Originally posted by Dima
yo american mad man, do u know wat u're talking about, u at like u guya are the masters of BVR, well, news flash, holy crak, U AREN'T
russia had it way before any of u're planes had it, thats why their planes are known well for it, because they were the first ones, and i plan on seeing the BVR increasing from 45 degrees to 60 degrees for the future russian aircraft

BVR is a new thing to p;lanes, the russians have had it on their MiG-29's for nearly 30 years

What do you think is BVR?

BVR stands for Beyond Visual Range

it means that the aircraft has the ability to shoot up to 45 degrees off its nose, so it doesn't have to point towards the aircraft with its HUD to hacka lock-on, i believe they use a helmet mounted sighting system

in future russian aircraft, i personally believe that they will increase the BVR to 60 degrees, that would be awesome

oh longbow, ui read both u're links, and they are rather impressive, but, i thought u meant laser systems that were supposed to melt artillery shells and AA missiles, not mines, heck i can blow up a mine, give me a mine detector and a watermelon, lol, boomb a low cost option lol

Originally posted by Dima
it means that the aircraft has the ability to shoot up to 45 degrees off its nose, so it doesn't have to point towards the aircraft with its HUD to hacka lock-on, i believe they use a helmet mounted sighting system

in future russian aircraft, i personally believe that they will increase the BVR to 60 degrees, that would be awesome

No. It's true that BVR stands for beyond visual range, but it has nothing to do with degrees or helmet mounted sighting system. It's just long range combat (Amraam, Sparrow etc.). I'm tired, I'm going to bed.

thats wrong, where did u get that info from, because thats like absolutely wrong, i thought everyone knows that BVR enables u to be able to lock-on to targets even if their off u're HUD, it doesn't mean that u can knock off enemies from far away, it all depends on the angle, and it was 30 degrees for the average MiG-29, but the MiG-29M2 has 45 degrees and so do a couple of other fighters like German MiG's

Originally posted by Dima
yo american mad man, do u know wat u're talking about, u at like u guya are the masters of BVR, well, news flash, holy crak, U AREN'T
russia had it way before any of u're planes had it, thats why their planes are known well for it, because they were the first ones, and i plan on seeing the BVR increasing from 45 degrees to 60 degrees for the future russian aircraft

BVR is a new thing to p;lanes, the russians have had it on their MiG-29's for nearly 30 years

Ohhh jesus. YES, the US is currently "the masters" of BVR combat.

The AMRAAM missle has a 93% kill ratio - that means 93 out of 100 planes shot at will be hit.

Couple that with the US's AWACS soverage which is better then any other nations, AND with the new F/A-22 Raptor which will be nearly undetectable to enemy aircraft, and YES, the US IS the KING of BVR combat.

Listen - I really do respect Russia as a country, and especially their military, OK

They have some great tech over there, and some very brave soldiers.

But get with it man, in this day and age, the US is ahead of every other nation in the world, hands down. Thats not opinion - it's just a fact.

Thats not to say that Russia, China, the EU or some other nation couldn't pass the US in the future, but as of now and for the forseeable future, the US is on top.

Originally posted by Dima
thats wrong, where did u get that info from, because thats like absolutely wrong, i thought everyone knows that BVR enables u to be able to lock-on to targets even if their off u're HUD, it doesn't mean that u can knock off enemies from far away, it all depends on the angle, and it was 30 degrees for the average MiG-29, but the MiG-29M2 has 45 degrees and so do a couple of other fighters like German MiG's

You are wrong Dima - BVR combat means long range combat. AKA shooting at each other at distances where you cannot see your enemy except on Radar.

Thats why the US isn't as focused on dogfighting - because the USAF believes it can kill it's enemy before it would ever enter a dogfight.

Russia still sees dogfighting as the main priority in it's aircraft - it's simply a difference in style, and also has a lot to do with the money involved in making a superior BVR aircraft.

The Raptor is the best BVR combat A/C because it's stealth/Radar/weapons combine to let it have "first look, first shot, first kill" advantage.

