Time to deny ignorance in the Middle East

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posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 11:51 AM
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Originally posted by RizeorDie

Originally posted by maloy

Originally posted by RizeorDie
Israel is an illegal state on land which does not belong it


The US is also an illegal state. It belongs to native Americans! Name me any country, and I will tell you why in someone's world it is an illegal state.

And what may I inquire constitutes a "legal" state. In fact what is a "legal" state? Legal according to whom? To you? Well sorry to tell you, but Israel doesn't even know you exist, let alone give a **** about what you consider to be legal.
edit on 21-11-2012 by maloy because: (no reason given)


Seeing that you live in lalaland I'll have to drop to your level of thinking and answer you in a way that you may understand.

Lets assume for a minute that your house belonged to my grandfather a few decades ago..

So I come over to your house tomorrow with my friends and guns and overwhelm you and your family thus taking over the entire house. I will then drag you all to one room and force you to stay there, I will restrict your access to the toilet and kitchen, I will not allow you to leave and its up to me whether you can have visitors. Under such circumstances you will rebel, but your no match for me, I quickly punch you up and choke slam you just to show you where I stand. If i ever suspect you of anything then I'll just walk into your room and turn it upside down looking for a shank/knife that i thought you had. I do this from time to time just to keep you in check.

I bet in that instance you would say that I'm the 'Illegal Occupier',

but then I'll say according to who, you? well sorry to say but you are nobody, go back to your room before i knock your other tooth out..

do you see what i'm saying?

in other words i'm Israel and you are Palestine...

Israel is an illegal state
edit on 21/11/2012 by RizeorDie because: (no reason given)


Then I show up. I have the original deed to the house, and I built it. I was forcefully, and illegally removed, from the house by outsiders. Your grandfather was a guest there, but the moment I was forced out, force that he didn't help me overcome, he took over the house and pretended it was his from the beginning. Now I'm back to take what was originally mine and stolen from me.

I'm Israel and your grandfather is this "Palestine".

See how that works?

/TOA




posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 12:52 PM
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reply to post by Shuye
 





How many people here actually knows that for weeks and months prior to the Israeli attack, rockets have been fired towards Israel? Since the Palestinians are the victims here, you would never hear about it. Why? Since no one gives a damn about rockets being fired at Israel, besides it doesn't fit the story most of you already know from the media about the Middle East, which is how the MSM perpetuates the conflict. When Israel reply though, they call them "aggressors" and it hits all over the world news. I'm not here to explain why is that, but only to deny that false belief:


Sorry, gotta stop you there, you are clearly insane.



it doesn't fit the story most of you already know from the media about the Middle East, which is how the MSM perpetuates the conflict.


What msm is that? Is it cnn who portrays Israel as the victim regardless of the story? Maybe it's fox news, no, probably nbc, maybe you are stretching and thinking of RT...

But clearly you are insane to think that the media here, in the west, is portraying Israel as the aggressor. Is this what the ISraeli media is saying? It's quite the opposite. Now, what I am seeing, is the media being a little more comfortable asking questions as to if the response is proportionate. But not MSM in the west is portraying Israel as anything but a perpetual victim.

That said... I applaud your effort here, and being willing to share your story and opinions, knowing the type of response you can expect here. I truly wish nothing but good will to you and hope both sides can find a way to end all of this insanity before any more senseless deaths.

but seriously, what MSM are you watching? I'm baffled by that statement.

It reminds me of a period when I was goofing around on chatroulette and ended up meeting a group of people from Israel. We didn't talk long, but they did seem nice. They asked me where I was from, told me they were from ISrael and when I told them I was canadian their response was

"So you hate Jews then"

? i don't hate anyone, and if I do, it's based on the quality of their character, not their religion, race, or country.



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 12:54 PM
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reply to post by The Old American
 





Then I show up. I have the original deed to the house, and I built it. I was forcefully, and illegally removed, from the house by outsiders. Your grandfather was a guest there, but the moment I was forced out, force that he didn't help me overcome, he took over the house and pretended it was his from the beginning. Now I'm back to take what was originally mine and stolen from me.


don't you mean you show up with a work of fiction perporting to be true but appears to be, on the whole, factually inaccurate, and that's your only actual claim to the house?

Cause that's closer to the actual situation. And, of course, it's meaningless. Both people are fully dug in where they are, and aren't going to budge, so it's time to stop dreaming of one side just evaporating.



