Mom calls 911 to help manage autitictic teen/ cops kill him

Originally posted by ~Vixen~
The cop was faced with a violent, armed suspect, known to resist officers, who posed a threat to his own family, had supposedly choked his own mother, refused to drop his weapons when ordered to do so, and continued to approach the officer even after being ordered to the ground. The officer had reason to believe that this guys was very dangerous, and that his own welfare was potentially at stake.

Had the suspect complied and put down his weapons, or had he complied and dropped to the ground when ordered, the officer could have handled things win less than lethal force. Unfortunately the suspect didn't comply, and we're left with the tragedy that unfolded.

Again, what crime was he suspect of? Being autistic?

Originally posted by votan
reply to post by Ghostx

 

well the woman called the cops. said her son is autistic and that he is carrying hedge clippers. autistic is a nice way to say retarded.. so the kid has mental issues.. he is not just some random maniac running around a neighborhood. the cop was called to help handle him not kill him.

The cop knew there was an autistic kid with hedge clippers running around WHO HAS A FLIPPIN MENTAL ISSUE.
what part of autistic does the cop not understand. He could have handled ti differently but he decided to cap the kid.

and you think that is 100% okay??

The police was perhaps autistic too. That is a nice way to say retarded. We don't need ret.. autistic people armed with heavy guns in the police force.

Originally posted by EvilSadamClone
reply to post by Unity_99

 

It could mean they stop responding with instant lethal force in cases with austic or special needs children. They may all be re-educated and forced to device other means of responding.

I think you mean devise a non-lethal device.

They already do have several. It's called a tazer.

And as i said, it doesn't matter what device a cop has at their disposal, the cop haters are going to whine at everything they do because a cop can do no right in their eyes.

Even handed people look at the facts of the case first and don't look at anything else.

But yes, i do agree that cops should be trained to recognize people with disabilities and use different means to deal with them.

Even at that though, there will be some cases where a mentally or even a physically disabled persone can be a threat to public safety and no amount of peaceful means will stop him.

I wouldnt have tasered him. I don't mean using devices. I mean using speech, negotiation and a good tackle job if needed.

Originally posted by Unity_99

Originally posted by EvilSadamClone
reply to post by Unity_99

 

It could mean they stop responding with instant lethal force in cases with austic or special needs children. They may all be re-educated and forced to device other means of responding.

I think you mean devise a non-lethal device.

They already do have several. It's called a tazer.

And as i said, it doesn't matter what device a cop has at their disposal, the cop haters are going to whine at everything they do because a cop can do no right in their eyes.

Even handed people look at the facts of the case first and don't look at anything else.

But yes, i do agree that cops should be trained to recognize people with disabilities and use different means to deal with them.

Even at that though, there will be some cases where a mentally or even a physically disabled persone can be a threat to public safety and no amount of peaceful means will stop him.

I wouldnt have tasered him. I don't mean using devices. I mean using speech, negotiation and a good tackle job if needed.

You mean like most normal people would? That is not police protocol.

Originally posted by SubAce
Never involve the police in anything, unless you've witnessed a murder.

Not even then. That would just make you a murder suspect, giving them a good reason to shoot you. Better safe than sorry.

so everyone here thinks that just because a person is autistic that hes no danger to anyone? or unable to attack anyone?

usually i agree that all these cop stories we are reading lately are corrupt cowboys who cant wait to fire their gun.
but this one seems to be a legit shooting of a legit dangerous person.

just because the kid wasnt a criminal dosnt mean he wasnt a danger... the mother herself called because she feared the "weapons" his son obviously wouldnt put down. he even had them until the police showed up.

now what is the cop supposed to do when someone calls about a weapon issue? wait in the car and shout to him? he got out to assist the mother. the boy went after the cop...


at least from what we can read it all seems fair.
im usually quick to join the police hate around here, but not this time.

Originally posted by moniker

Originally posted by samkent
reply to post by smyleegrl

 

Plus as far as I know police are trained 'Shoot to kill" not wound him a bit.