In other words, the Raptor Pilot will see the enemy on his radar before the enemy sees him. The Raptor will fire his missle, and the enemy still won't have seen him. And because of the way that US weapons are designed, the enemy will only realise he is beeing shot at when their is too little time left to respond. He will be forced to eject or die trying to save the aircraft.

first of all, that story is bs, lol, pure bsIraq doesn't use a Katyusha, and if not they, then what country did america go to war with that does last year, THINK

wow, american mad man, i think i explained it earlier in another post, but, an F/A-22 isn't invisible to radar, not even remotely dispite all these articles about its capabilities. those excercises with the 6 F-16C's going head to head with 2 F/A-22's and losing, i have no doubt in my mind that tohose F-16's would lose, because their radarisn't that good, no wonder the F/A-22 was able to come in and rape them while they sleep(nice lol)but the russians invented stealth, so they have ways around it, that probably no other countries know about, and their radars are much more powerful

u know the practice between the indian Su-30MKI's and american F-15E's, the americans didn't have their frontline radars, well, hate to break it to u, but the Su-30MKI's aren't even fully equipped yet either, russia was supposed to start selling them to india in 1996 and would continue to until 2000(thats four years) they were supposed to sell them in batches of aircraft, and every batch would be more modernized than the other, but russia didn't start selling them to india until 2002, when the first batch was procured, so that means there's still about another 2 years of modernizing yet until they will actually be able to be called Su-30MKI's, their name should be like Su-30M lol

Originally posted by American Mad Man

Originally posted by Dima
yo american mad man, do u know wat u're talking about, u at like u guya are the masters of BVR, well, news flash, holy crak, U AREN'T
russia had it way before any of u're planes had it, thats why their planes are known well for it, because they were the first ones, and i plan on seeing the BVR increasing from 45 degrees to 60 degrees for the future russian aircraft

BVR is a new thing to p;lanes, the russians have had it on their MiG-29's for nearly 30 years

Ohhh jesus. YES, the US is currently "the masters" of BVR combat.

The AMRAAM missle has a 93% kill ratio - that means 93 out of 100 planes shot at will be hit.

Couple that with the US's AWACS soverage which is better then any other nations, AND with the new F/A-22 Raptor which will be nearly undetectable to enemy aircraft, and YES, the US IS the KING of BVR combat.

Listen - I really do respect Russia as a country, and especially their military, OK

They have some great tech over there, and some very brave soldiers.

But get with it man, in this day and age, the US is ahead of every other nation in the world, hands down. Thats not opinion - it's just a fact.

Thats not to say that Russia, China, the EU or some other nation couldn't pass the US in the future, but as of now and for the forseeable future, the US is on top.

i quoted this jus looking for tings i should defend jus wait lol let me see...............................................................okay, her we go, that 93% dealiee thingy, well 93% against wat type of aircraft, if u wanna gohead to head with a MiG-21, yea, well, the MiG is screwed(even thought the MiG-21 BIS screwed over those F-15E's in india)

k, i think i heard about this statistic too, but, don't flares/chaffs come to mind? att ll?

maybe, the missile has a 93% of making it half way to the aircraft, but if the aircraft fires a chaff or flare, that precent goes down, this isn't just to the AMRAAM, its too all missiles, even russian ones

and the BVR, i don'r understand where you guys are getting your info from, please cite the site, because i know that actual BVR is way different from the type that you describedwell, the BVR that i'm talking about is where the MiG-29 can shoot up to 30degrees to 45 degrees depending on modification off borsight and lock-on to the target, as far as i know, its the grim reaper of all F-16 pilots, all of them hate this ability

i have never heard of the type of BVR that you guys have mentioned though

Originally posted by Dima
first of all, that story is bs, lol, pure bsIraq doesn't use a Katyusha, and if not they, then what country did america go to war with that does last year, THINK

Read the WHOLE LINK.

wow, american mad man, i think i explained it earlier in another post, but, an F/A-22 isn't invisible to radar, not even remotely dispite all these articles about its capabilities. those excercises with the 6 F-16C's going head to head with 2 F/A-22's and losing, i have no doubt in my mind that tohose F-16's would lose, because their radarisn't that good, no wonder the F/A-22 was able to come in and rape them while they sleep(nice lol)but the russians invented stealth, so they have ways around it, that probably no other countries know about, and their radars are much more powerful

You really are into mother Russia aren't you? First off - Russia did not "invent" stealth. A Russian mathmatician came up with SIMPLIFIED formulas of a previous GERMAN scientists theories on radar returns. It seems that the Russians WERE TOO STUPID to classify this, because they just let it get published.

THE US invented stealth - the first stealth aircraft deployed in the world was the SR-71 Blackbird. So don't go saying that Russia invented stealth - they didn't come up wit the original theory, and they STILL havent deployed a stealth air craft.