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 01:09 PM
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Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
reply to post by The Old American
 





Then I show up. I have the original deed to the house, and I built it. I was forcefully, and illegally removed, from the house by outsiders. Your grandfather was a guest there, but the moment I was forced out, force that he didn't help me overcome, he took over the house and pretended it was his from the beginning. Now I'm back to take what was originally mine and stolen from me.


don't you mean you show up with a work of fiction perporting to be true but appears to be, on the whole, factually inaccurate, and that's your only actual claim to the house?

Cause that's closer to the actual situation. And, of course, it's meaningless. Both people are fully dug in where they are, and aren't going to budge, so it's time to stop dreaming of one side just evaporating.


I'm sorry that the historical, archaeological, and anthropological evidence all support that the area we call Israel today was the home of the Hebrews, and that the so-called "Palestinians" of today are of Arab, Syrian, Lebanese, and Egyptian descent and have no ancestral claim on the land. It must be frustrating to know the truth, but not able to speak it for fear of being ostracized by the anti-Israel community that thrives here on ATS. Luckily, there are people like me here to tell the actual truth of the region, and not some fairy tale. We're not afraid of sticking our neck out to reveal it.

I could, however, go back farther, if you like. Before the Hebrews arrived, it was the home of the Canaanites. But, alas, they are no more, and there are no ancestors of the Canaanites left to claim the land. So, we can only go back to the inhabitants that can still lay claim to it. Which they have.

BTW: it was your "both sides are wrong!" type of comment that gave you away. In my experience, a person that says that knows that "their side" is wrong, but can't, for whatever pathetic peer-pressure reason, say it out loud.

/TOA



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 01:13 PM
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If any of you people would care to educate yourselves and learn about the conflict and issues, instead of labeling each-other propagandists or any sort of cliché ATS label, this type of thread wouldn't need to exist inside ATS.

But everyone is interested in continuing the hate that exists in that region. Everyone, with no exception.

"Propaganda this", "propaganda that"...

Really? You people think that every poster in here is portraying propaganda? That everyone is paid to come to a forum, that is already highly discredited in the media, to convince you of other realities?

People already do that with their free will. Everyone makes up their opinion, chooses a side, and then pick up their internet warrior keyboards and start fights just because they feel the need to defend something they are not even associated with.

Why? Because if most of you - from either side of the argument - would dare to do some inner inspection to what you do and your place - and responsibility - in this Earth, you would all be shocked to how much you contribute to the suffering that you so highly complain about.

Heck, just the other day - I like chocolate, like most people (it'll matter latter in this sentence) - I was reading an article called "The bitter taste of chocolate", and it addressed the colossal number of people working in inhumane ways just to provide everyone in the Western world with something as mundane as chocolate.

And guess what? Every single time you eat some chocolate, the money you spent on it, is contributing to the ongoing suffering of people. And that is true for chocolate and thousands of other products.

But I don't see any of you saying in your posts "I'm pointing the finger at you, but I'm aware of the suffering I cause".

No.

You guys put yourselves above others and then judge and criticize people you don't even know, or what they have been through to think like that.

Opinions based on experiences and situations you can't even start to imagine the real consequences they have on real people. Arguments and points who are so filled with ignorance that you don't even - in your clear conscience - dare to think that the things you say in loud voice, are actually hurting more people, because with more ignorance, comes more darkness of information, and within that darkness of information, the same governments that you are so eager to demonize, act without punishment, consequence or even knowledge.

You think you are so smart for pointing out in your posts that "this guy is spreading propaganda" that you are so dumbly oblivious of how disinformation actually works.

Disinformation isn't about spreading false information. Disinformation is about spreading the seeds of discussion, and then pointing it in directions where people will pick sides on their own. After that, it's just sitting back and watching all the near-sighted morons fight with each-other, pulling articles and information from stupid conspiracy sites that have no other objective than making money from your fears and ignorance.

You want to fight for a better world in these types of discussion and forums? Don't pick a side.

If someone provides information, question it.
If you know someone is wrong, provide better information.
If someone disagrees with you, talk it through without thinking you know more than the following member.

And the most important part of it all: be kind and humble.

There is a very important lesson in History, and that is that before you know it, your community, ideology or group could come under attack, and then it will be up for the people you accuse today to defend you and provide information that helps you and the ones you love.