As far as i know army soldiers are trained "Shoot to kill" not wound the enemy a bit.

The police is quite the opposite.

However many of the new recruits in police are ex-soldiers so that the police can cut down on training.

There is no such thing as "shoot to wound." Any gunshot is deadly force in use. It is either justfied or it is not, but this silly shoot to wound stuff only exists in the movies. If a bullet goes down range, it is deadly force.

Originally posted by Brandon88
No more gun's for police if they want to be cops then they can be officers with tazers, pepper spray, and batons like the bobbies in London. At this point in time they don't show themselfs capable or responsible enough to handle fire arms as well as executing extremely poor judgement.

The Metropolitan police in London recently considered making guns part of the standard equipment for patrolling police officers, however they quickly withdrew that consideration when a questionnaire sent out within the police force showed that around 99.8% of the officers DIDN'T want to carry guns, as it would make their job harder, not easier.

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by moniker

Originally posted by samkent
reply to post by smyleegrl

 

Plus as far as I know police are trained 'Shoot to kill" not wound him a bit.

As far as i know army soldiers are trained "Shoot to kill" not wound the enemy a bit.

The police is quite the opposite.

However many of the new recruits in police are ex-soldiers so that the police can cut down on training.

There is no such thing as "shoot to wound." Any gunshot is deadly force in use. It is either justfied or it is not, but this silly shoot to wound stuff only exists in the movies. If a bullet goes down range, it is deadly force.

That's why I didn't mention shooting and police in the same sentence at all. Police should use their gun as the last resort, not as the first. Police is not the army, however much they try to act like one.

Originally posted by paxnatus
reply to post by NavyDoc

 

Perhaps you should educate yourself on Autism and dealing with kids on the spectrum, since the numbers are very prevalent world wide!! He was not a man! He was developmentally delayed meaning in reality the officer shot and killed an 11 or 12 year old!! Pathetic and lazy!

Pax

Nonsense. Autism runs the gamut from barely ascertainable to full on Rain Man. This individual was in a regular highschool and had a job thus, if he was truely autistic (athough that diagnosis does get thrown around an awful lot) he was certainly a high functioning one.

Regardless, he was 18, a physically full grown individual and thus was just as capable to kill or injure someone as any other adult.

Originally posted by newcovenant

Originally posted by seamus
reply to post by newcovenant

 

I guess those new bullets they're issuing don't work on arms or legs anymore.

Yeah...Apparently they can still walk unless it's a headshot.

Yeah, and a GSW to the femoral artery won't kill anybody.

Originally posted by moniker
That's why I didn't mention shooting and police in the same sentence at all. Police should use their gun as the last resort, not as the first. Police is not the army, however much they try to act like one.

I can agree with that in concept. What I've been trying to do is dispel this very unsafe and irresponsible myth. Every time a bullet goes down range, deadly force is being engaged and should be treated as such.

reply to post by killette82


Sure, a state or local agency will go through the motions of an investigation just to keep the angry citizens appeased, and then most likely, there's a little bit of administartive slapping on the wrist at most, and then the cop is back on the streets. ( The recent incident in Michigan...3 cops blow that guy away without even attempting to talk him down. Where are they? Back on the streets. ). Cops in LA slam a nurse to the ground for giving them some back talk, and then they give each other a HIGH FIVE. A cop in MN beats a drunk guy to the ground - who's in a wheel chair! Another cop shoots a guy with a pen - who is also in a wheel chair - partially paralyzed...
Seriously, how are we supposed to "respect" you guys when we see this type of behavior over and over?
Really, based on all of this EVIDENCE, and much, much more, what do you guys truly expect of us?
You expect us to fear and obey you in all circumstances unquestionably, upon fear of death right there on the spot, that's what.

