that needs to be cured or treated.

Originally posted by GideonFaith
Originally posted by corsair00
reply to post by GideonFaith

 

This is going off topic some, but I will answer to your post.

Christianity is hands-down, absolutely and positively the reason why homophobia is such a huge problem in our modern society.

Please keep using whatever excuse, crutch or in your case religion to blame for homophobia or whatever else maybe the case. Taking ownership in your life is too hard for some to accomplish. I understand.

Understand? Understand what?

Religion is exactly the reason these 4 men went to JONAH.

Yeah Right! Let me tell my 15 year old grandson to take ownership of his life. And he's straight with no issues or hate from others.

Actually the 15 year old minor did take ownership of his life by searching for a way to cure being gay.

Originally posted by Annee
Originally posted by GideonFaith
Originally posted by corsair00
reply to post by GideonFaith

Understand? Understand what?

Trolling and baiting again Annee?

Religion is exactly the reason these 4 men went to JONAH.

The reason I read in the OP was they went searching for a "cure". They went to a so called religious therapy for help for this "cure".

Yeah Right! Let me tell my 15 year old grandson to take ownership of his life. And he's straight with no issues or hate from others.

There are many children who are emancipated in their teen years. What this has to do with a lawsuit or the OP,

Actually the 15 year old minor did take ownership of his life by searching for a way to cure being gay.

Make up your mind, either they can or can't take ownership of their life.

I don't agree with this type of therapy taking place. I also don't agree with there being a cure for gays. I also don't agree with trying to get money for something you paid for and it didn't work. Many people try therapy for different things that can be life altering and they don't work, they don't sue for their money back. If everyone could get their money back on something that didn't work, the courts would be booked so far back you probably would die before your case was even considered.

Also using religion and politics as an excuse or crutch for everyone's problems is ridiculous. Like I said before people need to grow up and accept the fact they made a choice, (mistake or not) and move on knowing what they learned to make their future better. No amount of money is going to change the past, you can only choose to accept it and learn from it, then to move forward.

reply to post by GideonFaith


Its kind of funny. Only religious believers call me a troll. You guys really need to come up with a new line.

All I see is you trying to skirt the issue.

FACT: the motivation was religious based. No amount of your deflection will make it otherwise.

FACT: they were minors.

FACT: this lawsuit is about FRAUD.

FACT: this is not a "buyer beware" of legal adults.

FACT: they are backed by the SPLC which has been campaigning against these fraudulent practices.

The devastating consequences of conversion therapy are why the Southern Poverty Law Center is dedicated to ending this practice and defending the rights of individuals harmed by it. www.splcenter.org...

Originally posted by Annee
reply to post by GideonFaith

 

Its kind of funny. Only religious believers call me a troll. You guys really need to come up with a new line.

I never said I was religious. It doesn't matter what thread you are on, you look for something religious to be at fault and try to start a debate on it, instead of the OP. If you start about the avatar again, it's getting old. Read about Gideon, then we can discuss that on another thread if you like.

All I see is you trying to skirt the issue.

In your eyes maybe. I've stated my opinion about the issue.

FACT: the motivation was religious based. No amount of your deflection will make it otherwise.

Not deflecting, it was a choice to go there or not. Religious therapy or not, it's still a choice.

FACT: they were minors.

If it was their parents who sent them to JONAH, then it is the parent's fault. They need to sue them too.

FACT: this lawsuit is about FRAUD.

FRAUD is found in many things, it's not a reason to sue. I see suing to stop this type of therapy, just not because you didn't get your "cure".

FACT: this is not a "buyer beware" of legal adults.

Not all things are buyer beware either. Therapy in any form normally tells you they can cure you of whatever ails you. It doesn't mean you believe everything you see or hear from these therapies. Whether it's the parents or an adult, research should of been done before starting any kind of therapy.

FACT: they are backed by the SPLC which has been campaigning against these fraudulent practices.

This is suppose to change the fact they made a choice? ONCE AGAIN, I do NOT condone that the therapy was proper or a cure. If all these things happened during therapy, then that type of therapy needs to be shut down.