Scottish independence: Cameron and Salmond strike referendum deal

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posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 10:01 AM
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Allow me....


Originally posted by hotel1
Will Scottish people currently serving in the UK armed forces be allowed to continue to do so.


Don't see why not, any Commonwealth member can apply to join the UK Forces.


Originally posted by hotel1
Non UK citizens cannot hold high level security clearance, does that mean that Scots currently holding clearance will be downgraded, or dismissed.


If members of the Armed Forces, I don't see why not. Otherwise, no, I highly doubt it. Which is somewhat ironic as a good portion of our PM's have all been Scots...


Originally posted by hotel1
Will there be controlled border crossings.


The Government has said as much.


Originally posted by hotel1
Will flights, and sailings from Scotland no longer count as domestic, meaning that passengers would have to clear international customs, and immigration before entry.


I would imagine it would be like the EU countries. Freedom of travel etc, provided you have a valid passport.


Originally posted by hotel1
Will Scottish people working in the UK pay their taxes to London, or Edinburgh.


That would be the same as a Pole, Frenchman or German in London. Taxes are paid to the Treasury, in this case that would be the "English" Treasury.


Originally posted by hotel1
Will MPs elected to Westminster's Scottish seats be recalled, or stood down.


The seats would be dealt with like Ireland, I would imagine. Simply dissolved..


Originally posted by hotel1
If Scotland gains independence will UK tax payers pay more, less, or the same amount of tax.


That's an hard question. As it stands, at this time, money flowing North slightly exceeds any revenue raised via taxation or Oil from Scotland, so I doubt there would be any fundamental change in taxation on this basis...




posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 10:03 AM
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To add...


Originally posted by hotel1
This is and always has been a no brainer for me, if the people of Scotland want independence then they should have it, and deal with consequences good, bad, or otherwise.


As it stands, the desire for independence is pretty low, somewhere around the 25-30% mark. hasn't changed much in 50 years either and it's the same people/area's that are in support.

This whole thing has simply come about because the SNP won the last election and it is one of their defining goals. The reason they wanted the 3rd question is because they also know they will lose a simple "yes/no" vote.



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 10:13 AM
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Originally posted by stumason
Allow me....


Originally posted by hotel1
Will Scottish people currently serving in the UK armed forces be allowed to continue to do so.


Don't see why not, any Commonwealth member can apply to join the UK Forces.


Originally posted by hotel1
Non UK citizens cannot hold high level security clearance, does that mean that Scots currently holding clearance will be downgraded, or dismissed.


If members of the Armed Forces, I don't see why not. Otherwise, no, I highly doubt it. Which is somewhat ironic as a good portion of our PM's have all been Scots...


Originally posted by hotel1
Will there be controlled border crossings.


The Government has said as much.


Originally posted by hotel1
Will flights, and sailings from Scotland no longer count as domestic, meaning that passengers would have to clear international customs, and immigration before entry.


I would imagine it would be like the EU countries. Freedom of travel etc, provided you have a valid passport.


Originally posted by hotel1
Will Scottish people working in the UK pay their taxes to London, or Edinburgh.


That would be the same as a Pole, Frenchman or German in London. Taxes are paid to the Treasury, in this case that would be the "English" Treasury.


Originally posted by hotel1
Will MPs elected to Westminster's Scottish seats be recalled, or stood down.


The seats would be dealt with like Ireland, I would imagine. Simply dissolved..


Originally posted by hotel1
If Scotland gains independence will UK tax payers pay more, less, or the same amount of tax.


That's an hard question. As it stands, at this time, money flowing North slightly exceeds any revenue raised via taxation or Oil from Scotland, so I doubt there would be any fundamental change in taxation on this basis...

Thank you for your answers as I said these are questions that have just occurred to me two of your replies raise another question,

Would an independent Scotland remain in the Commonwealth?

I think there are still a lot more to be asked



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 10:19 AM
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Originally posted by hotel1
Would an independent Scotland remain in the Commonwealth?


I would imagine so, as Salmond has said he will keep the Queen..And the pound..And lots of other things they already have..Which begs the question, what's the point in this whole independence thing? Ego, mainly, it would seem.


Originally posted by hotel1
I think there are still a lot more to be asked


Indeed and Salmond has a lot to answer, still.



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 10:30 AM
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Originally posted by Dishonored
It was a poor choice of words. Independents would have been a better statement. All I'm saying is that Scotland, like England, has a rich history and you can see why some Scots would long to restore that history even though they aren't necessarily being oppressed or conquered. And that a vote, whichever way it goes, would go a long way.


For a long time now, Scotland has been very proud of it's history and is actively encouraged to be proud about it. On the flip side, to be a proud Englishman is to attract labels of "racist", "bigot" etc simply for wanting to fly the flag. If anything, it is England that needs to reclaim it's history, for Scotland has never had a problem being proud.