As for the Raptors stealth, it is true that NO STEALTH is COMPLETELY invisable to Radar. I agree with that. However, the Raptors stealth is such that no aircraft today would be able to see it on radar BEFORE the raptor had already killed it. OK.

The Raptors stealth is so good that F-15's can't pick it up untill it is within VISUAL range - again, relating to BVR combat, the Raptor will NEVER be within visual range.

u know the practice between the indian Su-30MKI's and american F-15E's, the americans didn't have their frontline radars, well, hate to break it to u, but the Su-30MKI's aren't even fully equipped yet either, russia was supposed to start selling them to india in 1996 and would continue to until 2000(thats four years) they were supposed to sell them in batches of aircraft, and every batch would be more modernized than the other, but russia didn't start selling them to india until 2002, when the first batch was procured, so that means there's still about another 2 years of modernizing yet until they will actually be able to be called Su-30MKI's, their name should be like Su-30M lol

Have you read the artical? The Eagles radar wasn't used, PLUS the Eagles were outnumbered 3 to 1, PLUS the range of the AMRAAMS was reduced by ONE THIRD, PLUS we weren't allowed to use AWACS while the Indian AF was. The F-15s weren't just handicapped by their radar - their MISSLES were handicapped in addition to being outnembered AND they weren't allowed to use AWACS while the enemy had a "simulated" one.

It's just a bad messure of skill - for both sides. Yuo can't take any wins for the Sukhois seriously because, lets face it, the practice just wasn't realistic.

Originally posted by American Mad Man

Originally posted by Dima
first of all, that story is bs, lol, pure bsIraq doesn't use a Katyusha, and if not they, then what country did america go to war with that does last year, THINK

Read the WHOLE LINK.

wow, american mad man, i think i explained it earlier in another post, but, an F/A-22 isn't invisible to radar, not even remotely dispite all these articles about its capabilities. those excercises with the 6 F-16C's going head to head with 2 F/A-22's and losing, i have no doubt in my mind that tohose F-16's would lose, because their radarisn't that good, no wonder the F/A-22 was able to come in and rape them while they sleep(nice lol)but the russians invented stealth, so they have ways around it, that probably no other countries know about, and their radars are much more powerful

You really are into mother Russia aren't you? First off - Russia did not "invent" stealth. A Russian mathmatician came up with SIMPLIFIED formulas of a previous GERMAN scientists theories on radar returns. It seems that the Russians WERE TOO STUPID to classify this, because they just let it get published.

THE US invented stealth - the first stealth aircraft deployed in the world was the SR-71 Blackbird. So don't go saying that Russia invented stealth - they didn't come up wit the original theory, and they STILL havent deployed a stealth air craft.

As for the Raptors stealth, it is true that NO STEALTH is COMPLETELY invisable to Radar. I agree with that. However, the Raptors stealth is such that no aircraft today would be able to see it on radar BEFORE the raptor had already killed it. OK.

The Raptors stealth is so good that F-15's can't pick it up untill it is within VISUAL range - again, relating to BVR combat, the Raptor will NEVER be within visual range.

u know the practice between the indian Su-30MKI's and american F-15E's, the americans didn't have their frontline radars, well, hate to break it to u, but the Su-30MKI's aren't even fully equipped yet either, russia was supposed to start selling them to india in 1996 and would continue to until 2000(thats four years) they were supposed to sell them in batches of aircraft, and every batch would be more modernized than the other, but russia didn't start selling them to india until 2002, when the first batch was procured, so that means there's still about another 2 years of modernizing yet until they will actually be able to be called Su-30MKI's, their name should be like Su-30M lol

Have you read the artical? The Eagles radar wasn't used, PLUS the Eagles were outnumbered 3 to 1, PLUS the range of the AMRAAMS was reduced by ONE THIRD, PLUS we weren't allowed to use AWACS while the Indian AF was. The F-15s weren't just handicapped by their radar - their MISSLES were handicapped in addition to being outnembered AND they weren't allowed to use AWACS while the enemy had a "simulated" one.

