Hostess, maker of Twinkies and Ding Dongs, says closing business

Originally posted by steve1709

Originally posted by FreebirdGirl

Originally posted by steve1709
Let me get this right. A bunch of union groupies refuse to work for this company over a few bucks more a week, to the point that they cause the company to go broke and in doing so lose the jobs of everybody that works there. So due to them wanting a bit more in their pay packet, they have now caused people to have no pay packet at all. Wow, how smart are they. I don't usually back the boss but in this case it looks like the tough guy union pr1cks have pushed that little bit too hard. I wonder how many of those union rep freaks have no job now, or have they simply moved on to another shop floor to do it all over again. Yea for the union reps. Bet they are still pulling in weekly money from "union funds" Isn't there a fiction book called Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand that where the unions do something similar so the owner of the company burns his business to the ground. Sorry for the families that will do xmas tough but for the actual blokes who went on strike for the extra few bucks, I can't help thinking that in many cases, it serves them right.

Come on. Is there a book called Atlas Shrugged? Look under your pillowcase. Remember it's where your bible used to be.

Yep, there is, and there's even google or yahoo search to help people find it here ya go : en.wikipedia.org...

[OFF SITE INFO]
"The book explores a dystopian United States where many of society's most productive citizens refuse to be exploited by increasing taxation and government regulations and go on strike. The refusal evokes the imagery of what would happen if the mythological Atlas refused to continue to hold up the world. They are led by John Galt. Galt describes the strike as "stopping the motor of the world" by withdrawing the minds that drive society's growth and productivity. In their efforts, these people "of the mind" hope to demonstrate that a world in which the individual is not free to create is doomed, that civilization cannot exist where every person is a slave to society and government, and that the destruction of the profit motive leads to the collapse of society. "

................................. ah what's the use, it's probably a little too deep for you anyway.

Why do I keep thinking "silly little girl"?

Unions and other victim organisations have a lot to answer for. Take paid parental leave for example

They kicked up a fuss until women could take time off "on full pay" to have a kid and bring it up for a few months then be able to waltz back into their job. The employer had to pick up the bill for her pay PLUS pay someone else to take her place while she is on leave (also have to put up with training this new person) that now means 2 wage expenses for the one position. THEN they have to guarantee the woman's position when she wants to come back to work (and be patient once she is back until her skill level is back up to speed). So the employer decides that maybe it will be better to NOT employ people full time but to take people on just for the time needed. Hmmmm says the employer, that saves me all of the hassles with potential future pregnant women. Maybe it will work elsewhere. So the employer then starts to dramatically reduce full time work force. No more sick leave, no more holiday pay, no more 17 1/2 % loading on christmas pay. Wow, this casual work force is a great thing he thinks. NOW the average Joe Blow can't get full time work, can't get a house loan because he DOESN'T HAVE FULL TIME WORK>

Wow, unions, victim groups and the like have really "helped" the average bloke haven't they. Wake up!

Do I like money hungry employers? NO!
Do I like whiging whining employees? NO!

Do I like people? NO! but other animals are pretty kool.

Now people are horking Ayn Rand?

Who really "holds up the world?" Is it the suits upstairs, or the folks running the machinery, driving the trucks, etc? I say both are equally important. Someone has to buy the machines and the trucks, start the companies, and make the deals. Someone also has to use the machines, drive and build the trucks, make the products, and things like that.

Civilization also cannot exist if people are slaves to corporations and the ultra wealthy. Russia circa 1917, France at the end of the 18th century, China, Vietnam, Korea. Nobody really wants to end up like that either.

Originally posted by NihilistSanta
reply to post by FreebirdGirl

 

8 years of wage stagnation. I wasn't aware that because you do the job you are hired to do you are entitled to more than was agreed upon.

You and I must have differing opinions on what is skilled labor and what is not. Basically if you watch a 30 min safety vid and get one day of training its not skilled labor.

My personal finance , education level etc are irrelevant. As humans we are all entitled to certain rights and fairness should be strived for but business isn't about being fair. It is about profit. As long as the employees are not threatened, forced to do things that are unsafe or unconscionable and are compensated then there is no need for a union. A union is gang mentality.

