Scottish independence: Cameron and Salmond strike referendum deal

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posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 04:47 AM
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reply to post by SaltireWarrior
 


As I understand it. The UK entered the e.u as the UK stands now. Any change would/should allow them to leave.
Spooky all this talk of a referendum about the UK appears around the Same time as the Scottish one.

If that's the case its a master stroke. Cut off a few million people that cost the earth in tax and get basically nothing but a port for trident in return.

Non voyage Scotland




posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 04:53 AM
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reply to post by Six6Six
 


Me too

Sick to death of Scottish mp's nd pm's ballsing up England. Take your country and mess that up. Let's see how far your free tuition goes then when the English aren't paying for it. We can use the money for our students.



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 05:03 AM
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I would vote SNP if we truly were going Independent, but we are not. The SNP plan to join the EU, swap England for Germany. Enough said.


Tsom87



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 05:16 AM
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Originally posted by SaltireWarrior

Originally posted by OratoryHeist
16 & 17 yr olds a vote?
They must be desperate to gain independence. The majority of those will just vote against the UK government, because its 'cool' to be anti-establishment.

Genius.




Actually quite the opposite. The polls from YouGov show that 16 and 17 year olds are one of the groups least likely to vote for independence. I'm actually 17 and the majority in my school don't want independence.

The SNP have had it in their manifesto to widen the electorate to include 16 and 17 year olds for some time, and not just for this referendum.


That is actually very interesting, thanks. Like others, i was suspecting that allowing 16 & 17 year olds to vote would essentially hand the referendum to Salmond and pals but you are saying opinion in this bracket is heavily slanted in favour of the Union?

Learned something new today, thank you.



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 05:48 AM
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Originally posted by TSOM87
I would vote SNP if we truly were going Independent, but we are not. The SNP plan to join the EU, swap England for Germany. Enough said.


Tsom87


I work at each end of the country, almost literally, Aberdeenshire and Sussex.. and can't help but wonder what is really going on.. since it feels like a mess and both sides seem to be involved in creating the mess, perhaps deliberately? could it be distraction? build up an anti-EU case across the Union?

I am eyeing Ireland as I am thinking these thoughts through, so please bare with me.. what with Queenie seeming like she is bridging that gap, and seemingly giving the impression the British are not as bad as the EU.. if the UK opts out of the EU where does that place Ireland? where would it place an independent Scotland?

And by that I mean England is used a hub to transport goods to and from the continent, be it from France to Wales or Ireland to Germany, Scotland to Spain, generally the cheapest route is through the English part of Britain.

What incentive would there be for telecoms giants who have major distribution centers in Ireland to keep those centers open given that they would have to reship the goods to the continent.. and what additional cost would be incurred on the flow of those goods?

Not belittling the Scots, Welsh or Irish, but we are all tied together, with the English part of Britain within the EU it all works, cheaper overland routes compared to the more expensive sea based routes.. But with the English part of Britain outside the EU, it means either rebuilding the failing transport infrastructure and all the costs that incurs along with the additional cost of transportation on goods does not make a sound footing for new governments such as Scotlands or governments that are already in debt such as Ireland.

I have a feeling that if the English part of Britain pulls out of the EU that then pulls the other parts of these Isles out of the EU too.

So it seems to me Ireland, Scotland and Wales rely on the English part of Britain being within the EU, while losing some autonomy to the EU.. putting everyone in a worse situation and reliant not just on the EU, but the (expletives) in Westminster as well..

Seems like those (expletives) in Westminster really do hold a key to our future... and I have a feeling they know it, hence playing these games, with a Scottish referendum so far off it is possible an EU referendum might come first, which would be a game changer..

As much as the Commonwealth games could play into the Scottish psyche for independence it could also be used to reinforce the notion that all those on these Isles might be better off with the Commonwealth than the EU..

Or I might be over thinking everything.. but something does not seem or feel right..
edit on 16/10/12 by thoughtsfull because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 05:49 AM
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reply to post by drevill
 


Please do a little more research into scottish education and the student awards agency for scotland !