It's just a bad messure of skill - for both sides. Yuo can't take any wins for the Sukhois seriously because, lets face it, the practice just wasn't realistic.

i still don't think u're getting it

U CAN STILL SEE THE RAPTOR ON U'RE RADAR, AND WHEN IT FIRES ITS MISSILE, BOOMB, THE SIGNAL EXPLODES, JEEZE

u act as if u won't see it on u're radar until u 're dead, buddy, listen, radar is the single most important thing that a pilot looks at, if he's about to engage in combat, he looks at his radar every 3 seconds!, so, plz lol, stealth is crappy,

well, the version that costs bundles of money when a normal Czech radar can pick u up

k, stealth, russian invented stealth, but they didn't pursue it because they found out that it affected the attributes of the actual plane, and aince dogfighting was the most important thing to them , they didn't pursue it, instead, they looked for alternatives

and the SR.71 wasn't the first one, i believe that it was the U-2, i'm not really sure though

yo, it doesn't mater, fight against the Sukhoi's in 2 years, that will be interesting, find me a site that states that their AMRAAms only had 1/3 the range and all that other crap that u said, i am aware that they were outnumbered 3 to 1 and that they didn't have the radar though

u say that the russians develpoped the formula's

but, hello, everything depends on the formula holy crak, are u messed up, yea so they came up with the formula=they came up with stealth simple as that lol

The SR-71 was the first stealth jet, not the U-2, the U-2 was the first spy plane and high altitude reconnaissance aircraft, but stealth was not on its capabilities list.

You seam to think that stealth is just some myth and that being invisible cannot be achieved, the Raptor (and others) use a paint scheme which makes it blend in with the sky, and has a low IR sig, and in a speck on the radar screen.

If stealth is garbage then why has there never being a B-2 shot down, and dont forget that some of there missions have being the first aircraft to fly over a enemy country, so there flight paths put them directly into harms way, and they came out unscaved.

As for BVR, I believe you both are referring to the same thing.

Beyond Visual Range is exactly what it sounds like - you cant visually see it but you know its there because of your radar. and as for the degrees, that is what BVR is all about. Think of a " V " which is the radar coming out of the nose of the aircraft, the wider the " V " shape is the more that is detectable, so more is better.

The US does believe that the F/A-22 will be able to take-out several planes before it is close enough to be detected, but you could call the Air Force Backward compatible, because although they think that stealth gives them the advantage of not being seen and there for they would no longer have the traditional dogfights, But they knew that it was possible the one day the might need to out turn there opponent and thats why they designed it to be thrust vectoring, so no matter if its takes on a enemy in modern day tactics or older dogfighting ways, it will come out on top.

Originally posted by Murcielago
As for BVR, I believe you both are referring to the same thing.

Beyond Visual Range is exactly what it sounds like - you cant visually see it but you know its there because of your radar. and as for the degrees, that is what BVR is all about. Think of a " V " which is the radar coming out of the nose of the aircraft, the wider the " V " shape is the more that is detectable, so more is better.

No, he thought that's the ability to shoot the misille to the sides in close combat with use of helmet sight. I also think he mixed it somehow with angle of attack (see the talks about the 45 degrees or 60 degrees in future).
BTW F-22 should originally have aditional two SAR type radars on the sides of the nose (just behind the main radar). They should cover also the sides of plane. But later I heard they will be probably not installed because of costs. So were they installed or not? Does anybody know?

Originally posted by Murcielago
The SR-71 was the first stealth jet, not the U-2, the U-2 was the first spy plane and high altitude reconnaissance aircraft, but stealth was not on its capabilities list.

You seam to think that stealth is just some myth and that being invisible cannot be achieved, the Raptor (and others) use a paint scheme which makes it blend in with the sky, and has a low IR sig, and in a speck on the radar screen.

If stealth is garbage then why has there never being a B-2 shot down, and dont forget that some of there missions have being the first aircraft to fly over a enemy country, so there flight paths put them directly into harms way, and they came out unscaved.

well, take this into account, the only war in which u've used the B-2's was against Iraq, and don't be proud of beating Iraq, my own country could have done it, Iraq never had anywhere near 1 million soldiers or the 2500 tanks that you guys said, it was all propaganda to go to war with them

and Iraq, actually i don't have anyw aords for them , they just suck balls, i don't know i guess thats all i can say, Iraq didn't even know how to use their SAM's, or even their friggin airplanes, they buried them in the sand, those beautiful MiG-25's look what those fools did to them ,i hate Iraqi's, well not hate, but dislike them, but i dislike americans a little bit more because they chose president bush, jeeze haven't you guys watched farenheit 911, go Kerry all the way lol

anyways, don't be so proud about never getting one shot down. there were numerous accounts in the first Gulf War where Iraqi pilots shot their own teamates, lol

yea basically, don't be so proud, look whats happeneing now

k i'm done, gtg and do homweork