"to my God and your God”

reply to post by FlyersFan

You've been told many times. You just refuse to listen.

Jesus is True God and True Man. BOTH. You've been told this many times. And you've been shown MANY bible verses showing where Christians get this belief.

I've only been given a strange interpretation.... or an opinion. It doesn't change the meaning of the words in the OP.
Jesus cant be both the true God and true Man and then say "he is going to his God and our God". You are trying to have your cake and eat it too.

Its like me saying "I'm flying to London to meet my boss and your boss, but you somehow understand me as being the true boss and a true employee.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
“I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”

edit on 23-11-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

"I am the son of God"

"I am ascending to my father and your father"

Therefore we are also sons/daughters of God.

For those of us who wish to believe that he is both man and God, doesn't this statement place us all on par with Jesus and therefore we are all both man and God?

reply to post by Glass


I don't really hinge my philosophies on the words of Jesus. However, I do believe that we have the potential to become gods, and Jesus implied as much on more than one occasion.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
I've only been given a strange interpretation.... or an opinion.

No 'strange interpretation' has been given. You've been given His exact words .. His exact words showing both His human nature and His divine nature. You have to put them all together to get a full picture. What you are doing is taking one tile of a mosaic and saying that's a 'whole picture' when in fact you must look at all the tiles together to get the entire picture.

Read the links. Read the bible quotes all TOGETHER.

And people's opinions on what is being said ... scripture scholars understand the bible MUCH better than you do. I suggest you listen to them when they put it all together to explain things. That is .. if you really want to know what it says and aren't just running a thread to try to get Christians to reject their God.
Google is your friend ...

The quote just before the one you are stumbling over ..

so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you,

USCCB.ORG

To my Father and your Father, to my God and your God: this echoes Ruth 1:16: “Your people shall be my people, and your God my God.” .

Jesus, who is true God and true man, is speaking from His human nature. As a human the Father is His God - just as He is ours. He calls the Father His God because He is His God whom He worships, prays to and needs in His humanity. Elsewhere, we see His references to being God incarnate. You must read ALL his quotes and put them together to understand .. not just cherry pick one here or there.

You've seen all the quotes showing him to be God incarnate. But your Islamic bias rejects those. So how can you accept this quote from His human nature, but reject all the other quotes that show his Divinity? IMHO - You only want to accept the quotes that water down who Jesus is because Jesus, being God incarnate, is so much higher than your Muhammad and that makes you uncomfortable.

Belief Net - Jesus Christ is True God and True Man
Catechism on the Incarnation of Jesus
Jesus Christ .. Son of God .. with bible quotes and all
EWTN Jesus True God and True Man
Jesus Divinity in Scripture

Jesus .. Fully God and Fully Human. It's all there.
If you still don't get it .. then it's your own bias against the Christian belief.
And no amount of educating you here will get through.

reply to post by FlyersFan


So it is possible for a man to be godly?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

You posted that response less than 3 minutes after I posted the information that goes right to the heart of the conversation. I'm VERY sure that you didn't bother to read any of the links or information that was posted.

OUT.

reply to post by FlyersFan

You posted that response less than 3 minutes after I posted the information that goes right to the heart of the conversation. I'm VERY sure that you didn't bother to read any of the links or information that was posted.

And I'm VERY sure you just attempted to dodge the question by implying that I was too stupid to deserve an answer. Very mature - NOW ANSWER THE QUESTION.

Note: something tells me that the links you posted aren't very informative or objective, more along the lines of righteous brow-beating with a healthy dose of faith.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
“I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”

This isn't some mysterious riddle or a cryptic message laden with hidden symbols. Rather, its a simple and direct statement that shows exactly where Jesus stood in relation to God and people.

What the words say is simple and direct- how we understand those simple and direct words is at the heart of the matter. If I can get you to understand the words like I do, then I can alter your perception of the concept. This is the nature of the state of confusion caused by manipulation of the meanings of words. Control the meaning, control the understanding, control the mind, control the perception.

So let's take this "simple and direct statement" and see what we can do with it. Bear in mind here I'm not saying that the following things are true: just attempting to illustrate to you why "simple and direct" is not as "simple and direct" as you may think (control the words and control the perception, and the you may do as you will with the mind). We both know how "simple" it all is- but for some odd reason, "simplicity" has yielded myriad Christian doctrines and contradictory beliefs.

Okay, what if I say, "There are two Fathers and two Gods"? My Father and your Father- two Fathers: mine and yours; otherwise why wouldn't Jesus just say, "To our Father" and "to our God?" So His choice of "Mine and yours" instead of simply "our" shows He is speaking of two completely different Fathers and Gods, true? Simple and direct. There are two Fathers and two Gods.

Jesus says his Father is Father to the people as well, and also that his God is also the God of the people. I wish I could expand on this further, but this simple statement speaks volumes for itself.

No, see, you're already wrong as I've shown. There are TWO Fathers and TWO Gods, there is no, "Jesus says his Father is Father to the people as well" at all- He is clearly saying there are TWO different Fathers: not "My Father who is also you Father" (else, why not just say, "our Father") but "My Father and also to your Father" two completely different Fathers.