Also if youd like to address the issue with tuition fees then please speak to the current prime minister and pals , completely responsible for the changes to tuition fees of up to £9000 and a new interest rate of RPI plus 3%.
If it wasnt for the new government screwing everyone accept the rich then you could have free education like Scotland. However dont expect any jobs to be in place for when the students graduate and get a degree , as the government has cut the sectors which rely on funding to build new infrastructure to support the high skilled workers.

It easy enough to say that our SMP's can mess things up , when the MP's in westminster have been dragging the UK through the mud for at least a century with only the interests of the rich at heart.

I would keep in mind that its not only Scotland that has tough times ahead ! England hasnt exactly got its house in order has it !



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 05:59 AM
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reply to post by thoughtsfull
 



Yeh im interested as well to see how this will all play out with the EU and should one become independent then what will happen to the others . I know wales would likely welcome a referendum of their own as well , they have their own freedom story a man by the name of owain glyndwr

England exchanged England for Germany too remember , yeh that nice wee royal family arent born and bred are they!

With regards to import and export , the port of grangemouth where I happen to come from has recently seen a multi million pound refurb and is currently undergoing extensive improvement to transport infrastructure. It now houses the largest ASDA distribution centre for the whole of scotland the project cost £500 million and is a state of the art distribution hub for scotland. With the port upgrading their container terminal each year ,and work being done to the port to increase intake , grangemouth will now be transformed into a modern distribution hub. Mostly all of scotlands imports from Europe now come into grangemouth for distribution by rail or by road to Scotland.

A new renewable energy Biofuel power station is also to be developed in Grangemouth to provideclean fuel for scotland. These are just a couple of examples showing that the economy isnt downgrading in Scotland and that even in my small town of 13K inhabitants that new business is coming back despite economic downturn !
edit on 16-10-2012 by sapien82 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 06:04 AM
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reply to post by sapien82
 


I guess the thing that annoys me the most is , why we even have to ask for permission to become independent!
master we are old enough now to do as we see fit , can we have permission to a nation!



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 06:10 AM
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Originally posted by Six6Six
I absolutely love this peace of news.

I am English born and raised in London. Its about time we let the Scottish "people" gain independence from the UK.

I have no liking for the country of Scotland what-so-ever. They are a drain on the economy, they FAIL at everything they put their hands too and they generally suck as a country. If anything we need to put a wall around out border and block out these perpetual drug taking people from entering England again. They have zero chance of surviving and with no real economy or armed forces or even a basic grasp of the English language they will be placed at the bottom of all irrelevant things the UK and mainly England has had the displeasure of being associated with.

I can not explain in words clear enough how bad Scotland sucks at being a country. If you walk around the center of Glasgow you really get to understand the depths people can sink to in life.

And no one from Scotland come on here and talk about the oil....you will never have the run of it. Once you are independent you will be pushed out of any deal, have zero way of enfoceing anything and the only form of intelligence gathering your country will be able to conduct is how many crack pipes lie in doorways of shops and bus stops. Good riddance to Scotland.


Thank you, thank you so much for so eloquently setting down all of the reasons that Scotland should vote for independence. You have single handedly put paid to the lie that Scotland performs better in the union.

You have pointed out all of my concerns quite beautifully. IF, as they say, Scotland does better in the union, why then do we have the second highest per capita drug usage in the world (next to Iran)? Why is alcoholism killing people in such numbers? Why is our economy devoid of substance? Why has unemployment been running at eye watering levels since the late 1970's? Why is our black market as lucrative as the real economy? Aaah - it's because the union has been so good for us - of course.

I'm no fan of Alex Salmond however, simply for the opportunity to correct these imbalances, I will be voting YES. (I can already hear future generations of Scots cursing all those who vote no while they lie in their graves.)



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 06:15 AM
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Originally posted by musashi9
This will fail mainly because by the time of the referendum the U.K will have merged with Canada Australia and New Zealand ( they are already merging their embassies into one) and Scotland won't want to be alone when that happens .