I would have guessed that throwing stones is a thing of medieval times, but I see it happening everyday here in ATS.

And kids, this applies to all sides of arguments constantly going on here in ATS, so don't put yourselves above any other person or opinion.


ETA:

Link for that article about chocolate, for those who were curious about it.
edit on 22-11-2012 by GarrusVasNormandy because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 01:33 PM
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reply to post by Deetermined
 




Other then Jordan, they are unwilling to give refugees citizenship.

Why?

edit on 22-11-2012 by sonnny1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 01:59 PM
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reply to post by Shuye
 


It's always good to hear the different perspectives on these matters. May I ask if you were born in Israel op?



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 02:27 PM
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Originally posted by sonnny1
reply to post by Deetermined
 




Other then Jordan, they are unwilling to give refugees citizenship.

Why?

edit on 22-11-2012 by sonnny1 because: (no reason given)


Because most of the Arab countries have a majority of Muslims that don't want them and are using them to create conflict in the Middle East with Israel. There's a religious agenda behind the Muslim countries wanting to get rid of Israel and the Jews.

Here's a link that I think could answer a lot of questions for people on that "agenda".


10 Facts About The Arab-Israeli Conflict

Fact #1: Jews have been living in Israel continuously for over 3,000 years
Fact #2: One quarter of Israeli citizens are not Jewish
Fact #3: Israel has repeatedly accepted the two state solution
Fact #4: The Arab-Israeli conflict is not about the occupation - it's about the existence of Israel
Fact #5: Arab violence against civilians began long before the occupation
Fact #6: Palestinian leadership actively supported the Nazis during WWII
Fact #7: Arab leaders have been abusing the Palestinians for political gain since the beginning of the conflict

Fact #8: Palestinian children are being brainwashed into hate, martyrdom and genocide
Fact #9: Palestinians are treated differently than all other refugees
Fact #10: Israel is treated differently than all other countries


arabisraeliconflict.info...

edit on 22-11-2012 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 02:36 PM
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post removed because the user has no concept of manners

Click here for more information.



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 02:43 PM
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Originally posted by infowarrior9970
written by the hands of the IDF media spokesperson AND shared by delusional Israeli voters


As opposed to garbage written by pro-Arab media spokesperson and shared by delusional Hamas sympathizers? Almost everyone that writes anything political in nature has an agenda of some sort.



Originally posted by infowarrior9970
who refuse to see the TRUE actions of their psychotic leaders.


And you are probably the person who sees the TRUE actions? Right?



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 02:46 PM
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reply to post by Shuye
 


Sorry... your OP IS very one sided... you supposedly living in Israel, doesn't exclude you from being a liar wearing neutral clothes. I think your posts are very Pro-Israel and I chose not to believe your authenticity about the statements you've made.

Why?

Because I don't think it's entirely possible to get a neutral perspective from anyone residing in that area, regardless of side. And to be honest... jews are very good at painting the martyr image on themselves. As late as this night, I saw a program about judaism in Copenhagen, and I'll be damned.... another martyr have to remind us about all the terrible things that happend to those supposedly 6 million jews that were killed during the war.... along with 70 million other people that don't seem to be getting that much attention OR what I think is more plausible: They have gotten over it, unlike the jews and zionists.

So thank you for trying... but no thanks.



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 03:35 PM
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reply to post by RizeorDie
 


Why would they be illegally in there when there are not such a thing as Palestine or Palestinians?
Palestinians are a myth.. says Hamas minister of Interior and national security



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 04:54 PM
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Originally posted by RizeorDie

Originally posted by maloy

Originally posted by RizeorDie
Israel is an illegal state on land which does not belong it


The US is also an illegal state. It belongs to native Americans! Name me any country, and I will tell you why in someone's world it is an illegal state.

And what may I inquire constitutes a "legal" state. In fact what is a "legal" state? Legal according to whom? To you? Well sorry to tell you, but Israel doesn't even know you exist, let alone give a **** about what you consider to be legal.
edit on 21-11-2012 by maloy because: (no reason given)


Seeing that you live in lalaland I'll have to drop to your level of thinking and answer you in a way that you may understand.

Lets assume for a minute that your house belonged to my grandfather a few decades ago..