When we have such resoundingly clear statements from Jesus, that he himself prayed to God

Resoundingly clear. It's always so resoundingly clear, isn't it? Look at this prayer:

John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

You've probably read that and think to yourself, "Yes, this is one of the resoundingly clear passages where it is made simple and direct that Jesus is not God because He is simply and clearly speaking to God in the third person. Simple." Ah, but look again. Because Jesus is not only "not God" (as you have clearly and simply noted) but look again because Jesus (the one praying here) is not Jesus Christ! Read the last verse again. He doesn't pray "that they may know You the only true God, and Me, whom You have sent" He says, "and Jesus Christ"- clearly then the same simple reasoning showing that Jesus is not God also shows that Jesus is not Jesus Christ as well? So this man praying must be some other Jesus other than the Jesus known as "the Christ"; see?

Clear and simple. There are TWO Fathers and TWO Gods, and the Jesus praying in the garden is not the "Jesus Christ" sent by one of the two previous Gods.

I don't believe that Jesus is God, not because I have something against Jesus

No, it's because you don't understand what the words "Father" and "God" are meant to convey. Simply put, what Jesus was saying here is this:

I have fulfilled the commandments of the Sinai covenant (my Father and your Father) and am now going to receive all of the POWER AND GLORY (my God and your God) that come through that. I will presently be dispensing these things to those of you who fulfill the commandments of My covenant with you:

God = Truth
Father = Old Covenant
Son = New Covenant

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n

If Jesus is God or fully man/fully God, why didn't Jesus just say so. Its a pretty big deal don't you think?
What prevented him from doing such a thing?

He doesn't want everyone to know everything; and He's specifically concealing knowledge from pretty much about everyone in the world save a few. The reason Jesus chose to say the things that He did in that way that He did was this:

Mt 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

reply to post by MrCobb

What the words say is simple and direct- how we understand those simple and direct words is at the heart of the matter. If I can get you to understand the words like I do, then I can alter your perception of the concept. This is the nature of the state of confusion caused by manipulation of the meanings of words. Control the meaning, control the understanding, control the mind, control the perception.

Whoa, whoa, whoa! 'Control the meaning'? What the heck does that mean? You're going to make a list of all the things that line of scripture could possibly mean and then pick the one that's most canon or most comforting? You don't control meaning - you either know what it means or you don't!

There's no "get you to understand the words like I do". That sounds suspiciously like "convince you to choose a different meaning". If that's all there is to it, then the Bible is a bunch of bologna!

Here is a prime example of people choosing how to interpret the Bible. You don't CHOOSE anything - either it says what it says or it doesn't.

Okay, what if I say, "There are two Fathers and two Gods"? My Father and your Father- two Fathers: mine and yours; otherwise why wouldn't Jesus just say, "To our Father" and "to our God?" So His choice of "Mine and yours" instead of simply "our" shows He is speaking of two completely different Fathers and Gods, true? Simple and direct. There are two Fathers and two Gods.

Since when has the Bible ever shown dialogue to simply matters like that? He could very well have been clarifying that his father was also our father, as the passage implies. Is it so difficult to imagine that a cigar is just a smoke?

No, see, you're already wrong as I've shown. There are TWO Fathers and TWO Gods, there is no, "Jesus says his Father is Father to the people as well" at all- He is clearly saying there are TWO different Fathers: not "My Father who is also you Father" (else, why not just say, "our Father") but "My Father and also to your Father" two completely different Fathers.

There is supposedly only one father. You are so desperate to deny the possibility that Jesus was not "God" that you would suggest the existence of TWO gods, even when most Christians would adamantly declare that no such thing is possible according to the Bible.

I won't even bother addressing the rest of your post - it's just more of the same. You defend Christianity with words most Christians would deem blasphemous. What exactly is your stance in this discussion?

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Oh I'm sorry, you must not have noticed that I was talking to the OP and have zero interest in dialogue with you. As far as you are concerned, I ask that you ignore everything I say; I was never here. I do not exist. Thanks. Have a nice dream.

reply to post by MrCobb

Oh I'm sorry, you must not have noticed that I was talking to the OP and have zero interest in dialogue with you. As far as you are concerned, I ask that you ignore everything I say; I was never here. I do not exist. Thanks. Have a nice dream.

This is your response to my arguments? You prefer to retreat, rather than concede defeat and actually learn something? I see. You have nothing to refute my rational examination of your understanding.

I will not ignore you. I will continue to respond to your posts as I feel necessary, if only to put forth an alternative perspective for your leisurely perusal. After all, I am here to deny ignorance, not assist it. Thank you for your consideration.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n

This isn't some mysterious riddle or a cryptic message laden with hidden symbols. Rather, its a simple and direct statement that shows exactly where Jesus stood in relation to God and people.

Jesus says his Father is Father to the people as well, and also that his God is also the God of the people. I wish I could expand on this further, but this simple statement speaks volumes for itself.

When we have such resoundingly clear statements from Jesus, that he himself prayed to God, why do Christians insist that Jesus is actually the God he was talking about? Its like me telling a coworker "my boss is your boss" and he interprets that as "I am your boss".

Now I know Christians will start pulling out verses to demonstrate how Jesus is actually God.
Please don't waste your time... instead focus on the statement "my Father and your Father, to my God and your God" and explain how you interpret it as meaning Jesus is God.

Do you interpret those words as meaning Jesus said "I am your Father and I am your God" or "my Father and your Father, who is actually me.... my God and your God, who is actually me"?

I don't believe that Jesus is God, not because I have something against Jesus... but only because of Jesus' own statements that his God is my God too.

Discuss.

edit on 23-11-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

Yes, and Jesus also stated there is only one god. And Jesus also stated he himself was the son of men.

I mean, applause to you!