Revealed: UK Government Pays NHS Hospitals to Kill People

The figures, obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, reveal the full scale of financial inducements for the first time.
They suggest that about 85 per cent of trusts have now adopted the regime, which can involve the removal of hydration and nutrition from dying patients.
More than six out of 10 of those trusts - just over half of the total - have received or are due to receive financial rewards for doing so amounting to at least £12million. www.telegraph.co.uk...

I did a more detailed thread here: www.abovetopsecret.com...
About how one woman only survived because her family gave her water against the doctor’s orders. The 82 year old is now doing a world cruise. However this is more about deaths more inhumane than euthanasia, whilst this thread is about government doctors killing people so they can stay rich.

This post is very sad but yes very true, it's not new either, as it was brought in under John Majors Tory Party leadership too, it is always done under Tories but only ever with white public members, if they can get shut of English people the Tories have more money to send to Muslim countries for them to buy Arms from British firms that Tory MP's own.
Lets hope that if Cameron ever has to go into Hospital or any of his own family members that they get thirsty too okay?

I can't understand how anyone would think this is ok, they're starving our old folk to death. If we teated animals this way they would lock us up. I had no idea it had been going on for so long, it's sick.

Who ever thought this policy up is one sick puppy.
Sadly 90 percent of the public don't care about anything except drivel like x factor,towie and I pads.
This will no doubt be used as a cash cow by private firms as they slowly take over the nhs.
These poor old folks have paid tax and national insurance all their lives yet they get this.
Disgusting.

Originally posted by LEL01
I can't understand how anyone would think this is ok, they're starving our old folk to death. If we teated animals this way they would lock us up. I had no idea it had been going on for so long, it's sick.

To put it into some kind of perspective,doctors will advise on witholding nutrients from certain patients,usually those in a persistive vegetative state with no medically identified chance of a recovery.I couldn't see our doctors witholding nutrition/treatment from conscious and or responsive patients under any circumstances.

Without doubt,medical professionals will make mistakes but it does seem to be stretching it a bit to suggest that they would deliberately let patients with a medically identified chance for recovery die for financial or any other reason.

reply to post by nake13

They are starving them to end thier lives, I don't thik it matters much if they do it for money or not, it's just not the way to treat people. It's cruel.

Originally posted by LEL01
reply to post by nake13

 

They are starving them to end thier lives, I don't thik it matters much if they do it for money or not, it's just not the way to treat people. It's cruel.

I agree with you,it does seem cruel and goes against the grain of most civilised human beings,however,maybe in some cases where the patient has no possibility of recovery(from a coma where brain death has been diagnosed) or a decent quality of and pain free life it's a matter of being cruel to be kind?

I would recommend people actually read what the LCP is and how it is used before getting all sanctimonious about it.

Basically, it is only used on those who are terminally ill and in their literal last days. It isn't necessarily used to "hasten" death, but rather make it more comfortable, with high doses of morphine etc. I know if I was terminally ill and in chronic, constant pain at the end of my life, I'd bloody well expect doctors to make dope me up so my last couple of days are much easier.

Its not just used to "kill old people" and if you honestly believe that, it shows you're total ignorance of the matter, which then begs the question why are you commenting on something you do not understand.

LCP - Wiki

Nobody is going to live forever.

Originally posted by stumason
I would recommend people actually read what the LCP is and how it is used before getting all sanctimonious about it.

Basically, it is only used on those who are terminally ill and in their literal last days. It isn't necessarily used to "hasten" death, but rather make it more comfortable, with high doses of morphine etc. I know if I was terminally ill and in chronic, constant pain at the end of my life, I'd bloody well expect doctors to make dope me up so my last couple of days are much easier.

Its not just used to "kill old people" and if you honestly believe that, it shows you're total ignorance of the matter, which then begs the question why are you commenting on something you do not understand.

I think these might be the points people object to. From the Telegraph article.

'A series of cases have also come to light in which family members said they were not consulted or even informed when food and fluids were withheld from their loved-ones.

In some instances patients placed on the pathway because doctors judged that they were nearing the end of their life went on to recover'.

If they're witholding food and water without patient or family consent it becomes an issue.

From your own wiki link.

'The Royal College of Physicians found that up to half of families were not informed of clinicians’ decision to put a relative on the pathway.[28]'

reply to post by khimbar


In which case the LCP isn't being followed, so it is unfair to criticise it.

It's like me saying driving is dangerous and should be banned because some drivers don't follow the rules.

The LCP says families and, if possible the patient, should be consulted. It also says if the patient stops deteriorating then palliative care is to be replaced by medical care.

