Believe it or not its the truth.

First step to freedom is to be released from what you are not. Belief quite often tells us what we are not, we believe we are right or wrong. The truth is we are neither, only acts can be considered to be right or wrong. So if that is the case it is easy to assume that our beliefs are misleading us a lot of the time. Once we have been burned by fire, we don’t need a belief system to deal with fire. We know what fire can do and what its like. Fire is not bad in itself, its nature is to burn and eat up matter. Take a con artist, his mission is to trick you from the first instance. He gets you to believe that he is trustworthy and when you least expect it he cons you. The truth is he was conning you all along and once he has got what he was looking for, he drops you like a hot stone. You are surprised , but he is not. He is pleased at having accomplished his intended goals.
The thing with us is that we are constantly conning ourselves, this we do with our belief systems. We believe we need this and we need that and that if we don’t have that we will be very unhappy. Freedom most definitely requires us to know, for if we believe and ignore we are destined to be trapped. Believe it or not, its the truth.

Originally posted by ancientthunder

First step to freedom is to be released from what you are not.

There is so much truth wrapped up in that statement. When we liberate ourselves from that which we are not, the only thing that remains, is the immovable.

Great thread, and to keep with the theme:

Andy Dufresne: You know what the Mexicans say about the Pacific?
Red: No.
Andy Dufresne: They say it has no memory. That's where I want to live the rest of my life. A warm place with no memory.

reply to post by ancientthunder


Must be time to pass the torch along, so here you go, and thank you.

For nine years I've been typing here that All Beliefs are Limitations. In that time only 4 or 5 people have actually gotten "It".

I wish you well with this quest.

reply to post by ancientthunder


The OP is very confusing and mixes many items that are truly not mixable.

Belief systems are created around stuff we think we know/understand/get, used to explain phenomena that we have no personal explanation for and also as a base of faith, that permits us to take blind decisions in hope of a certain outcome. Belief systems are personal constructs but are not only created internally, they are learned even indoctrinated. Part cultural artifact, part personal discovery.

First step to freedom is to be released from what you are not. Belief quite often tells us what we are not, we believe we are right or wrong.

This makes no sense. There is no way to prove a negative as such belief systems rely on positive assurance (not negatives, unknowns). That is fire causes pain is a positive discovery that is done by observation, communication and self experience (I take for granted that every human being alive today at age 12 has been burned by heat, not necessarily by fire, at least once, heck most people in a moder setup would have an high probability of having self inflicted at least one electric shock by accident or design). Learning processes are positive by default what we do after discovery is what can be considered negative. Think about you first realization on the power of lies...

Since belief systems are internal mental frames for them to have any power they require oneself to have the confidence they are right. To negate any part of a belief system is to erode that mindset, this is one reason why we are by default averse to changes...

As the thread name "Believe it or not its the truth.", if one does not believe it, then it is not his truth if he does the belief needed to be changed, to adapt.

The truth is we are neither, only acts can be considered to be right or wrong.

Again can't disagree more. Define fact in the context of belief systems, one look into the world suffices to prove that belief systems trump facts most of the time. Faith is so strong that it can even act like a supernatural force, reality is what we think it is not what reality really is.

So if that is the case it is easy to assume that our beliefs are misleading us a lot of the time.

Belief systems can't mislead, not even other people ultimately can mislead you. You mislead yourself, start taking responsibility for your own decisions... Like in hypnosis, you are not hypnotized you hypnotize yourself.

Once we have been burned by fire, we don’t need a belief system to deal with fire.

I will stop here since there is mostly nothing rational on the OP. As I stated before belief systems trump facts and "the real", this is why people can walk on hot coals or even face becoming a firefighter. The mind withing the limits of reality can shape what you have learned, even permitting amazing feats, again look at deep religious persons or the power of hypnosis to see what can be done to supplant the consensus of what real and possible.

I have been exploring consciousness via hypnotic phenomena recently (almost a year now, it has permitted me to explain and understand many of the mental constructs we create, the power of controlled delusion is extremely interesting and enlightening). Take a look into this bit about Placebos at wikibooks it should start to help you understand the erroneous assertions you seem, to me, to have made.

reply to post by ancientthunder


All very true, belief systems were created to control us and shackle us into a paradigm created by those who want to enforce control on us.
The problem for us is that they started doing that thousands of years ago and to most people that belief system is normal and that to live outside of it you are considered insane or subversive and not fitting in to their version of society. The Paradigm that was created so long ago.

reply to post by kudegras

Although what you have stated is very true...not everyone is so constrained to various belief systems although our lifestyles are controlled to a degree by various factors.