Is management unfair sure but they don't have to be "fair" and you are free to leave if you have a problem. If the company had stagnated wages and conditions were so bad why didn't they change jobs? They have known since 04? I guess they couldn't find another overpaid button pushing job with benefits and might have to actually compete in the labor pool.

edit on 17-11-2012 by NihilistSanta because: (no reason given)

No we do not have different opinions of skilled . I gave you the legal as well as business definition of skilled workers.It's not my fault that you probably fall in the same category as the ones you despise. As far as you not wanting to divulge your career I imagine that you must work in a bakery since you are educated on the work that they do.

You surely can't be a manager or business owner. If you are I suggest you read Stephen Covey follow his principles or have money set aside for legal fees. The law dictates that managers and owners are fair. If you hire someone and tell them that will receive an annual or semi annual raise based on performance or tenure you better live up to the deal or will find yourself in court. I have worked in management over twenty years. Do you know how many seminars we have to attend to make sure that we "treat employees fairly"? Once a quarter. So yes employees are to be treated fair.

You also seem angry at those who "push buttons for a living. Does this logic only apply to industrial food service workers or would computer programmers,train operators and pilots also apply to your belief that button pushers should not make a decent wage?

We can agree to disagree about unions. I am not in a union but I am sure like all things people are people. Some are good some bad. So the same would apply to union reps.With that in mind according to the conditions you gave in which a union would be neccessary, who will guarantee that these measures are enforced? You don't want the goverment involved so who will assure these standards are met, the employer?

There could be numerous reasons why the employees stayed with Hostess:

- Company loyalty
- Time Invested
- Lack of jobs
- Love of job

I am sure everyone did not have the same reason for staying. Since I do not know any one there personally I will not speculate on their reasons for staying. Neither do I feel it's my place to judge them.

reply to post by FreebirdGirl


If we agreed then why feel the need to post the definition? Anyways I wont address the personal attacks and speculation but suffice it to say that I don't hate anyone but I do disagree with unions. I think class warfare is being sowed in this country as a divisive measure and one to neutralize any serious opposition to the globalist plans.

I don't think open war with TPTB will be as realistic as people think. The globalist will just make life so bad people will beg for the NWO solution they want. Its that simple. All of the self aggrandizing , spoiled, dumbed down, haters of god and humanity will do the leg work for them while everyone is starved into compliance.

The problem is not enough people are awake to this and the ones that are awakening are being co-opted into some type of pre-socialist revolution built on a skewed perception of class struggle in this country. When the bankers do pull the plug and crash everything instead of rounding up the ones responsible people will be trashing the doctors house down the street.

reply to post by sonnny1


I am not saddened by this. The market is now open for someone to pick it up. I am excited to see who picks up the mantle of hostess.

change is good unless you are afraid of change and want to cling to the old ways that hinder and stifle innovation.

HOstess was a dinosaur it failed and it didn't get bailed out by the laborer. (the banks had us bail them out and they are dicking us over)

why is it that we tend to elevate things to a point where we do not want to see it fail and fear change??

The attitude some people have towards this news tells me exactly why people always end up enslaved.. because they give up opportunity for security... and they put their security in the hands of a few.

eventually those few enslave you

Originally posted by AthlonSavage
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

A HIGH END Baker can make twice that much. High End = someone with a degree in pastries from a culinary school, and who makes wedding cakes etc etc. The 'Bakers' at Hostess were people who pushed buttons on machines and mass produced junk food pastries in a machine. They didn't sit at a table hand decorating pastries ... it was all non-skilled labor

I admit i dont know anything about baking. I can bake a cake from a packet mix and thats about it.

That is all hostess bakers do is empty packages and add water and packaged eggs sometime milk. It is not a skilled work a robot can do it.

A good Confectioner at a 5 star restaurant does not make that much per hour.

reply to post by votan


all they need ot do is fully automate the system and they are ready to go. but those jobs once lost will never come back and this is not the first time union thuggery has driven business to the brink and broke them. They made their bed and now they must lay in it. But everyone else has to suffer ding dong and Twinkie withdrawals.

Originally posted by FreebirdGirl
Unskilled? Who are you to determine what skills are involved? Do you know the definition of unskilled?

Not directed at me but I'll answer ... unskilled, as in not having a special skill. The 'bakers' at Hostess pushed automatic buttons and moved boxes. That's being 'UNSKILLED' labor. They called themselves bakers and belonged to a bakers union. But they were UNSKILLED. Bakers with 'skills' have degrees from culinary schools and handmake pastries and cakes. The Hostess UNSKILLED labor pushed buttons on machines and moved boxes.