The way the Telegraph describes things is making out like the Hospitals are being rewarded for killing people, this is not true in the slightest. One of the targets is that a certain amount of people that die in the hospital should be put on the LCP.

This is not an increase in the amount of deaths, however, just making sure that those that are about to die anyway are given the best palliative care so their last days are more peaceful.

It is about giving the best care for the patient in those last days, rather prolonging the inevitable while the patient (who will die anyway) suffers.

So this government continues to hurt the people who dont have the means to fight back. First it was kicking 70% off incapacity benefit, then bring in new law thats forcing people into jobs that pay almost no money and now they want to kill the elderly. Im so sick of this government and the way its treating the very people who voted for them.

Originally posted by stumason

In which case the LCP isn't being followed, so it is unfair to criticise it.

I'm not.

Originally posted by stumason

It's like me saying driving is dangerous and should be banned because some drivers don't follow the rules.

I'm criticising the speeding and careless drivers, in your analogy, who let people die without informing their relatives of the choices they've made on their patients behalf.

Originally posted by PhoenixOD
So this government continues to hurt the people who dont have the means to fight back. First it was kicking 70% off incapacity benefit, then bring in new law thats forcing people into jobs that pay almost no money and now they want to kill the elderly. Im so sick of this government and the way its treating the very people who voted for them.

and I'm sick of hysterical hyperbole.

If I'm sick and in pain with no chance of recovery........please be merciful and


PUT ME DOWN!!!

I believe it's the "Liverpool Care Pathway" intended to allow patients to die a "dignified death"

For me it's just another system to be abused. How are hospitals allowed to "allow" (allow? how do you allow someone to die if they don't want to? what if they want to fight? They are forced!) patients to die yet people enduring similar symptoms have to go to the high courts, courts of human rights, courts of appeals and still have no right to be helped to die...

The removal of medication, fluids and solids from any patient without consent is absolutely disgusting.

Anyway, for further reading for those interested, here is an actual LCP: www.tewv.nhs.uk...

And an interesting article by the Telegraph:

However the LCP is fast becoming one of the most contentious of health issues with the relatives of dying patients queuing up to denounce it as tantamount to ''euthanasia’’ and claiming that patients who are not dying are being placed on the LCP and denied food and water.

Source: www.telegraph.co.uk...

This has been going on since the 90's, I truly wonder how many preventable deaths have been caused.

A little off topic, but people in positions of power cannot be trusted. We have police tazering blind men, workmen without following protocal (yet there's talk of allowing them to have guns?!) What is stopping the NHS from abusing their power? I'll tell you what's not stopping it.... £££££££££

I tend not to post however ill toss in my 2¢ for this subject.

I have been around old age and death since a very young age, My mother managed a 20 bed nursing home where I spent most of my holidays in and around the old and dying, now at 24 my aunt owns a 40 bed nursing home facility that most of my family works in and that I still visit all the time.

When you see an old person lying in bed with no fight for life left in their body is it kind to keep pumping them full of nutrients to sustain them just for an extra few days even through at that stage in the game most residents have dementia to boot.

Anyone who deals with or sees patients on deaths door everyday will realise this is the kindest thing to do. I personally have known for years that this has been happening even as far to say that doctors will let phenomena kill a patient that’s on their last legs while feeding them morphine to keep them comfortable.

Do you really want to live an extra couple days with little to no cognative function and being forced fed or would you rather be feed morphine to take the pain away and slip off into the night.

Ill have the morphine please!

It's worth noting that there were no plans for palative care in Britain before the LRC, meaning there were many more horror cases of the terminally Ill, being mistreated in their final days. It's also worth pointing out that Marie Curiie were part of the group that came up with the LRC. Marie Curie are hardly known for their mistreatment of the terminally Ill.

We need to have a.mature debate in this country about the terminally Ill and euthanasia. I believe it should be possible to have a living will where you can determine how you want your life to end. This is something that i have had to think about a lot recently. To me it makes no sense in withering away in front of your loved ones. It's not good for the dying or the family that has to sit and watch. So why not come up with a more dignified option that allows one to pass, without being kept alive by modern medicine. Its obviously a tough debate as there are many cases where this could be abused, but it's about time we spoke more about these things.

reply to post by woodwardjnr

I agree with you about the living will, I just spent 6 months helping my 85 yr old mother fight for her rights to stop doctors and family from making decisions about her without her knowing. They only get away with it because people let them.
I have to leave this thread now as it's a bit too close to home for me.

stumason I would recommend people actually read what the LCP is and how it is used before getting all sanctimonious about it.