The vast Majority of people in the U.S. are Moderates and just shake their heads as the diametrically opposites fight it out on the National Stage in Media, Government and various forms of mediums. These ever growing SILENT MASSES concentrate on the things that they need to do to prosper while the rest concentrate on how they will gain control over issues that each side believes that they are in the right.

In REALITY...everything is various SHADES OF GREY. Split Infinity

Originally posted by Tayesin
reply to post by ancientthunder

 

Must be time to pass the torch along, so here you go, and thank you.

For nine years I've been typing here that All Beliefs are Limitations. In that time only 4 or 5 people have actually gotten "It".

I wish you well with this quest.

Well all beliefs are limitations? Good. Go out into the street and toss yourself in front of a truck.....then you will get it.

reply to post by Panic2k11
if only you could just read what I have said and work from there. But you believe its necessary to fight the idea, that fine by me. I will just let the truth be.

reply to post by Logarock
I didn't say that all beliefs are wrong, what I said that many of them are misleading us.
we don't need a belief system to know about the dangers of the road.

reply to post by Panic2k11


After reading your response it's obvious you hold very dearly to your belief system and wouldn't for anything in the world allow something to change it.
How do we hypnotize ourselves? I am pretty sure the hypnotist takes part in the process.
Also when I saw you mention " faith" I knew what your belief system was and what paradigm you subscribe to.
They say Faith can move mountains, but i've yet to see it happen. But If I wait a few million years I might see it happen.
Patience is a Virtue, You need a lot of patience especially if your waiting for faith to move a mountain.
The Lord works in mysterious ways, Absolutely. He is positively inscrutable.
Its a mystery to me why I need to wait a million years for faith to move a mountain.
Belief systems were created to control. Its simple and the biggest controller of all is religion.
Peace

reply to post by SplitInfinity


Yeah I agree with the shades of grey, but I think we all have to play the game in order to survive in this world which means, even though we don't want to be we are controlled in some way.
Religion, Government, Media, Employment, Sports Club, Supermarket, Utilities all of these things and more control our lives and are part of the Paradigm that has been created to control.
The shades of grey is just the extent to which you participate.

Originally posted by Logarock

Well all beliefs are limitations? Good. Go out into the street and toss yourself in front of a truck.....then you will get it.

Hi Log.

We don't need to Believe a truck will kill us if we throw ourselves in front of one. We Know already through observation that death is the probable outcome in most cases. We don't have to build a Belief about it, we Know.

Belief, and, Knowing, are two very different things.

Knowing is a current moment thing, it changes according to Observation.

Belief on the other hand is unmoving, it doesn't change much over time. It lay within a Box. A box Indoctrinated into us by our Culture, and localised variations, all of which was modelled perfectly by just about everyone we ever saw... and our Media.

Comfort Zones are found inside the Box.

Freedom to Know is found outside those Limitations.

reply to post by kudegras


I may have given you reasons to speculate, but avoid to jump from speculation to assumption as assumptions inevitably lead to error...

I agree that I give much importance to my own belief systems (I wouldn't qualify them as being only one, some are not at all connected) in any case I have a very mutable and open belief system by I have also an high standard for consistency, logic and rationality. I'm very porous to new concepts and views (in fact I even give above average importance to minority views, even if against my own, I recognize the fact that they require more effort to be noticed).

As for faith, you seem to be linking it to religion, I have no complex faith, my faith is in myself as for what I believe about the ultimate truth well I consider myself a Pantheist, hope this clears any of you speculations...

How do we hypnotize ourselves?

There are many way to hypnotize yourself and no an hypnotist is not required only understanding of the processes, it all starts by the deepening of a trance state. Meditation for instance is self hypnosis of sorts...

They say Faith can move mountains, but i've yet to see it happen. But If I wait a few million years I might see it happen.

