Time to deny ignorance in the Middle East

We should loveI Israel because then we get points and not deleted posts from mods.
I love Israel and its ocupation. of that camel place Palestine.
God save Israel.
Can I have hundreds of stars and flags,

Originally posted by Dr Expired
We should loveI Israel because then we get points and not deleted posts from mods.
I love Israel and its ocupation. of that camel place Palestine.
God save Israel.
Can I have hundreds of stars and flags,

^^ this

reply to post by phishyblankwaters


How do we know this isn't carefully prepared disinformation thread by OP

We DO know, that Israel is very active on the internet with their "information" Just saying.
I've been to Israel, I know how things are done.

reply to post by JewAgainstZionism

How do we know this isn't carefully prepared disinformation thread by OP

Well, one quick way to tell is that you haven't shown any of his information to be false. Which of his main statements are lies?

reply to post by munkey66

Dear munkey66,

I'm sorry, but your answer leaves me even more confused.

Why does Hamas fore rockets?

to get the attention of the world.

Do you really believe Gaza and Hamas don't already have the attention of the world? Really? And what message are they trying to send to the world? "We have precipitated the deaths of over a hundred of our citizens to tell the world . . . ." What? We don't like Israel? Israel is mean and nasty? We should be allowed into the UN because of our peaceful ways? Yes, Iran is supplying us with rockets? What message is worth throwing away the lives of their people?

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


How do you get peoples attention?

people of Haiti are so poor they eat mud pies and no one even glanced sideways until an earthquake hit, they are still poor and no one talks about them now.
another earth quake and they hit the news again.

the reports we get here in Australia talked about the gaza conflict only after Israel attacked and yet the media reported after the cease fire that over 150 people where killed, a majority was palistinian, they didnt even rate a mention or deserve to get a number of innocent women and children.

so why do they make a noise?
to get attention that they are being persecuted

Originally posted by Shuye
reply to post by RizeorDie

 

Is that your claim?

The Arabs are unkind to the poor Palestinians as well, and mostly the leaders of the Arab world are using them to gain popularity among their citizens, while hypocritically closing the borders and turning their face to them (Egypt, Jordan) and prevent the free flow of supply from them by making another siege on the other hand, so they are being forced to use underground tunnels to smuggle things (Egypt).

You got to ask yourself why is that, saying that Israel is an illegal state and doesn't have the right to exist means you reject the EU vote when the majority of the countries voted yes to Israel. The other land taken is perhaps unjustified, but it is for security reasons which I can expand on it if you wish.

Throughout history countries that are now legitimate have been taken by force, just as The U.S or the Great Britain. Do you live in one of these countries? Will you go back to Europe where you belong?

No, so stop being a hypocrite.

I would agree with you if I was Palestinian. Yeah poor Arab nations lost a little piece of land. They are so overwhelmed by Israel...the nerve of you defending yourself against oppression and trying to preserve your illegal occupation of a territory that was awarded to you for years of hatred...I get your message loud and clear...hatred and war go hand and hand; no war is worth the killing of innocent bystanders who have very little control over the outcome. Yeah they should all just pick up and move....oh wait...you did that already...the people in ATS that don't have a clue are the same people responsible for the situation, they are what is wrong with the world...you came in here to present solid information...and I for one appreciate the effort you put forth...do not let these trolls get you upset...they are not the ones living it...I heard some idiot the other day telling people that they should have been better prepared for Sandy...that FEMA should not have to bail anyone out...essentially they deserved what they got for having the nerve to live where they lived...same with Katrina...but holy hell broke lose when 9/11 happened didn't it...we all just jumped right on that band wagon...didn't we....funny how the grass is always a little more easy to burn when the # hits closer to home.

Anyway I have relatives in Israel and I pray for their safety and every other person involved in any war....it's all so useless...but to say Israel started this crap is ridiculous...last week or 100 years ago...you have the right to defend yourself.

Originally posted by Humanity4Ever
Good thread OP.

Don't pay attention to the haters, as they have a preconceived bias, and they are beyond reproach.