Do you realize that police agencies across the country have appealed to YouTube to censor videos of police abuses? Why is this? If we, the citizens are expected to obey the law, and submit to having our actions be accounted for, then why are the police so afraid of transparency? Why do police demand ( upon threat of arrest and more ) that the public not video tape them or take THEIR pictures while they abuse their positions of authority? We could show you tape after tape of police brutalizing people in every state of this country, and from around the world.
Unarmed, non-violent women in NY being pepper sprayed at the Occupy protests ( in a penned-in "secure area" no less ), students in Sacramento, on and on. Too many to count.
The question is, what's at work here? I can tell you; The mentality of the police. A "must win" attitude. The attitude that says you must be obeyed and shown deferrence no matter how you treat the individuals in any given situation. The cops can be cocky, arrogant and insulting, but as a citizen, if you talk back or speak your mind, you're going to jail at the very least least, but most likely beaten into submission first. ( With a police-sanctioned HIGH FIVE at the end ).

In all fairness, I don't mean to attack you personally, for all I know you're a stand up guy. But let me ask you an honest question that only you can answer within your own heart; if you saw your co-workers abuse their authority, would you turn them in, risking the social and professional snubbing that would ensue, or would you turn a blind eye to it, and just let it go?......The Path Of Least Resistance.
I'm not asking you to actually answer the question here in public, just in your heart. Only in your own mind.
Besides, I don't want to put you in a position where you're just going to have to lie to me anyway.

Originally posted by EvilSadamClone
If the cops tasered him the cop haters would still whine about the cop using a taser. No matter what cops do, the haters gonna hate and whine. They can't help themselves, I suppose.

This is a tragic situation. I don't necessarily see police abuse in this situation, but I don't know for certain, and I will not give in to a knee-jerk response.

I do want to see an investigation. But I don't know if that investigation will do any good.

Dear ESC,
I think any parent would much rather have their son tasered than dead. Dead is dead. There is no coming back from it, generally speaking. This moment of aggression was just that, a moment. The kid was out of control because he was very sick, not because he was a criminal.

Anyway, as I said before, a LOT led up to this moment - both the aggression, and the police action. It's like suicide - 20/20 hindsight can shine the light on the path to this very horrible and tragic situation, but the permanent damage is already done - there is no helping it now.

I'll also say that there is a lot of unconscious prejudice regarding special needs kids - a lot of fear, just because there is no general understanding of them as human beings. This is not just a "bleeding heart" argument, either, as I know just how challenging and potentially dangerous kids with autism and other developmental disabilities can be. I also know how incredibly beautiful, sweet, generous of spirit and utterly lacking in prejudice my own son with severe autism is, on a regular basis. He is intelligent, too, in a narrow way, behind and underneath all of his huge challenges.

I deeply hope we can find both prevention and some kind of truly workable medication, or better yet, a cure.

peace to you,

AB

reply to post by newcovenant

Tells me Police need some additional and special training dealing with autistic people, disabled, impaired and handicapped people who are in obvious distress and may even appear threatening.

Not siding with the cops on this but...mentally ill people can be life threatening at times, when they fear for their life they become very strong and can even hurt the biggest and strongest of men. Let's say a mentally ill person fell off a ledge and you caught him by his arm. He would be so fearful for his life and go nuts and pull you over with their incredible strength.

So mentally ill people can very much be threatening given the right circumstances. When they panic they can be unstoppable.

In a job where you're constantly targeted by people because of the badge you wear on your chest, you tend to be a little skittish. Here's the thing that people don't understand when they hear these tragic stories. This cop is used to his life being threatened and using lethal force to protect himself.

Was anyone actually there to see the event unfold? No, we all got it from a news source, right? Okay, so we don't have the full story then. And don't come at me like you know better, you don't. This cop obviously felt his life was being threatened. The kid was coming at him with a hammer and hedge clippers. Really? Let's just try non-lethal force as he's bashing my head in and slicing and dicing with those clippers. That seems a lot more logical than stop the threat before the threat stops you. For all you know, this was a good cop who made a judgement call that has now put his career in jeopardy. He could have been responsible for saving a bus full of children hours earlier before this incident. Put yourself in this cop's shoes. If you have someone coming at you with a hammer and hedge clippers, not responding to commands to stop as you have a gun pointed at them, what are you going to do? You're going to neutralize the threat before the headlines read "Autistic child murders police officer with hammer and hedge clippers."

reply to post by Unity_99

I appreciate your compassion, Unity.

