The pursuit of happiness, how can we make unhappy Muslims happy?

Originally posted by PatrickGarrow17
reply to post by lnfideI

 

Okay,

I never said anything like all unhappy Muslims are extremists. I said to treat Muslims with respect because they are people just like all logical people and you responded by posting pictures of extremists.

You realize that these are the extreme minority? And that Muslim people are in fact no different, or less logical, than anyone else?

You are the one who seems to be using the word "unhappy" as a euphemism for terrorist. And then you apply it to populations of entire countries.


Also, your position seems to be that Muslims need the guidance of the West in order to be happy. That is selling them short as humans.


What exactly are you trying to accomplish wit this thread?

I am trying to get input from users like you, for ideas that will make unhappy Muslims happy.

Does it matter if they are extremists, jihadists, live in LOndon or Kathmandu?

Your stance seems to say you think ONLY radical Islamist are unhappy, turn your TV on and you will see that is not the case.

Please re read my OP.

You have pointed out two places Arab Muslims are happy, I could point out dozens where they are not.

Anyhow, you have expressed how to make them happy, its been noted, thank you for your input. Sorry not falling into an arguing match.

I honestly believe that if all the Extremist/Fanatical/Fundamentalist Christian/Jewish/Muslim Religious Zealots were to fall off the face of the Earth those of any Religion/Faith/Belief/Disbelief/Spirituality remaining would be Very Happy.

IMO

I am trying to get input from users like you, for ideas that will make unhappy Muslims happy.

reply to post by lnfideI


Well tell us more about it. Like how you know all of these people are unhappy? or Why you think they are unhappy?

People in the US aren't all that happy either, I thought you were talking about extremest too. As far as the run of the mill unhappiness....That's everywhere.

reply to post by lnfideI


Yeah, my opinion is that the well being in these country is more about economics, politics, historical conflicts, than it is anything inherent in Islam.

So the solutions would be to promote peace, freedom, education, prosperity.


Making Muslims happy is exactly the same as making anyone else happy.

ETA: And sorry if I've been a little argumentative here, but I'm pretty put off by the tone you're using in this thread.

In short, they are happy in every country that is not Muslim and unhappy in every country that is Muslim

Who is it that these Muslims are blaming for being unhappy?

Not Islam.
Not their leadership.
Not themselves.

It would seem to me they are blaming the counties that they are happy in.

And to make matters worse, they want to change those countries to be like the country they came from where they were so unhappy.

Could I go out on a limb here and presume that it is going to be a hard job making these Muslims happy?

You're making extreme generalization, making assumptions on the thinking of millions of people, and then proposing that it is someone outside of these countries job to make them happy.

reply to post by lnfideI

Islam, Judaism and Christianity ... are all monotheistic religions respecting the only God, Abraham and the upcoming Messiah they are neither race nor nationality !!!
with your odd logic I can deduce that christians are very very unhappy they are protesting against their governments for economical problems ! do not you see that !!!!!!

reply to post by lnfideI


How can we make muslims happy? i fail to see the logic here?.

The way you you sentence that makes it sound like muslims are...'another' race of human beings....

They are just like you and me, normal things that make you and me happy./unhappy also make muslims feel the same.

Muslims are just as unhappy and happy as any other religious follower in the world.

lol very confused here.

Anyhow.......lets say we entertain your proposal.....and we come up with an idea to make muslims more happy......how are we going to implement that solution?

Drop leaflets from the air in densley populated muslim areas around the different nations?

Seriously if you can find a solution here to make muslims happy, you can apply this solution to any other human being on this planet, you might make a lot of money aswell, because you found the secret to happiness for everybody.

I think muslims either choose to leave or remain in their home countries due to personal prefference, i see the same thing happen with atheists leaving democratic western nations to go live in third world countries, both parties are happy.

You dont want hate in this thread? i honestly believe your OP is indirectly implying hate, in the manner you have grouped muslims as unhappy.

reply to post by lnfideI


Have you ever walked into a suburban mosque? i can tell you have been to mosques and churches, out of respect. And let me tell you when i walked into a mosque i was overwhelmed with the diversity of race. I found many white people, black people, hispanic people, many arabs, and a lot of asians.

I did not find one person that did not look content or happy, infact all these races after their prayers began to shake each others hand as a farewell, it was quite a breath of fresh air to see such peace between people from completely different walks of life.

Muslims follow a religion or a belief system, but they are not define by the colour of their skin, their nationality or their race, or even what they do for a living. Much in the same way footballers come together to play in the world cup? what do they all have in common? kicking a ball........

do they enjoy it? im bloody sure they do mate.

Dont worry so much about tackling world happiness, its too big of a task for anyone, or any group.