In fact, only today right here on ATS, some moron saw my avatar and made the assumption I was a skinhead, chanting "ENGERLAND!!" who read the Daily Mail and hated brown people.... Simply for me saying I am a proud Englishman!!

No one would ever say that to someone who had a "Proud Scotsman" tag...


Originally posted by Dishonored
I understand this is not Braveheart, but let's look at the other side of the coin. If it were Scotland that was perceived to be the head of this union, how would the English feel about it? Sure you're not being oppressed. You weren't conquered. But you've lost your queen. And when people mention the UK, all they think of is Scotland. I'd want my country back too.



Wooooah.. Hang on. There is no "head of the Union". The Union is simply that, a union, all for one etc. If anyone perceives one country to be the "head" over another, then that's an external problem, not one we created.

If anything, England is the ignored party. Scotland has a Parliament. Northern Ireland has an Assembly. Wales has an assembly. England? Nothing. Scots MP's in Westminster can vote on English Law, but the reverse is not true.

Lost our Queen? Did you not read my last post? A Scottish King ascended the throne in the 17th Century from an English monarch, prior to the Scots requesting a Union. Again, a twisted version of history being played out here.

And also, if people outside the UK think of England when the UK is mentioned, that's from their ignorance, not our doing. Our last two PM's prior to Cameron (Scottish descent btw) were Scots.

It is a total myth (and downright malicious in fact) to try and paint out like England has somehow been the superior partner. The only way this ever bear5s any fruit is by looking at Westminster and seeing most MP's coming from England, but then 75% of the UK's population is in England. it would be wholly undemocratic to give more seats (and in fact, Scots Westminster seats are disproportionate anyway) to the smaller nations.

Having said that, the Scots especially have enjoyed an enormous amount of influence in the UK and were the biggest proponents of Empire in the 19th century (while the English get the bad name for it). We've had a slew of Scots PM's over the years too (and the English get a bad name for what Blair and Brown did too)

And even after all that, most in England would be sad to see them go.
edit on 16/10/12 by stumason because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 10:49 AM
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For me i would love to see all the union stay together. Each country bring unique things to the table that help each other out.

But until it happens, which we cannot say at the moment, we will never know the outcome!

If the Scots do get independence would we still share certain thing such as the armed forces. Or would all the Scottish regiments be 'sent home' and vice versa for the Union?

Also, what about the Navy, will that be diced up so Scotland get 20% of it? I'm pretty sure the Nuclear Deterrent would be shared amongst the nations, all the effort that has been implemented by Scotland and the rest of the Union is huge. Also, is there anywhere us 'British' could host the Subs if we retained 100% control of them (Humber, Severn, Cumbria, Tyneside)?

Many things will have to be looked at.

To me, i think it's important that trade and freedom of movement between every UK country stays as it is.



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 10:58 AM
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Originally posted by ThorsBrother
If the Scots do get independence would we still share certain thing such as the armed forces. Or would all the Scottish regiments be 'sent home' and vice versa for the Union?


We still have an Irish regiment that recruits from the Republic, so I see now reason to hand over the Scots regiments. Scotland would have to build it's own forces, not pinch ours.


Originally posted by ThorsBrother
Also, what about the Navy, will that be diced up so Scotland get 20% of it? I'm pretty sure the Nuclear Deterrent would be shared amongst the nations, all the effort that has been implemented by Scotland and the rest of the Union is huge. Also, is there anywhere us 'British' could host the Subs if we retained 100% control of them (Humber, Severn, Cumbria, Tyneside)?


The Royal Navy is a direct descendent of the English Royal Navy. Nothing really changed with the Union as far as they were concerned. Again, they would need to build their own ships, not pinch ours. That much has been stated by both sides.

As for the Subs, they are built in Cumbria and our SSN's are based at Devonport (Europe's largest naval base). They have only just recently announced that the SSN's would be based at Faslane in Scotland as of 2017, but with independence that plan would be scrapped and I would imagine those that are already based there (the SSBN's) would move South.

As for the Nukes, Salmond has said he is against nuclear weapons and we certainly won't be handing them over in any case. It would be the same as the Ukriane, or Kazakhstan in the former USSR. They had old Soviet nuclear weapons for a period, but handed them back to Russia.



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 11:09 AM
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reply to post by stumason
 


Thanks for that information, i've read most of your posts in this thread finding myself nodding along.

I don't know why but I was under the assumption that the Nuke subs where based in Faslane permanently.

I suppose those of the Scottish regiments would have the choice to return to Scotland to form what would eventually be a Scottish Army or stay with the UK forces. As an ex-soldier I amazed myself that i forgot the Irish regiments!


Better put the kettle on



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 11:20 AM
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reply to post by ThorsBrother
 


All our subs are "nuke" subs, but I assume you mean the SSBN (Nuke missile subs). They are based in Faslane. The SSN's (Attack subs) are based in Devonport but they recently decided to move them to Faslane as well.