So I come over to your house tomorrow with my friends and guns and overwhelm you and your family thus taking over the entire house. I will then drag you all to one room and force you to stay there, I will restrict your access to the toilet and kitchen, I will not allow you to leave and its up to me whether you can have visitors. Under such circumstances you will rebel, but your no match for me, I quickly punch you up and choke slam you just to show you where I stand. If i ever suspect you of anything then I'll just walk into your room and turn it upside down looking for a shank/knife that i thought you had. I do this from time to time just to keep you in check.

I bet in that instance you would say that I'm the 'Illegal Occupier',

but then I'll say according to who, you? well sorry to say but you are nobody, go back to your room before i knock your other tooth out..

do you see what i'm saying?

in other words i'm Israel and you are Palestine...

Israel is an illegal state
edit on 21/11/2012 by RizeorDie because: (no reason given)


That's not a bad analogy, but it's a bit naive. You have bought the lie that the arabs owned that land when in fact a majority immigrated there after 1947 and became pawns to stir up tensions in the middle east and give the muslim world an easy target thus allowing the west to get involved and ultimately it's about world power and control.

Name one country that hasn't had borders change due to wars? Just one.

You can't and the fact is, Jews have lived in that land, developed that land, ruled a much larger region for ages, and due to Rome they got kicked out and supposedly their nation died. The culture of Israel, religion, race of Judah and Levi have maintained their heritage. The other tribes of Jacob (Israel) lost their identity and while they can be traced, they have no claims as they assimilated into other cultures.

Arabs and Jews lived in the land regardless of having a Jewish government in that area since 70 a.d. when Rome destroyed Israel. Throughout the time of Judah's wanderings they have been persecuted. It's easy to blame the outsider for your countries problems. We still do it today. It's the immigrants, it's the asians, it's the Mexicans, it's the Jews, it's the muslims when in fact it is our own fault if our communities fall into moral and economic decay. People take bribes and sell us out, and guess what?

The people rise up and war against their oppressors and the losers get punished and the victors control the storyline of what happened. I know most people read and op and one or two replies then make their reply so you might not have read any of mine before, but I have talked about the history of this region on every Israel (pro or con) thread that comes up. It's obvious that most don't read the what I write in totality, and I am verbose often. They don't watch videos. Their minds made up and logic will not be tolerated.

If you study the history of the region, the Jews have just as much claim to the land they are on as the Arabs do and in 1917 when the Turkish Ottoman empire fell the league of Nations created four countries and gave three to Arabs and one to the Jews. They were Lebanon, Syria, Jordan (trans-Jordan originally) and Israel. The Arabs got 80% of the land and Israel barely got enough to even call it a country. It's the size of New Jersey for God's sake, and yet they survived being attacked immediately by their Arab neighbors, and then another war which they shoudl have lost but didn't. They have lived under constant attack, and the Arabs have been offered even more land to settle this, but they turn it down.

It's not about stealing land. It's about Arab hatred of Jews which goes back to Ishmael feeling cheated. The only thing that will make Arabs happy nationally is for Israel to be destroyed and all the Jews with it.



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 05:16 PM
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reply to post by dollukka
 


Great video, and it proves my point that the vast majority of the so called displaced Arabs Israel moved their from Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Yemen etc after 1948. They know this fact very well. When the Arabs were going to launch the war against Israel in the 6 day war they told all the Arabs to leave their homes so the attackers could just slaughter everyone and not worry that they might be killing their fellow Arabs. Those Arabs who did not flee are full citizens of Israel and kept their homes. Those Arabs who fled lost their homes and none of their brothers in Egypt or the other countries would give them a new place to live except Jordan.

The refugee issue is false. They are just pawns used to make the world feel sorry for them, point the finger at Israel, and foster hatred in Arab children towards the Jews.



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 06:43 PM
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Basic background:

I have attended international high school and there were quite a few Israelis whom i made sure to get their opinion on the matter from.

Now from this i can tell you that the OP stance is exactly point for point what all but one of them said;

You think we started the shooting ? - Point to a missile a day before
You think we want more land? - Points out that its apparently for security
I am Pro-life - Point to leaflets
and they always end up with this speech
"You think we are causing terror ? yesterday ( or some other close date) X family member had to run to a shelter, and i know what that feels like, and i know kids who have to run like that every day from early childhood"


All i can say is that they are towing a party line knowingly or not.

