The pursuit of happiness, how can we make unhappy Muslims happy?

reply to post by MidnightSunshine


Yeah, I'd agree that most issues there are rooted in geopolitics and not religion.

reply to post by PatrickGarrow17

Dear PatrickGarrow17,

Thank you many times over for a thoughtful, informative, and hopeful post. That hope is necessary, for when any group gives up hope, they either collapse into slavery or rise in rebellion.

Also, please forgive the structure of the post. I ramble a bit, but I thought it was important to finish tonight.

I hope that we all achieve the highest level of inner peace and spiritual wisdom. Was it naive of me to think that the goal of a religious government would be to encourage the spiritual advancement of its citizens? Any religion, government, or group will eventually have an uninformed or corrupt leader that causes problems. History is replete with such. I think it's wrong to condemn for such an occasional occurrence.

If I understand you, Muslim nations have been forced to develop a very inferior economic structure because of pressure from the West, and being crippled by war. Certainly, oil has helped, but nothing else jumps to mind. I speak from ignorance, but it seems that Muslims have not been economically strong for much of their history. If this is true, and I don't know that it is, pressure from the West wouldn't seem to be the cause. Nor would warfare, except perhaps among themselves, or as aggressors.

Does economic progress come first in the steps towards happiness? I think you're saying that middle class citizens are harder to control than lower class. What is the incentive for governments to allow the citizens to be better off, if they see the result as loss of power? And are better off Muslims less observant Muslims?

But an Islam more consistent with Western values is growing in support, and will continue to do so exponentially as long as the West avoids alienating the general populations with continued invasions and interventions.

Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I think these countries have great potential to develop fair and tolerant societies while keeping Islam as their cultural philosophy. They just have to focus more on the larger ideas of the book

This is why I called your post hopeful. I hope for it as well. As you know, there are some worries. Revolutions changing the path of Muslim nations will take time. Many are concerned that there isn't enough time to wait for the process.

Further, while I hope the people push towards a different way of life, there hasn't been much success. Each "People's Movement" seems to be taken over by fundamentalists. Those same fundamentalists appear to be spreading into Africa and Europe with disturbing results. Will the fundamentalists or secularists win this race. At the moment, the fundamentalists seem ahead.

But I will hope along with you.

With respect,
Charles1952

Brilliantly discerned.

reply to post by charles1952


Discussions like this are productive, for sure.

Not naive at all, you're right that many of these governments are hindering progress. I think they are desperate to maintain any control they can when outward pressure is constant.

Going a long way back on this, but pre-Crusades the Islamic world was superior to Europe in terms of education and economics...it's a stretch, but maybe relevant in considering the possibility for a prosperous Islamic society.

I think there is a lot of sentiment currently in the Middle East that the West waged war and ruined their caliph empire, therefore the West is evil.

Reality is that blame belongs on both sides in any conflict, and more important that blame is unproductive.

I think along with economic progress there needs to be genuine respect and trust toward the Middle Eastern people from the more powerful Western countries. On both the common citizen level and governmental.

I can't say for sure who is winning the battle between extremists and moderates, I guess I just think that if Muslims didn't feel so squeezed by foreign presence we'd see less desperation and more reason.

The point I try and make above all others is that Islam is one of many factors in the problems, the others being socioeconomic and geopolitical. The latter are more influential on creating violent ideology, I think. Any suggestion from the West that Muslims have to leave their religion behind ends up sounding offensive and causes resentment, so IMO it's more productive to focus on the other factors. Regardless of where one stands on the religion issue.

Two of the Western ideas that seem successful are freedom of religion and democracy. So, these countries should be allowed to practice Islam and even elect Islamic governments if they wish (like in Egypt). If the Western political philosophy does hold up, there should be a progression toward tolerance and liberty from within
because people will demand better governance.

The strategy should be to diplomatically ensure Muslims that the west considers them equals and free, continue to promote trade with the goal of mutual economic benefit, make our ideals known but don't force them on anyone, and work on developing populations within our own countries that treat Islam with respect.

If this type of policy were genuinely put in place, I'd expect a decrease in extremism over the long run. Maybe there'd be some spread in the initial phase because of less Western military presence and more freedom, but as is the vast majority are living mainstream lives and recruitment for terrorist groups would be very difficult if the West and Islam were viewed popularly as allies.

It would be cool to kick off the whole thing with some type of grand treaty to promote the idea of alliance.

reply to post by lnfideI


Want to make muslims in Middle East happy

How about this.

Stop Israel from exterminating and taking Palestinian land.

Stop CIA and Mossad from sabotaging their economy, killing their intellectuals

Stop West from bribing their leaders making them puppets who give cheap
resources for pennies.

Stop making false flags as excuses to go and make war on muslims

Stop attacking them in disguise of helping them (for example this thread)

Pull the mercenary and military forces from their countries,


That is HOW you can make people civilized and happy.

reply to post by lnfideI


Maybe this will make them happy!!!

I saw this on reddit today. Seems more than a little relevant.

Originally posted by lnfideI


So lets put our hatred away for a bit and try to come up with ways that will make them happy.

Please.

What part of the "pursuit" of happiness do people not get.


People need to grow up and get on with learning to be happy instead of demanding that the rest of the world make it happen for them.

reply to post by lnfideI


You can start by making yourself happy..which clearly doesn't seem to be the case even though you will deny it over and over again. I doubt anyone on this site is happy rather than the Tro.... (Those we do not speak of).

reply to post by Domo1


Seems like Propaganda Horn is at full blow.