Anyone with an open mind can appreciate the message you are trying to convey.

edit on 21-11-2012 by Humanity4Ever because: (no reason given)

I wonder if you'd be so "open minded" if you were on the receiving end of an occupying power.

Originally posted by alfa1

Originally posted by Shuye
Claim 1: Israel fired first (On November 14).

Its a hard and fast rule that people attemting to portray Israel as the good guy always start the timeline in the recent past. *

How about going back to the 1940's?

Yes and we must join together to stop evil Gemany as well! Sigh is all I can say.

Apparently most people have missed the underlined intention of the OP, i'm not here to counter or prove any points here about who's right and who's wrong.

I merely brought an Israeli perspective of the conflict from the war zone, that was so lacking and needed here on ATS, only to bring you the biggest facts of all... There is ANOTHER SIDE of the story. A side that rarely ever gets a fair hearing, but nevertheless deserves it equally.

For those of you who still missed the point and feel like they need to be right about something, please read the #2 post of the thread, down below:

Originally posted by Shuye
I hope I've managed to deny some of the ignorance I kept on seeing on ATS, over and over again. Please don't think that I believe Israel is a martyr, no side is and both sides have their share use of propaganda and evil acts, and believe it or not what you see mostly on the news is not "what is", and there's a bigger war (honestly) going on for your minds and emotions too when it comes to Middle East. And for many people, disinformation and propaganda (for both sides) often works like a charm (Like those of the BBC with the pics from Gaza that are actually from the civil war in Syria). I'm simply trying to see this whole conflict from a higher perspective as much as I can, and not get caught taking a stand even though some people believe I should. And if I don't, i'm doing my best and I acknowledge both sides of the conflict.

Like I said, we are all one and our survival depends on each other and our capabilities to get along. Don't let a few ego freaks who are running the show (Those people with ties on TV) to cause you anymore hatred towards the other side, whatever side you are Pro-with. They will escalate the whole region and even the world to a war but will never think of the population, but only for themselves and their agendas, and how they look to the other egos on the other side. This is how wars by the eager ignorant masses are getting started eventually, and this is what I gently wish to prevent, even at the relatively small stage on ATS.

Just a reminder; it is humanity fighting against humanity, and no opinion is going to change that ugly fact.


Welcome to the Matrix fellas.

Peace.

I hope there's a better understanding of the situation here now. Like I said in the OP, you can only hate what you don't understand. My wish was for the Pro-[Insert-your-side-here) to understand both sides so you could uplift yourself from the pity conflicts and realize we are all one and in this together. It is up to us whether we choose to fight on minor and idiotic issues, or evolve.

Thank you.

Originally posted by Dr Expired
We should loveI Israel because then we get points and not deleted posts from mods.
I love Israel and its ocupation. of that camel place Palestine.
God save Israel.
Can I have hundreds of stars and flags,

Waah, wahh.

As you posted your complaint I expect you were waiting for the mods to remove it to reinforce your fears. It couldn't possibly be because it is an off topic whinge of course. No, no, no. Of course not. Did it never enter your head that there could be members here who are posting with an agenda but they know how to achieve their goal whereas you're just letting frustration get the better of you so your comments are removed? That perhaps they're just smarter and more effective than you?

Or, perhaps the apparent conflict between the suggestion in your post and the absurd manner you choose to air your concerns, demonstrated here by a puzzlingly detrimental childish, public foot stomping, at which so many other A.T.S. members would automatically roll their eyes is not accidental. Could it be things are not quite all they seem and you are purposefully baiting the mods, trying to publicly force their hand in order to publicly discredit those with a certain perspective? Now there's food for thought.

Your observation may just be paranoid fear, as could the explanation I offered here. Yet, if posts of yours have been deleted you could easily explore your paranoia through exercising a little more caution, putting a little more thought into things and avoiding situations like this where your posts could easily be read as off topic rants. If your fears are incorrect that route might also ensure your comments remain available for all to see and you get to air your genuine, heartfelt support for a particular position. That would seem a fortuitous position for you be in and a positive stance to adopt. If your demonstrated position is genuine that is.

OP let me be slightly more clear, the last post was late at night before i went to bed, more awake now.