They made on average $15.00 per hour plus benefits.
Miminum wage is $7.25 per hour.

A SKILLED Baker can make twice that much money. Skilled .. as in a culinary degree .. makes wedding cakes by hand ... not pushing buttons on a machine to mass produce junk food.

Maybe this is wrong , but with times this hard why strike to this pint.
If they were doing their jobs they would still have jobs
Don't close down just get new workers , there are people out there that want that job ,
Or maybe. Hostess is looking for a way to thin down and are making a big deal then will stay open ,only smaller with less overhead ...just a thought

Didn't somebody earlier in this thread (like on Thursday or so) mention this?

worldnews.nbcnews.com...

Maybe the MSM is searching ATS for news?

good they taste like crap now. havent had a hostess anything in years that didnt taste like chemicals or wax

Originally posted by TheAngryFarm
Way to go unions!!!!

Protecting American jobs

Further proof unions are nothing but a haven for degenerates and losers.

Another piece of info: the CEO nearly tripled his salary to $2.55 million right before the bankruptcy. Upper exec's got huge $$$$ boosts and some even doubled. Not just the union to blame. I'm not justifying unions, but.......

What type of pay does the guy/girl get for making Twinkies, and all that stuff? I heard a person in the auto industry got, like, $25.00 per hour to pull a handle on a drill press.
And then again, sometimes a union is justified. I've known some pretty crappy employers.

Originally posted by manta78
My prediction is that that the Mexican company "Grupo Bimbo" will eventually buy the company at a fire-sale price, and continue operations using all the same name brand products.

Grupo Bimbo (pronounced "BEEM-bo") (BMV: BIMBO) is the world's largest baking company,[2] with brands in the Americas, Asia, and Europe.

For more information on Grupo Bimbo, go here:

en.wikipedia.org...

I like that. Is the translation: Group of Bimbos?

Originally posted by PurpleChiten

Originally posted by darkhorserider

When Unions are involved, the company can no longer make critical and timely business decisions such as cutting work force, lowering wages, or adding extra shifts. Once a Union is involved, the company becomes lethargic and unreactive to market conditions, and locked into long-term agreements that hurt its competitiveness.

Sure, the company has some blame, but it is likely their hands were tied in many ways for decades before it came to this. It isn't an equal 50/50 split of fault, it is more like an 80/20 split with the Union taking the majority of the fault.

I have to disagree with you, but I still respect your opinion. I put much more blame on the company than on the union.

Without unions, workers would still be making $2/hour and not even be able to survive

edit on 16-11-2012 by PurpleChiten because: removed excessive quote

We need to go allllllll the way back to when it all started. What was the employer doing, or not doing, to/for the employees. Many employers were just askin' for it because of the way the employees were treated by them.

en.wikipedia.org...
Twinkies are still legally made in Canada. No need to pay $1000 for a Twinkie on Ebay. Just drive to Canada and stock up.

Local news in Columbus Indiana (we have one of the big plants here) Some comments from locals follow the story at the link...

Lori Rumsey Moses
Yeah, 'cause all those unemployed people need another new place to shop.
Reply · 3 · · 6 hours ago

The Republic

As striking employees walked picket lines outside the Dolly Madison plant on National Road over the past week, their ranks buzzed with talk that a “white knight” company might show up at the last minute to buy the 53-year-old bakery and save their jobs.

It hasn’t happened.

Instead, owner Hostess Brands filed a motion Friday in U.S. Bankruptcy Court to sell its plants and iconic brands such as Twinkies, ending its run as a giant in the U.S. food industry. The move will eventually put more than 18,000 employees out of work around the country, including more than 200 at the Dolly Madison plant in Columbus.

If the bankruptcy liquidation proceeds as expected over the next few months, Hostess would disappear as a company, although some of its best-known brands might live on with new owners baking them. Local workers had made Dolly Madison products including powdered sugar, cinnamon and chocolate doughnuts and glazed sweet rolls.

Now, the question becomes will any other company or entrepreneur want to use the 11.5-acre National Road plant site for food manufacturing? Or will the property languish unused, creating a commercial black hole near the intersection of Central Avenue and National Road?