Merge with Australia! The Poms! Here! Would never happen in a million years. Think it through. Why would Australia want to get in on that Debt. You know we are almost debt free? Merge?

Jeebers, where on Pluto did you get that silly idea? ROFLMAO. Even the Kangaroos are JOFL.

P



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 06:18 AM
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reply to post by sapien82
 


Scotland sought political union with England and Wales and was quite happy with The Union when it was 'enjoying' the benefits of that Union.

Now independance has become such an important issue for Scotland it's not so much that you need 'permission' but rather the framework and legalities weren't available.
Now that they've been sorted you can go ahead and exercise your right to self-determination.

The sooner it is resolved one way or another the better as far as I can tell, this uncertainty isn't helping anyone at all - apart from Salmond maybe, surely no matter what direction Scotland chooses to take he can't be the best man to lead you - these may be his last days in power.



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 06:29 AM
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Originally posted by sapien82
reply to post by thoughtsfull
 


England exchanged England for Germany too remember , yeh that nice wee royal family arent born and bred are they!

With regards to import and export , the port of grangemouth where I happen to come from has recently seen a multi million pound refurb and is currently undergoing extensive improvement to transport infrastructure. It now houses the largest ASDA distribution centre for the whole of scotland the project cost £500 million and is a state of the art distribution hub for scotland. With the port upgrading their container terminal each year ,and work being done to the port to increase intake , grangemouth will now be transformed into a modern distribution hub. Mostly all of scotlands imports from Europe now come into grangemouth for distribution by rail or by road to Scotland.

A new renewable energy Biofuel power station is also to be developed in Grangemouth to provideclean fuel for scotland. These are just a couple of examples showing that the economy isnt downgrading in Scotland and that even in my small town of 13K inhabitants that new business is coming back despite economic downturn !


What was the point in that dig re the Royalty and Germany? should I throw out that St Margaret Queen of Scotland was Saxon?

I certainly was not attacking Scotland, I live at the other end of the country, in a port with a population not much larger than your own.. and we get a lot of transport through here from Europe destined for Scotland, Ireland etc, not a great commuter route, however it is a decent commercial route that is continuing to expand.

As a person who lives in a port town I would like nothing more that to see ALL the ports on all parts of these Isles revamped, but that is not happening, mine is only just now seeing it's first true revamp since WW1, I am sure many many others are in a worse state.. which is nothing but a crying shame, and only plays into my concerns about the cost of shipping with such limited facilities.

As for my comments they where directed along the lines of personal knowledge from working within high tech distribution, and know the transports routes I mentioned, I know the additional cost going by sea as opposed to the cost saving of going overland, that puts an additional burden on the purchaser, and in dire economic times that is not a desirable move, but that is just my opinion, which is also why I think they where fools to ever allow our ports to slip into the decline in the first place.

But we are stuck with what we have... and if you want to disagree with me that is fine, I was formulating a view on this, and I am still formulating that view, which is to cope with all of Scotlands needs it requires Britain to be within the EU, it requires a relationship with the rest of Britain that is equal to that of Ireland, if the rest of Britain is outside the EU this, in my opinion will put a larger burden on Scotland, the same kind of thinking applies to Ireland.

And here is my wondering, I wonder if there is not another plan going on.. but I guess it depends on your stance, perhaps it would be more welcome for voters if Scotland was an independent state within the Commonwealth than an independent state within the EU.



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 06:31 AM
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reply to post by Freeborn
 


freeborn the man is a clown ! his personal agenda shines through and overshadows any of his supposed politcal support for a free Scotland.
Again im really not into borders and the us vs them attitudes, but I still do think we should maintain cultural identity and diversity. The whole borders and land rights and who has title to what resources is all very feudal.

I just want the reform , whether we have an independent scotland or not , if its a YES then I want reform and Salmonds head on a pike on the walls of stirling castle , If its a no then I want reform and salmonds, camerons and that other gimps head on pikes !