OP, i appreciate that you are Jewish, but PLEASE i implore you, do not confuse that with Zionism.
At the moment you are preaching the Zionist gospel which is not necessarily in the Jewish populations best interests.



And just to clear your confusion, the recent surge in missile attacks from Hamas is not unprovoked (im not saying its justified), but you did make the first move (not shot) with the big land grab done by the Israeli government, the Hamas attacks was blow back from that failed Zionist expansionist policy.

Namaste.



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 07:20 PM
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Does anyone see the irony in how alot of Americans on ATS view Israel in a totally negative light but yet claim that they are only speaking bad about the government and not the people themselves? THIS very real first hand account shows just how insensitive anti Israel comments and rhetoric impacts people just like you or me.

How does the American poster feel when someone from another comes along and bashes our country? I remember a number of members (most since banned) starting thread after thread about how the American government is evil and all you hypocrites would pound on the guy. I would love to be able to name names but know I would it's against the terms and conditions to talk about other members!

Thanks OP for a very enlightening thread! Hopefully it will sink in to some heads how it feels to have to defend your country when its not all black and white and to remind us how media has and always will bend the truth to sensationalize news for whatever reason so that the WHOLE truth is not layed out in an unbiased fashion.

To the OP: I am very sorry for what you went through the last week. I cannot imagine the stress it caused and how the awful sirens must haunt you still in your sleep.



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 07:44 PM
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reply to post by Shuye
 


Sorry to hear you have to live in such close proximity to this conflict OP.

I can't speak for others, but I'm well aware both sides are victims in this set up, that is 'the people' on boths sides of this conflict who are the victims.

However, one only has to look at the death tolls during each conflict to see that Israel uses excessive force, whether in retaliation or as the aggressor. What the Israeli airforce launches into Gaza is 100 times worse than what Hamas fires into Israel. I'm not agreeing with Hamas firing rockets, but this isn't a fair contest.

Israel has the most advanced air force in the region, it has the Iron Dome defense system, what do the Palestinians have to protect them- nothing.

You said yourself your building was built to withstand attacks, the same cannot be said for those living in Gaza.

It's a sick designed conflict that is destined to continue until the surrounding Muslim nations take action which will lead to an escalation in conflicts and it is the people on both sides who are victims of this agenda.



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 09:11 PM
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reply to post by Shuye
 

Doesn't matter.The European Jews are descendants of the Khazars.Their homeland is the Russian steppes.Until they return,there will be no peace.The rest of Europe already came to the conclusion that they must go,so they ended up there in Palestine.Israel must be dismantled and the land returned from the invaders.This time there will be no trains to take them home.They can do this the easy way or the hard way.



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 09:37 PM
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reply to post by Wonderer2012
 

I'm not willing to attempt to untangle the anger in this thread over such a broad issue, may I start with a smaller one?

What the Israeli airforce launches into Gaza is 100 times worse than what Hamas fires into Israel. I'm not agreeing with Hamas firing rockets, but this isn't a fair contest.

Israel has the most advanced air force in the region, it has the Iron Dome defense system, what do the Palestinians have to protect them- nothing.

You said yourself your building was built to withstand attacks, the same cannot be said for those living in Gaza.
Given all that, and I'll assume it's all true, why in the world did Hamas pick this fight? What kind of government says "we're going to kick the giant in the shins, and we we get attacked back, the people will just have to suffer?" I don't get it, I don't approve of suicide missions. What was their thinking? If a dozen guys assault me with weapons, you bet I'm just going to take it.



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 10:31 PM
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Originally posted by charles1952
Given all that, and I'll assume it's all true, why in the world did Hamas pick this fight? What kind of government says "we're going to kick the giant in the shins, and we we get attacked back, the people will just have to suffer?" I don't get it, I don't approve of suicide missions. What was their thinking? If a dozen guys assault me with weapons, you bet I'm just going to take it.


why does a canary whistle?

to get attention from a female canary.

Why does a peacock have a huge bright tail?

to get the attention of the peahen.

Why does Hamas fore rockets?

to get the attention of the world.

A canary in a cage will still whistle even when there is no female present and a peacock will still grow his tail even when isolated, Hamas do the same being locked up in a cage, they still try to be heard when the rest of the world is focused on American Idol or Lady Gagas new meat dress.
they do not fire rockets for the giggles and fun, it is an attempt to be heard.

many people in the west do not give Gaza a second thought until Israel strikes out or back.





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