Especially in 2012

Unhappy Muslims will eventually be happy but not in this life. They have been born into a "gotcha" situation and have no ability to turn it around. We must all go through all experiences in this life and that takes a lot of incarnations. Be cool and don't judge. All is well and always will be .

Originally posted by bobs_uruncle
reply to post by lnfideI

 

I think I'll jiust answer your title, send them to paradise? Seems pretty simple and straightforward because to be honest, the seem to want to be miserable and misery likes company.

Cheers - Dave

Eh. Was in - let's call it a big roundtable discussion partly teleconferenced - where a lot of simulation scenarios were being kicked around. The question was put - "Who can postulate a scenario where we disengage permanently from all Middle Eastern conflicts without giving the appearance of either having lost or abandoning the area, or causing repercussions among our actual allies in the area?"

There was one we brought up. Basically this one, only with some implementation suggestions. It's the hoof-and-mouth cure.

Infidel,

Since Islam is a an evil religion whose central purpose is to dominate the world and destrog christianity, Can you please reference which page and verse in the Quran states this? Surely since so many extremist muslims live by this code it must be written in their holy book along with stoning petty thieves, humiliating women and waging war against non muslims.

Make sure you include page numbers and edition info.

Thanks

reply to post by Bedlam


I am trying to follow what you are saying, I think I am having a brain fart. Are you saying that the round table discussion came up with a similar idea to mine?

When all logical solutions fail, maybe only an illogical solution will prevail. We need to get out of the middle east, period, because we are being attached to the US colonialism/imperialism by association and that's a bad thing. Harper might want to stop the fire-sale on canadian resources as well, since that is what happens when an economy fails, it eats itself and sells off assets to survive.

I doubt anything would help muslims feel less miserable, since they will find that they won't be happy even after they breed us out of our colonies/countries either. But it would certainly elevate our status as a colony, we really don't have to be as bad as our neighbour.

Cheers - Dave

Originally posted by RamsOnTop
Infidel,

Since Islam is a an evil religion whose central purpose is to dominate the world and destrog christianity, Can you please reference which page and verse in the Quran states this? Surely since so many extremist muslims live by this code it must be written in their holy book along with stoning petty thieves, humiliating women and waging war against non muslims.

Make sure you include page numbers and edition info.

Thanks

I have given out those quotes in many threads on ATS and I get the the usual "misinterpretation" or not translated properly excuse. But sure, I can throw a few more out there:

2.39. But those who reject Faith and belie Our Signs, they shall be companions of the Fire; they shall abide therein.

2.161. Those who reject Faith, and die rejecting,- on them is Allah.s curse, and the curse of angels, and of all mankind;

2.190. Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.

2.191. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

3.141. Allah's object also is to purge those that are true in Faith and to deprive of blessing Those that resist Faith.

3.151 Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers!

3.157. And if ye are slain, or die, in the way of Allah, forgiveness and mercy from Allah are far better than all they could amass.

4.34. Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

4.56. Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise.

5.33. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

5.38. As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power.

5.51. O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

reply to post by MidnightTide


Again, please provide page numbers and which edition you are using. That which you provided is probably sourced from a blog.

There are a number of online searchable Qurans, and those quotes are in each one. Hm.

Let's look at one...

reply to post by Bedlam


I dont see any evidence of your claims in the search results other than a bunch of blogs. Libraries have official versions. I challenge you to read the Quran first and then you can formulate your own opinion.

Denying ignorance means getting facts from BOTH sides before choosing which version of truth you believe to be true.

I've seen an interesting idea on this page (Page 2), which may be discussed to some profit. It is the idea that Muslims are just like anyone else, the same things that make us happy would make them happy.

So the solutions would be to promote peace, freedom, education, prosperity.

Making Muslims happy is exactly the same as making anyone else happy.

I suppose that might be correct in some cases, but in many others it is clearly wrong and would never be allowed. Islam is designed to keep its followers from the things that make the rest of the world happy.

Perhaps a bold statement, but Islam is not about freedom, it is about submission, following orders and rules which control even small actions. If a follower has the desire, for whatever reason, to drink, listen to music, go to theaters, dress how they want, criticize whomever they want, go for a walk with a friend (regardless of who the friend is), or any of many other activities, they discover that they are not free to do so.

Education? For women? Or in a non-Muslim school? Or to a school in another country? None of those are easily available to some.

Prosperity? From oil, certainly. For the wealthy, sure. But what efforts are being made to get people into independent businesses? Businesses that might involve women, "forbidden" products like modern clothing, businesses requiring frequent travel to western nations? Are all those encouraged throughout the Muslim world?