The saying has many reads, the simplest one is the removal of large obstacles. In any case if you believe that the mountains move they will assuredly do so, even if not in reality but on your mindframe. There are many videos on youtube about invisibility induced by hypnosis for instance, even strange reports of people claiming to be able to get information through those now "invisible" objects (I have yet to see this proven, even if to a degree I can over tentative logic solutions). Consciousness is an extremely interesting subject....

Belief systems were created to control. Its simple and the biggest controller of all is religion.

To a point I agree, it depends on what you mean by control. Belief systems are created to control reality. I believe that religion to a point may be necessary to some to be able to cope with reality, I respect that, it gives them comfort and strength, it helps them to find a meaning, the problem is when it gets organized and structured into a power system, indeed a system of social control...

Originally posted by ancientthunder
reply to post by Logarock

 

I didn't say that all beliefs are wrong, what I said that many of them are misleading us.
we don't need a belief system to know about the dangers of the road.

I beg to differ. But maybe I dont understand what you mean by belief system. We do have rules for the road that address reality. You dont think rules, like the laws of gravity, extend into the abstract?

It is obvious from the replies that many are afraid to release the limitations of belief. Fear of the void is powerful. Sometimes in order to gain, one must loose. What if is a very fun place, I recommend it.

The thing with us is that we are constantly conning ourselves, this we do with our belief systems. We believe we need this and we need that and that if we don’t have that we will be very unhappy. Freedom most definitely requires us to know, for if we believe and ignore we are destined to be trapped. Believe it or not, its the truth.

Yes i think this is true and agree we tend to be caught in a mirror of reflection. We arnt watching our true self we are instead watching a reflection that requires us to conn ourselfs; as if there is a spell which is holding our gaze on the mirror.

Originally posted by ancientthunder
reply to post by Logarock

 

I didn't say that all beliefs are wrong, what I said that many of them are misleading us.
we don't need a belief system to know about the dangers of the road.

You are definitely on to something, IMO you just have to make some important distinctions.

The distinctions between the ego mind and the ego body are important.

The ego body helps us survive in this reality, and teaches us things like "oh, if I touch that stove it will be hot", or "I should look both ways before crossing the street", so it is necessary.

The ego mind is the part that is limiting and we should work to minimize it. The ego loves to strengthen it's own identity, and to do this it strives to make itself separate from others. It creates enemies of other people by basically any negative emotion, such as feelings of superiority, inferiority, jealousy, anger, impatience, judgement etc. The universal truth is love and positive emotions, anything else is of the ego and comes from fear.

So if they are not necessary for survival in this world, belief systems are wrong, because again they contain elements of fear which lead to thoughts of superiority, hate, judgement, materialism etc which only serve to strengthen the ego, and take one away from the universal truth which is love.

Apart from love, there are no truths in our reality, only perspective.

Peace.

reply to post by PlanetXisHERE

So if they are not necessary for survival in this world, belief systems are wrong

It all depends on what you define as survival, I would have used something like quality of mental life (spirituality) more obscure but would cover stuff that belief systems my do that do not directly impact survivability but quality of mental life (self assurance, self confidence, self reliance, hope, etc).

There are negative emotions that will always be needed (as we will most probably every be unable to comprehend all) so fear then becomes a necessity (even for survival) and this then creates the other negative range (hate, envy, etc) to the point of being themselves useful and even important in very specific situations for survivability (they are indeed necessary for protection and the ability to navigate social life).

I think that I would change that statement to something like "So if they are not necessary for a good mental life in dealing with reality, belief systems should be always open for review". A rational and self aware person can manage the negative aspects if he/she understands the causes and effects of them, attempting to exorcise or deprecate some aspects of our mentality is intrinsically damaging. I often hear on ATS that love is the solution, I strongly digress (independent of the meaning of love), I say that understanding (that includes empathy) is the solution to all.

I like this. I never thought of it like that..I always thought i knew it all and that I was always right. I think it's one of the mistakes I made during my period of elightenment, now im trying to find myself again =/

reply to post by ancientthunder

Nice thread ancientthunder.
Humans believe themselves to be this or that because they believe in things, they believe in labels and names and sybmols - they have made graven images and worship them. They cannot see past the words plastered all over divinity. The words are like a veil hanging over reality, when it lifts the kingdom will be revealed.
It is words that build the story of belief.