And I would recommend you read the facts about the LCP, rather than take the governments-NHS description of it as gospel.

I survived the death pathway: Patricia, 82, was given two days to live, but her family defied doctors and gave her water through a straw - now she's planning a world cruise
• Doctors at Blackpool hospital put 82-year-old on the Liverpool Care Pathway
• Her family defied orders and gave her water after which she recovered
• Ministers are investigating Liverpool Care Pathway after accusations it hastens death of patients
www.dailymail.co.uk... ning-world-cruise.html

In which case the LCP isn't being followed, so it is unfair to criticise it.

Glad you can freely acknowledge that hospitals have been killing treatable patients, without their families consent, with the offer of millions in government cash incentives for the hospitals doing the killing.

It's like me saying driving is dangerous and should be banned because some drivers don't follow the rules.

No it’s like you saying a stabbing isn’t a stabbing, because murder is an improper use of use of a knife.

I’m not trying to argue that fancyable, proper use of the LPC is a bad thing, because I happen to agree with Euthanasia. Rather I’m arguing…
1. Hospitals should be places for treating people, and hospices places for killing them.
2. It would be better to kill someone with a drug, than by starvation
3. Killing someone without their consent is murder
4. Killing someone without their families knowledge just confirms it
5. Murder is taking place under the LPC, and by defending the LPC (something that no matter how proper when well done) has led to this situation, you are effectively encouraging the use of government-NHS hospitals as murdering grounds to continue.
6. Those who’ve used the LPC to murder (rather than assist someone –their families, expressed wish to die) should be tried at a later date (even if it’s decades from now). Evil is evil, and does not lessen enough with time.

reply to post by Liberal1984


As a nurse with extensive experience in critical care including A&E and high dependency units I find this type of manipulation sickening. I use the Liverpool Care Pathway daily in my work often in very difficult circumstances I find it offensive for people who quite clearly know nothing about the nature of death and caring for the dying patient to be so critical about a care plan they know nothing about.

First let me address the OP and this issue of withholding nutrition and hydration form patients. In my experience, and the experience of my colleagues this is often a necessity however I can understand why to a non-medical professional how this would seem abhorrent. Please allow me to explain, in the case of the dying patient the objective is to maximise comfort and dignity ultimately that is the aim of the LCP to do this eventually it often becomes necessary to withhold nutrition. This is done for a number of reasons, many of them ethical, in general it is widely accepted that it is unethical to preform unnecessary procedures that will only cause harm to patients. For example it is not appropriate to insert a nasogastric tube into a patient who is dying or to insert a central line to provide parenteral nutrition as this will only cause undue distress. Usually at this point the patient is close to the end in any case however IV fluids are usually given (this may be hartments, dextrose or Saline it all depends) at this stage. There is also a risk of cause a patient to aspirate and develop phenomena, or there could be other medical reasons such as dysphagia (swallowing difficulties) following a CVA (Stroke) or perhaps the individual has undergone massive abdominal surgery and cannot eat. At the end of the day there is always a very good medical and ethical reason behind withdrawing foods. I nor any of my colleagues have ever seen a patient on the LCP who is able to take oral foods and fluids denied, however it is very rare that these patients can eat in the first place.

Now onto the article, it’s been written by a idiot who knows nothing about palliative care or how the system of NHS targets work. First off all he talks about this “pathway to death”, death is not a event by a process, I don’t want to get into all the academics of this but that is a common theme you will find in the literature. Speaking of which the LCP is a evidence based care pathway that has been used for years now, whoever has wrote this is clearly cherry picking sources.

It is also very wrong the way this author as tried to implied that the NHS is paid to put patients on this pathway. This is a classic case of the NHS doing something right. I know that in NHS Scotland we have HEAT targets that have to be met, if they are met there is a incentive for the NHS Board this helps to maintain standards and it can by through providing further investment. But it is a percentage of patients I don’t know the number of the top of my head but the target will say something like “80% of patients who go on to die put on LCP” and not “put 2000 people on LCP make sure they die and get 12 million” as the article and OP seem to imply.

Another point I wish to make, regarding the involvement of families. There are occasions when patients don’t want any family involvement; you would be surprised how often this happens, there are also times when a patient deteriorates very quickly and is put on the plan before the family are involved. I know that in the version of the LCP that I use there is an entire page regarding involvement form “loved ones”. Also please note that the family don’t HAVE to be told, if medical staff say “right this guy needs to be put on the LCP” he goes on it, we tell the family about it later but we don’t need their consent.

Yes there are times when people are put on the LCP who are later taken off it because they fight through and live but this is rather rare, however I have seen it happen.