Peace? Some Muslims don't like being shot at. Others are proud of their willingness to die, or burn churches, or beat non-believers. Warriors for Allah?

So, my question is, are Muslims and their governments interested in what might make them happy as the rest of the world sees it? Or are they, indeed, a people with very different ideas?

Originally posted by RamsOnTop
reply to post by Bedlam

 

I dont see any evidence of your claims in the search results other than a bunch of blogs. Libraries have official versions. I challenge you to read the Quran first and then you can formulate your own opinion.

Denying ignorance means getting facts from BOTH sides before choosing which version of truth you believe to be true.

Putting your hands over your ears and going "la la la" isn't going to make it go away, you know.

How many references do you need, or are you going to retreat into the "only the Arabic version is truly the Q'uran" defense?

Heck, I'll even have a guy read one to you in Arabic from the "real" Q'uran.

Just click the "play" button!"

I've got lots of others. It's not the sort of thing you can effectively deny.

Example: Al-Ma'idah 5:51 -

The supposed "blog fake":
5.51. O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

In transliterated Arabic:

Transliteration

Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo la tattakhithoo alyahooda waalnnasara awliyaa baAAduhum awliyao baAAdin waman yatawallahum minkum fainnahu minhum inna Allaha la yahdee alqawma alththalimeena

Translation:
O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliya' (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but Auliya' to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as Auliya', then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allah guides not those people who are the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers and unjust).

So, RamsOnTop - on that site is the Arabic form as well as the transliteration. What do YOU say it says, because I've got a dozen translations of it that don't differ a hill of beans. I'll keep tossing new ones at you.

You being worried about what version, here is Al-Ma'idah 5:51 from several:

Sahih International: O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you – then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.

Pickthall: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.

Yusuf Ali: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

Shakir: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

Muhammad Sarwar: Believers, do not consider the Jews and Christians as your intimate friends for they are only friends with each other. Whoever does so will be considered as one of them. God does not guide the unjust people.

Mohsin Khan: O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliya' (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but Auliya' to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as Auliya', then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allah guides not those people who are the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong­doers and unjust).

Arberry: O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Whoso of you makes them his friends is one of them. God guides not the people of the evildoers.

Thus the "blog fake" is revealed to be the Shakir translation, whereas my previous one was Mohsin Khan.

reply to post by charles1952


The quote in your post is mine, so I'll defend it.

Perhaps a bold statement, but Islam is not about freedom, it is about submission,

Islam does indeed mean submission, but it's root is Salam which means peace. The larger philosophy of Islam is essentially the same as other monotheistic religions: if one accepts the belief of a universal God, then they may achieve the highest level of inner peace and spiritual wisdom.

The flaws result in the disproportionate focus on smaller aspects of the Koran. For example, some of the more particular aspects of Sharia which were more political in nature than religious. Beyond preaching about God, Mohammad did also seek to create an empire that lived according to his social values.

Many of these social practices are kept in place by the ruling elite, as you say, basically as a means of control.

But this part of your post can show us the next step in achieving a better quality of life for Muslims in the Middle East:

So, my question is, are Muslims and their governments interested in what might make them happy as the rest of the world sees it? Or are they, indeed, a people with very different ideas?

This is in line with my point. Muslim people are people like any other. What separates them now is their ideology. History is a reason for this, these governments and their populations feel threatened by the West, with reasonable cause. Warfare has done no favors to their economic situation, and a government with a poor population is more at risk for being challenged.

So, I return to my point that economics, freedom, education, etc. are the key to making the Middle Eastern countries happier. More money would mean a more satisfied population, and a lower need to control them with fundamentalist law.

This in itself would expand freedom.

As I mentioned before, there are countries like Qatar and the UAE that are very liberal. Women are educated and equal. As these countries prove their model successful others in the region will follow suit.

We've seen the beginnings of a popular call for a different type of society. The Arab Spring. Sure, the Muslim Brotherhood was elected in Egypt. But an Islam more consistent with Western values is growing in support, and will continue to do so exponentially as long as the West avoids alienating the general populations with continued invasions and interventions.

We can't really say that they don't want freedom, because there hasn't been a peaceful time period in the region where these nations are at liberty to develop authentically without the threat of war.

Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I think these countries have great potential to develop fair and tolerant societies while keeping Islam as their cultural philosophy. They just have to focus more on the larger ideas of the book.

And, I think this is what the general population does for the most part. The call for reform will get louder, and governments will have to concede to demand on issues like women's rights.

We can't really say that they don't want freedom, because there hasn't been a peaceful time period in the region where these nations are at liberty to develop authentically without the threat of war.

reply to post by PatrickGarrow17



This is why I believe it to be a psychological issue. Living like that decade after decade has to do something to your head.