Don’t count on the Dolly Madison factory living on as a manufacturing plant, although it may find some other eventual use for offices, homes, apartments or retail shops. That’s what real estate experts and bakery analysts who follow the U.S. food industry said while sizing up the situation.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by FreebirdGirl
Unskilled? Who are you to determine what skills are involved? Do you know the definition of unskilled?

Not directed at me but I'll answer ... unskilled, as in not having a special skill. The 'bakers' at Hostess pushed automatic buttons and moved boxes. That's being 'UNSKILLED' labor. They called themselves bakers and belonged to a bakers union. But they were UNSKILLED. Bakers with 'skills' have degrees from culinary schools and handmake pastries and cakes. The Hostess UNSKILLED labor pushed buttons on machines and moved boxes.

They made on average $15.00 per hour plus benefits.
Miminum wage is $7.25 per hour.

A SKILLED Baker can make twice that much money. Skilled .. as in a culinary degree .. makes wedding cakes by hand ... not pushing buttons on a machine to mass produce junk food.

Let's look up the definition of unskilled instead of giving it our own interpretation. I will post it again.
This is not my personal definition.

un·skilled

not skilled in a branch of work :
lacking technical training
marked by lack of skill

www.merriam-webster.com...

Skilled Labor

Skilled Labor

Skilled labor refers to labor that requires workers who have specialized training or a learned skill-set to perform the work. These workers can be either blue-collar or white-collar workers, with varied levels of training or education. Very highly skilled workers may fall under the category of professionals, rather than skilled labor, such as doctors and lawyers. Examples of skilled labor occupations are: electricians, law enforcement officers, computer operators, financial technicians, and administrative assistants. Some skilled labor jobs have become so specialized that there are worker shortages.

Unskilled Labor

Unskilled labor does not require workers to have special training or skills. The jobs that require unskilled labor are continually shrinking due to technological and societal advances. Jobs that previously required little or no training now require training. For example, labor that was once done manually now may be assisted by computers or other technology, requiring the worker to have technological skills. Examples of remaining unskilled labor occupations generally include farm laborers, grocery clerks, hotel maids, and general cleaners and sweepers

Semi- or Mid-Skill Labor

Semi- or mid-skill labor addresses the increase in demand for skills, even for less complex jobs. These jobs require some skill because they are more complex than those that can be performed by a non-skilled laborer. However, they do not require highly specialized skills. In a 2010 study released by the Indiana Institute for Working Families, more than half of the jobs in that state were mid-skill. Examples of mid-skill jobs include truck drivers, typists and customer service representatives. These jobs generally require more than a high-school diploma, but less than a college degree.

smallbusiness.chron.com...

There are few jobs that qualify for unskilled. The confusion comes in where the term unskilled can be applied to
dishwashers to clerical. However when you consider that unskilled means a job which requires no or minimal training few jobs fall into that category. Some would say construction or iron workers are unskilled. However those that work in this field would argue that no one can walk off the street and do their job. Even a job as a dishwasher requires some form of skill. How many people know how to break down a dishwashing machine or commercial garbage disposal? If one wanted to quantify unskilled based on education consider this:

S. Daniel Abraham, billionaire founder of Slim-Fast. Joined the Army at the age of 18 and fought in Europe during World War II. Did not attend college

Sheldon Adelson, billionaire casino owner. Dropped out of City College of New York to become a court reporter. He made his first fortune doing trade shows.

Miguel Adrover, fashion designer. High school dropout

Dhirubhai Ambani, billionaire Indian businessman. High school dropout

Tom Anderson, co-founder of MySpace. A high school dropout

Bill Bartman, billionaire businessman, author. High school dropout

collegedropoutshalloffame.com...

Would you call these people unskilled?

Just to add my own $.02 on the subject of skilled vs unskilled...

As an employer, here is how I classify the difference (whether it's legitimately defined in Webster's or not) and how this credo gets applied in our workplace accordingly:

If I can pick anyone off the street and train them within a day to do a job, I classify it as unskilled labour. Obviously as time goes on, their skillset gets better and better... but this does not take away from the fact that, if necessary, they can easily be replaced with another (not a preferable action from a cost viewpoint however). Jobs that require the appropriate experience and/or training/education in order to accomplish their tasks, I classify it as skilled or semi-skilled.

Keep in mind that all jobs at any company require some form of training and familiarization of company procedures, as every company operates differently even if they're in the same industry... but the extent of that training/experience needed (outside of standard procedural training) determines whether or not it is skilled or unskilled.