The issue which no one else has touched upon, i guess because its a touchy subject or something, is the fact that Israel is a Zionist movement, where it not for the Zionist then Israel would not exist.

Now let me be clear, you do not have to be Jewish to be a Zionist just as you do not have to be a Zionist to be Jewish,
Definition of Zionism "The national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel. Has come to include the development of the State of Israel and the protection of the Jewish nation in Israel.".

Now there are Zionists in very strong positions in both US government and Israeli, who would sacrifice every thing for the continuation of the Zionist state at all costs, is this really in the best interest of the Jewish people? You have been brought up being taught that Zionism is Judaism, that the are interwoven and cannot exist without each other, this leads to Extreme nationalism being involved in every aspect of your life, this my friend is why there is a conflict that cannot stop, its just monkeys drawing lines in the sand and insisting on keeping them.

You the have to free yourself from the mental control system that's been inbuilt into you, i am sorry if i offend you, but the only rational reason i can see for 7 people (Israeli's) saying the EXACT same things about Israel and Palestine, then i can only conclude that you have all been spoon feed (this is not a negative term, just pointing to the fact that since early child hood it has been rigorously taught) Zionism.

And now before you start defending Zionism, watch this video :


This is what you Zionist government is doing, they don't want to end the conflict, they like it as it is, they earn money on reconstruction, weapons and defense systems. They have the ability to keep a big military presence in the entire country, they can easily manipulate event in Gaza for political gain. It is an Elitist wet dream, and somehow the fooled the general Jewish population into thinking it is also a good thing for them.


For there to be a fair argument, Zionism and Judaism has to be split up as the ought to be, currently they are interwoven, by elitist design, not for your benefit.

Namaste.

Let me tell you something, OP.

I'm SICK to death of these endless wars. Your wars, our wars (U.S.), and I'm sick of the U.S. giving Israel money when people in my country are struggling just to survive. I don't give a damn about Israel or Gaza. You people can just blow your selves off the map. That is all you guys want is to fight and kill each other. It will never end, you all will never be satisfied until you guys have just blown each other up sky high. I want the U.S. to stay out of the middle east and just let the middle east make their own decisions and do what they are going to do. My country is sinking into hell.... and I'm sick of our $$$$$$$$$$ going to fund endless wars in other countries.

reply to post by Shuye


You want to deny ignorance?

Justify stolen land.

Originally posted by shelookslikeone
reply to post by Shuye

 

You want to deny ignorance?

Justify stolen land.

What country do you live in?

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04

Originally posted by shelookslikeone
reply to post by Shuye

 

You want to deny ignorance?

Justify stolen land.

What country do you live in?

The United States of America.

And I am fully aware of the native population that never claimed to own the land taken. That never fought for the land taken. And that gave up willingly the land taken. The same cannot be said about Palestine.

The same native population that would rather sit on a reserve drunk than even to this day ask or even fight for the land they consider theirs. This is not the same in the least. You want a comparison? Try Turkey. Asks the Greeks how they feel about Istanbul.

There were THREE conquered nation after world war 2. The Brits decided to hand over occupied land. That is FACT.

Originally posted by PatrickGarrow17
Good luck with everything, thanks for posting.

But, there are counter arguments to a lot of what your saying. Mostly along the lines of your focus on very recent history, when this conflict began 60 years ago. It is not unreasonable to call Israel the initial aggressor, to point to their territorial expansion, etc.

Honestly, I don't have a side on this one. I think neither are doing many favors to the cause of a more peaceful world.

Obviously you don't know, like many other people, that Israelis have been in that area for thousands of years. Many Palestinians have also been in that area for thousands of years, and throughout that time both sides, and others have fought for control of that area.

Most of the Middle East was not controlled by Muslims before the 7th century A.D, it was because of Muhammed/Muhammad/Abū al-Qāsim Muḥammad ibn ʿAbd Allāh ibn ʿAbd al-Muṭṭalib ibn Hāshim, who unified Arabia and converted the region, as well as Arabs and many other ethnic people who have lived in that area for thousands of years, mostly by force into Islam.