Having a great deal of experience with this, I can say that we don't know the boys' capacity to understand speech, especially in an enraged moment, so it was most likely NOT a willful non-compliance to not "drop" the weapons or "get down on the ground." Kids with autism often have trouble following one-step commands when they are perfectly calm! So speech itself is such a challenge that it may not have any effect. Tone of voice and a calm demeanor might, however, help.

If I were to offer a real and better solution to what happened, the police could have employed a team approach this this child - certainly more than one officer - I would guess three would be the best. They would need to know "take down" holds and have two of them come at him from behind, one have their head tucked against the boy's back to avoid being head-butted while grabbing his arms to his sides. The other officer would help to remove the weapons from his hands and they would both bring him to the ground, while he was being distracted by someone in front of him, who was speaking in a calm tone, using the boy's name, and ready to dodge the heck out of the way. Getting the boys arms and legs under control and getting him restrained, the "weapons" away, etc. are physical techniques that a team of officers should be well versed in. A medical team could also have been there, ready with a sedation injection immediately once the boy was restrained (or if he got shot, gee, that also would have been nice...). He could have then been wrestled onto a "boogie board" and strapped down for his own and other's safety. His mom could have been involved then in talking to him, soothing him, and going with him to the hospital, whatever might be of comfort. It sounds rough, but it's better than dead!

The boy would be taken to a hospital and his meds reevaluated and adjusted. A social worker would work out how the boy could be kept on his meds with the family, or if other arrangements needed to be made. Solutions could be found for this, one way or another. If a child is a danger to himself or others, our ham-handed best effort right now is unfortunately medication, though I hope in the future we can do more than dull the symptoms. I'm guessing that's more what the mother had in mind when she called.

But all of this requires training and experience that this police force did not seem to employ, or perhaps even know about.

peace, Unity,
AB

reply to post by Echo3Foxtrot

Here's the thing that people don't understand when they hear these tragic stories. This cop is used to his life being threatened and using lethal force to protect himself

Who singed up to be the cop in the first place. Don't tell me they actually thought it would be a desk job? There is a great saying my grandfather says that would go good with this...If your out looking for trouble...your going to find it. That's exactly what cops do...so please don't make excuses for them.

One more post, my dear ATSers. From the heart...



People with autism are people. It is incredibly hard for them to find their way in this world. This is not to excuse aggressive behaviors or to pretend a person with autism can't be aggressive - they most certainly can be, but I plead with everyone to see people afflicted with autism as just like you somewhere trapped inside. To look at Carly below, you'd see someone on the outside just like my son - you'd think he wasn't really "there." But she IS there. And she still has weird behaviors. She is still at times self-injurious or has "stemming" behaviours, etc. But she is fully a worthy, very vulnerabale, human being.



Carly's story:


Carly's example of what its like to have autism:


peace,
AB

reply to post by newcovenant


The Cop fired his gun six times!! WTF! It's called a tazer dip $h!t

I had 4 grandmal seizures when I was 19, my mom had to call 911 to help control me because I was violently out of control after each seizure, tossing couches and the likes. It took 2 cops and 2 EMT's to subdue and cuff me, they didn't use guns, mase, or tazers, they used good ol' fashioned brute force. After tossing them around like dolls for several minutes they restrained me and were able to get me to the hospital. This happened 6 years ago and up until a year ago I had no feeling in my pinky fingers from the nerve damage the cuffs did.

My purpose for this story is not to ramble about my past but rather show that even when all hell breaks loose, these emergency officials didn't lose their cool, they even took the time to visit me in the Hospital after I woke up from a week long coma.

The official that shot this kid should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and thrown behind bars for years to come. This kid didn't even lay a finger on the officer and he pulled the trigger 6 times!!!!