I live in Canada, one of the most multicultural country in the world, i have not seen a extremist Muslim.

edit:
Its the individual not the whole culture or country. Canada gets more refined, educated working class Muslims, UK(where most of these propaganda/hate arises from, has border jumping Muslims.

I tend to agree that here in Canada we have not seen this kind of unhappy behavior. We don't see this kind of thing here.

reply to post by lnfideI

So first, where are Muslims unhappy.

They're not happy in Gaza ...
They're not happy in Egypt ...
They're not happy in Libya ...
They're not happy in Morocco ...
They're not happy in Iran ...
They're not happy in Iraq ...
They're not happy in Yemen ...
They're not happy in Afghanistan ...
They're not happy in Pakistan ...
They're not happy in Syria ...
They're not happy in Lebanon ...

You conveniently left out Saudi Arabia and Bahrain which are US allies, was this done intentionally?

ETA:

Kuwait should be on the unhappy list as well. This list seems to be selective in whom they choose, it's almost as if they purposely left out friends of the USA when the list was compiled.

I don't think the Muslim leadership and Arab Spring have as much to do with being happy as they do with being in control - it seems to me like a culture that is very interested in control and order. I am not sure if happiness is their main goal.

It is probably somewhat complicated - I would want to live in one of those countries for a while or do extensive research on their culture before I really could say anything more.

Originally posted by PatrickGarrow17
Yeah, what I'm saying is your drawing this link between religion and happiness that is misleading. The link is between poverty and happiness.

Osama bin Laden had a personal fortune of around $25m to $35m. He spent it all on jihad.

The Economist

Perhaps jihad made him happy?

reply to post by ollncasino


Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. It probably did make him happy.

reply to post by lnfideI


Well, here is my humble opinion. The extremist Muslims should have no governing power. The countries you listed where there is unhappiness have extremists fighting for control (and in many cases, winning). The countries where there is less unhappiness are countries with secular governments.

There are millions of Muslims who aren't extremists - they are peaceful people who just want to get along. I personally know a couple of Muslim families who are educated, hard-working, and forward-thinking. They want their wives and daughters to be educated and independent. They admit that the Qur'an has some violent scripture, but they argue that the Bible also has some very violent scripture. Both religious documents also contain texts about love and tolerance and peace. The key is to focus on the positive aspects of a religion, which is what most Muslims AND most Christians try to do.

There was a time, at least in the southern regions of the U.S., when the KKK (who considered themselves a "Christian" group) was a much more formidable organization than it is now. I shudder to think how our country would be today if the KKK was allowed to take over governing powers. We as a people squashed the KKK, and the Muslim population needs to to the same with the extremist groups of Muslims.

Originally posted by RamsOnTop

Again, please provide page numbers and which edition you are using. That which you provided is probably sourced from a blog.

If quotes from the Koran do not satisfy you that Islam is a violent religion, can judge Islam by the actions of Muslims?



Is jihad out of character for Muslims?

Muhammad was an enthusiastic jihadi.

Military Conquests of Muhammad (blessed be his name) and his immediate successors.

Muhammad, the man of peace, conquered the Arabian peninsula before he died.

He had assembled an army of around 30,000 to invade the Byzantine lands to the North, but he died before he could set off.

reply to post by lnfideI


Simple, you give every muslim 12 virgins and a palace of gold.
Thats what there promised if they kill themselves to the glory of there god.

::does a face palm::

I bet if you went back to the distant past ice age era youd find a group of people huddled around a fire talking about what they get if they died in the name of there god..

It was foolish to think that then, just as its foolish to think of it now.

Gods are only written about..no one has ever seen a real God in the flesh.

Makes ya wonder who's been pulling the wool over everyones eyes for a very long time.

So just get them there 12 virgins and..wait..they want virgins..well..::chuckles:: I don't think in this day and age there going to find many virgins..that like saying they get the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow..

never going to happen..

how can we make unhappy Muslims happy

Deprogram people from all the organized religions of the world. (including Islam). That'll make people happier ... well ... at least SMARTER. And a smarter person is eventually a happier person .. IMHO.

reply to post by ollncasino


Some examples of our violent Christian past, where "Christians" persecuted those of other religions.

359 In Skythopolis, Syria, christians organise the first death camps for the torture and execution of arrested Gentiles from all around the Empire.

361 to 363 Religious tolerance and restoration of Pagan cults declared in Constantinople (11th December 361) by the Pagan Emperor Flavius Claudius Julianus.

363 Assassination of Emperor Julianus (26th June).

364 Emperor Flavius Jovianus orders the burning of the Library of Antioch. An Imperial edict (11th September) orders the death penalty for all Gentiles that worship their ancestral Gods or practice Divination ("sileat omnibus perpetuo divinandi uriositas"). Three different edicts (4th February, 9th September, 23rd December) order the confiscation of all properties of Pagan Temples and the death penalty for participation in Pagan rituals, even private ones. …

391 On 24th February, a new edict of Theodosius prohibits not only visits to Pagan Temples but also looking at vandalised statues. New heavy persecutions all around the Empire. In Alexandria, Egypt, the Gentiles, led by the philosopher Olympius, revolt and after some street fights, finally lock themselves inside the fortified Temple of God Serapis (The Serapeion). After a violent siege, the christians occupy the building, demolish it, burn its famous Library and profane the cult images.

freetruth.50webs.org...


And I won't even go into the Spanish Inquisition, or the Crusades, or the conquering of the Americas - all in the name of Jesus Christ....

There is violence in both the Christian and Muslim religions. The difference is, we have stopped the Christian extremists from taking over - they no longer have the power they once had. The Muslims need to do the same with their extremists.