The Middle East was known as a land of many ethnic races which had built empires and lived in the area also for thousands of years. Early Arabs were mostly nomads.

Despite what most Muslims will tell you, Islam spreads by any means including force, and their goal is to not only unify all of the Middle East and spread islam, but to unify the world under a caliphate while spreading Islam by all means necessary.

Not all Muslims subscribe, or want this goal, however, it is pretty much what their prophet Mohammed wanted and asked his followers to do.

In general Muslims see all land that they have conquered, even if they lost it, as Muslim lands, such as Andalusia aka Al-Andalus in Spain, which to this day they believe is rightfully theirs as well as other countries/lands which they conquered centuries ago but lost.

March 15th by Robin PhillipsComments Off
Posted in Articles, Featured, Persecuted Church


“We were expelled (from Spain) as Moriscos in 1609, really not that long ago. … The echo of Al-Andalus still resonates in all the valley of the Ebro (ie Spain). We are back to stay, Insha’Allah.” – from a flier published by the Islamic Community of Bilbao

“How quickly is Europe being Islamized? So quickly that even historian Bernard Lewis, who has continued throughout his honor-filled career to be disingenuous about Islamic radicalism and terrorism, forthrightly told the German newspaper Die Welt: ‘Europe will be Islamic by the end of the century.’” -Robert Spencer
...

atgsociety.com...

In the same manner as a general rule they see Israel as part of Muslim lands, and do not want for the state of Israel to exist AT ALL.

Jewish people, and Israelis do not have any other land. Many have become citizens in other countries, but have no other land except Israel, meanwhile Muslims possess what, 96% - 99% of the Middle East?

Yes, it is true that there are Muslims who want peace, and do not want to follow the radical old ways of Muhammed. Many of those Muslims are murdered by radical Muslims.

However, those who are true to their religion will seek any, and every way to reach the goal that Muhammed gave them in the 7th century A.D.

Because Jewish/Israelis do not have any other land, and they can trace their ancestors living in Israel thousands of years ago, they do not want to give away what they see as their land.

Both sides have committed atrocities throughout the centuries, but you should ask yourself. Why should Jewish people/Israelis who want to live in their ancestral lands leave when Muslims own already most of the Middle East?

I know many members will not agree with me, and would even claim that "for peace Israelis should leave"... most of them would not even consider that Palestinians should be the ones to leave Israelis in peace in their land of Israel...

I have to wonder what those same people would say, and do if it was THEIR ANCESTRAL LANDS that some opposite side wanted to take by any means necessary...

reply to post by Shuye

Both sides are being played, when are we going to wake up from this matrix,? this much hate this much war, i only question my self is this God,s plan ?

Originally posted by RizeorDie
OP next time use the search engine, dozens before you have attempted to justify the crimes of Israel and failed.

Israel is an illegal state on land which does not belong it, so whatever happens on that land they have it coming. an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth is more than an old jewish say, its a reality and the Israelites seem to overlook it.

Actually, you are the one failing... It is obvious that you want to dismiss, and even ignore the centuries of atrocities committed by Muslims... Not to mention the fact that you are ignorant as to the history of Jewish people in what is now known as Israel...

Unlike you "RizeorDie" I have done a lot of research on the subject, and I know that Jewish people have a RIGHT to be there...

There are many members who claim that the Jewish people do not belong to this area, when obviously those who claim this are only ignorant and rely on the propaganda from the Palestinian terrorists but they are never able to provide evidence for their claims, except edited videos of course.

Origins

According to their tradition, the Jewish people originated from the Israelites of the Southern Levant, who had several independent states before being overtaken first by the Assyrian and Babylonian Empires and later the Roman Empire, with a large portion of the population being scattered throughout the world. According to the Hebrew Bible, all Israelites were descended from Abraham, who was born in the Sumerian city of Ur, and migrated to Canaan (commonly known as the Land of Israel) with his family. Genetic studies on Jews show that most Jews worldwide do indeed bear a common genetic heritage which originates in the Middle East, and that they bear their strongest resemblance to the peoples of the Fertile Crescent, with only minor contribution from their host populations[17] (historically due to the taboo on intermarriage in Jewish tradition, the low number of converts to Judaism, as well as the general isolations and persecutions of Jews throughout history). According to some Biblical archaeologists, however, Israelite culture did not overtake the region, but rather grew out of Canaanite culture.

en.wikipedia.org...