Wage rates are set based on these standards, as well as taking into account industry standards. Wage raises are applied on an individual basis mid-fiscal according to their work performance, attendance record, attitude, relations with their fellow employees, etc. These individual assessment raises are given out over and above the standard cost of living wage increase that all employees receive on an annual fiscal basis.

Bonuses and any other extras are given out (or not) based on company profitability at fiscal end... When the company thrives, everybody from the top down does too. The first employees to take wage cuts and/or freezes and/or other benefit reductions are the overhead salaried staff (management, administrative, etc), production employees (our bread and butter) would be the last on the list. We've been lucky enough to never have to do so, but everybody understands this policy and are in agreement with how we would apply it if it ever did become necessary in times of tight crunches.

However, any reduction to employees (any employees) would only be used after all other expense cuts were in place first... Another words, this would be the last step, not the first.

Finances are monitored on a monthly basis in order to catch any unnecessary over-expenditures at the time that they're happening, rather than waiting until we're sucking on gas fumes.

This is how it works in our non-unionized environment. Employees are happy with our policies, and the company can still be competitive whilst pulling a profit year after year.

Unionized collective agreements work completely different and are applicable across the board to all employees as per contract timeline and/or sitting at the bargaining table when the contract is up for renewal every couple of years or so. In this setting, no unionized employee receives a wage increase until said timeline whether they're a hard worker or not. This type of environment is a breeding ground for "slackers" et al, because they would still receive contractual wage increases whether deserving or not. The typical "not my job" attitude thrives in a unionized workplace for this reason.

This has been my own experience and observations working in both types of environments (anecdotally speaking).

Personally, I prefer employees who are willing to bend over backwards for the company to keep it prosperous, as I am willing to bend over backwards to award them as acknowledgement of their hard work. The attitude of just coming in to collect your paycheque, does not a profitable company make. A company that cannot be at least somewhat profitable will ultimately die out when times get tough.

As observed in this thread, each person has their own perspective on which environment is the better of the two based on their own personal experiences and their past/current placement in the work force.

With that said, not all companies are "evil corrupt pigs". Some actually do benefit the economy whether you can recognize that big picture or not. Just because you don't see it or believe it as such, does not mean that it is.

It's a sad sad day for everyone across the board when a company has to close its doors for whatever reason. There is always an economic impact, be it great or small.

As an example: I see people jumping up and down on soapboxes screaming that Walmart needs to shut down without recognizing the drastically massive economic impact that would have across the board. It's unfortunate that this corporation is skipping around employee issues, but the ugly reality is that this damn company would put a permanent scar on the global economy if they were to shut their doors... it would take years upon years to pull ourselves out of the disaster it would incur. That's the ugly reality.


... Semantics aside, may we all somehow manage to survive in these crappy economic times...

reply to post by CranialSponge

As an example: I see people jumping up and down on soapboxes screaming that Walmart needs to shut down without recognizing the drastically massive economic impact that would have across the board. It's unfortunate that this corporation is skipping around employee issues, but the ugly reality is that this damn company would put a permanent scar on the global economy if they were to shut their doors... it would take years upon years to pull ourselves out of the disaster it would incur. That's the ugly reality.

You made some valid points on your perspective. However I disagree with the implication that Walmart's demise would shatter the economy. IMO it would have the opposite effect. Sure the immediate effect would be felt but it would be negated by the rise of small local businesses. First of all I work for a major corporation so I am not here to bash them. The facts show that Walmart is a major figure in the destruction of communities nationwide. Locally owned businesses have a better impact on the community economically and socially. Money comes in and stays in the community. On the other hand companies like Walmart drain from the community. In short the profits made in that community are not reinvested. Also, since local businesses have a direct connection with the community they tend to treat their employees better. Resulting in a win win. Walmart's owners do not have a hands -on relationship with the community resulting in a indifference to it's needs.

Imagine that.... Now they're back at the bargaining table.... nothing but another scam from the greedy corporation trying to make more $$

reply to post by FreebirdGirl


I think you two are playing semantics with official definitions.

"Skilled labor", from an employer perspective, is any labor that you would have to pay to train someone for. "Skilled labor", however, does not denote that there is a lot of value in that skill. But someone with an IQ of 70 may not be able to push a button in a manufacturing plant, so there is some value there.