You'd think with the surname cameron , he would be more friendly to scots!



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 06:36 AM
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I'm astounded that people are going to vote for independence without even knowing how it will effect them and their families.

There seems to be lots of 'fantasy' being used as if the mere act of breaking away from England will make Scotland a better place.

There's far more resentment on the Scottish side towards the English than that of the English hating the Scottish. I fear that will be balanced as the debate heats up, I mean come on Scott's, if the English were wanting to break away from you and we were going to vote on it, you'd be a little miffed at us.

If Scotland does vote for independence I hope we the English 'let them have their cake to eat' but make sure they pay for the cake and clean up after themselves too.



edit on 16-10-2012 by Tykonos because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 06:38 AM
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reply to post by sapien82
 


That last part made me smile and reminds me of the Jack Cade rebellion where two of the Kings minsters heads where chopped off as the rebels sought to wrest control of the Tower of London, they put the heads of poles and made them kiss.
edit on 16/10/12 by thoughtsfull because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 06:44 AM
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reply to post by christina-66
 




Thank you, thank you so much for so eloquently setting down all of the reasons that Scotland should vote for independence. You have single handedly put paid to the lie that Scotland performs better in the union.


So you take one fool at his word and use it as vindication to vote for independance?

And do you really think independance will prove a magic cure all for all the ill's within Scottish society?

For the record;
Drug use is rampant and spiralling in many areas of the UK outside of Scotland - the drug of choice may differ from region to region.
Alcohol use if higher in several regions of England than it is in Scotland.
The UK's economy as a whole is stagnant and 'devoid of substance' and unemployment is rampant here in North East England as it is in the North West and other regions within the UK.
And things are that crap here that even the Black Market is suffering - no-one can make a penny because there simply is no money about.

Now I'm not saying that thing's won't be better in an independant Scotland and I'm not saying there'll be worse - but one thing is certain, Scotland isn't the only place that has it's problems, depsite what many may think it's not unique with it's problems.

Personally i think we have a better chance of changing The Union and our respective nations and regions into something we can be proud of by standing together - but it's your choice.



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 06:48 AM
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Pretty pointless, as intelligent Scots all know such a nonsensical decision as leaving the United Kingdom would be a financial death sentence amongst many other things.



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 06:48 AM
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IF, as they say, Scotland does better in the union, why then do we have the second highest per capita drug usage in the world (next to Iran)? Why is alcoholism killing people in such numbers? Why is our economy devoid of substance? Why has unemployment been running at eye watering levels since the late 1970's? Why is our black market as lucrative as the real economy? Aaah - it's because the union has been so good for us - of course.
reply to post by christina-66
 





You will be voting YES after saying that?!


Are you saying an independent Scotland will somehow make all those you've mentioned into entrepreneurs?

Or will Scotland will create vast amounts of Public Sector jobs?
edit on 16-10-2012 by Tykonos because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 06:53 AM
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reply to post by sapien82
 




I just want the reform ,


As do I with a passion.



whether we have an independent scotland or not , if its a YES then I want reform and Salmonds head on a pike on the walls of stirling castle , If its a no then I want reform and salmonds, camerons and that other gimps head on pikes !


A sight worth beholding!



You'd think with the surname cameron , he would be more friendly to scots!


As PM of the UK you'd have thought he'd have at least the slightest consideration for the cares, concerns and well being of the British people - but quite clearly he has nothing but contempt for us!



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 07:10 AM
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Originally posted by Ramcheck


A few bullet points on why I will vote Yes;

.Trident submarines will be moved to England, fantastic, stop poisoning our waters and marine life.
.No more unelected Eton educated Tory Lords.
.Our top businessmen tell us it's the only option for recovery and economic growth.
.I'll get a nice shiny new Scottish Passport.
.The 'Union' flag will be removed from all buildings north of the border, great, because I find it highly offensive.


Alba gu bràth.


. There will be a Scottish Saltire at next Olympic Games ...





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