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/354cab650b94.png[/atsimg]

The Levant is defined as the geographical region bordering the Mediterranean, roughly between Egypt and Anatolia (modern Turkey). The Southern Levant is roughly encompassed by Palestine, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, along with the the modern sovereign states of Israel, Jordan and the southern part of Lebanon. The Greek term for the area - Coele-Syria[1] - was described as stretching from the Beqaa Valley of Lebanon to cover the entire area south of the river Eleutherus including Judea. The historian Diodorus Siculus indicates Coelo-Syria to also include the Palestinian coasts as far south as Joppa. These terms are used by archaeologists and residents of the region who wish to avoid taking a modern geo-political stance in a region rife with border disputes.

en.wikipedia.org...

Let's read that again...

...
Genetic studies on Jews show that most Jews worldwide do indeed bear a common genetic heritage which originates in the Middle East, and that they bear their strongest resemblance to the peoples of the Fertile Crescent,...

Excerpted from above link.

One of my most recent threads on this subject, with plenty of evidence in favor of my argument can be found HERE

Palestinians, and Israelis in general should both learn to live in peace with each other, but unfortunately I doubt that will happen.

Originally posted by WiseThinker

Now there are Zionists in very strong positions in both US government and Israeli, who would sacrifice every thing for the continuation of the Zionist state at all costs, is this really in the best interest of the Jewish people? You have been brought up being taught that Zionism is Judaism, that the are interwoven and cannot exist without each other, this leads to Extreme nationalism being involved in every aspect of your life, this my friend is why there is a conflict that cannot stop, its just monkeys drawing lines in the sand and insisting on keeping them.

Sorry, WiseThinker, but I don't think you understand the Jewish or Muslim religion enough to know what's truly going on over there.

The truth is, if Israel doesn't draw lines in the sand and protect itself, the Jews will be wiped out entirely by the Muslims. This is their goal and it's part of their religion (that's the extremist's interpretation anyway). The question you have to ask yourself is how safe is the Middle East if extremists take over the entire region? As we slowly see the Middle East being taken over by the Muslim Brotherhood, what do you think that means for all of the other Arab countries in the region? Syria is a prime example.

So, when you talk about non-Jewish Zionists, to some degree you're talking about people who are concerned about the region as a whole. But yes, I agree that each Zionist probably has different goals and ideas regarding the final outcome.

This is what you Zionist government is doing, they don't want to end the conflict, they like it as it is, they earn money on reconstruction, weapons and defense systems. They have the ability to keep a big military presence in the entire country, they can easily manipulate event in Gaza for political gain. It is an Elitist wet dream, and somehow the fooled the general Jewish population into thinking it is also a good thing for them.

For some Zionists this is the case, but it is absolutely no different for those who choose the side of "Palestine". Most all of the Arab countries are benefiting and receiving money to deal with this crisis in order to protect themselves from the extremists and take in refugees, not to mention all the money they're making off of smuggling arms and weapons to each other.

Go back and read my post on Jordan. The Arab League has accused most of the Arab countries in the region of treating Palestinian refugees poorly and using them as a tool for their own political gain.

For there to be a fair argument, Zionism and Judaism has to be split up as the ought to be, currently they are interwoven, by elitist design, not for your benefit.

In all honesty, you can't separate the two entirely. You can only judge each person and nation's stance on the subject. According to the Torah, God gave the Jews that land and promised them a time where they would be able to live in it peacefully. They are fighting to keep the land until God sends someone to help them live in it peacefully. Regardless of whether you think the Jews are doing themselves a favor or not by doing this doesn't matter.

The truth of the matter is, regardless of what any of us think about the situation, the Bible says that only God can correct it and whether or not you even believe in God, I doubt that any of you are going deny the fact that this is a crisis that man is never going to be able to control or get a handle on....ever!