As for the regiments, I would imagine that it would simply remain "as is". If they end up not recruiting enough peeps, they might scrap them, but we still run two Irish regiments almost 100 years after they left. If I was a Scottish soldier, I would be peeved though. Not based in Scotland? Don't get a vote. It shows what Salmond and his cronies thinks of them.

It's all a bit moot anyway, I would be surprised if a Yes vote won.



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 11:22 AM
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Originally posted by kryton
What will Scotland gain from this?

What will the UK lose?

Sorry, American with no clue here. lol
edit on 10/15/1212 by kryton because: (no reason given)


I second this thought.

What will keep the Scotish economy afloat? What would their GDP be?



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 11:33 AM
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Originally posted by TDawgRex
What will keep the Scotish economy afloat? What would their GDP be?


Here's a thought for you...

If Scotland had been independent in 2007/08, bailing out RBS and HBOS would have been greater than their entire GDP.

Their GDP is around £130 Billion.



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 11:38 AM
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I hope that if Scotland does get independence then I hope it is FULL independence....

I don't want to be paying my taxes to still be subsidising free prescriptions or their schools etc etc or using our armed forces to protect them.

I've nothing against the Scottish but if that's what they want give it to them, but the whole shabang, not a half hearted subsidised independence.

BUT as others have said, as it does affect the whole UK the WHOLE UK should be voting on it.

Let the flames begin....



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 11:44 AM
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I do not regard the UK as beign democratic. I mean in the whole of Scotland we elected 1 Conservative MP and now we have a Conservative PM.

The sad reality is that when England speaks, the rest of us have to follow.



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 11:55 AM
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Originally posted by SaltireWarrior
I do not regard the UK as beign democratic. I mean in the whole of Scotland we elected 1 Conservative MP and now we have a Conservative PM.

The sad reality is that when England speaks, the rest of us have to follow.


And what about my county, South Yorkshire, out of 14 constituencies, not one went to the Conservatives. 13 went to Labour and 1 to Lib Dem. Scotland weren't the only ones who didn't give the Conservatives a single thing and they still got in because of the rest of the UK, it's just how it is.



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 12:05 PM
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reply to post by Mister_Bit
 


Freeborn the steam engine powering his pc , invented by a scotsman no doubt ! lol !

Mister bit , last time I checked a grand proportion of the UK armed forces have always been scotsmen !
so as it stands our scottish men at arms do a whole load of defending too !

Everyone likes the idea of independence its a grand thing an Ideology, salmond must think he is onto a winner with it ! but in reality its not going to go anywhere , Id gladly vote independence if it meant reform as I have previously stated but there is fat chance of that ! So when it comes to it im writing No confidence to govern on my ballot .
again freeborn and stu , on the direct democracy tip , is the real winner for the people of the UK.
I just want us all out of wars and bad economy and back to making a name for ourselves as world leaders in everything !



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 12:16 PM
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reply to post by SaltireWarrior
 


reply to post by ThorsBrother
 



Not to be funny, but isn't that how a democracy works? The majority of the country voted Tory. Just because your guy didn't get in, doesn't make it undemocratic. As it stands, the Tories had an uphill battle anyway because of the way the constituencies are rigged in favour of smaller, but Labour-dominant urban centres.

That said, the system needs a major overhaul anyway. Whichever way you cut it, the Government is never representative of the people. Many people voted for other parties which got no seats at all!



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 12:18 PM
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reply to post by SaltireWarrior
 


North East England is almost entirely Labour yet we too get dictated to by the Tory south.

If you look at a political map of the UK then it soon becomes apparent that most of the previously industrial and urban areas are predominantly Labour whilst the Conservatives seem to dominate the more agricultural and affluent areas.
For some reason the LibDems seem to do well in the more remote and rustic areas.

www.telegraph.co.uk...



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 12:26 PM
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Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by SaltireWarrior
 


reply to post by ThorsBrother
 



Not to be funny, but isn't that how a democracy works? The majority of the country voted Tory. Just because your guy didn't get in, doesn't make it undemocratic. As it stands, the Tories had an uphill battle anyway because of the way the constituencies are rigged in favour of smaller, but Labour-dominant urban centres.

That said, the system needs a major overhaul anyway. Whichever way you cut it, the Government is never representative of the people. Many people voted for other parties which got no seats at all!


That was basically what i was trying to say mate, it matters not how your area votes, what matters is the amount of areas that vote for the other side
edit on 16/10/2012 by ThorsBrother because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 12:31 PM
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reply to post by sapien82
 


The BRITISH people are resourceful, resolute, steadfast, determined, inventive, fearless and innovative.

It is time we threw aside the shackles, invested in the great people of these Isles and became a progressive and confidant Union that rewards hard work, endeavour and enterprise whilst being both compassionate and caring - in essence something we can all be proud of.

Naive?
Probably.
A pipe dream?
Maybe - but a worthy one nonetheless



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 12:36 PM
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reply to post by ThorsBrother
 


Yeah, sorry chap, I didn't read the last bit of your post..

My mistake





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