Isn't the opposite of materialism - death worship?, page 4

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reply posted on 30-9-2012 @ 09:54 AM by AthlonSavage

I created thread "Is love really just the worship of a material object" unknowingly the same time the OP made this thread. Kinda like me and OP are at opposite ends of the magnet. ill be the optpmistic end and say the opposite of materialism is enlightenment. Enlighten shouldnt be death worship. Enlightenment is a shift of awarness to a higher level. On that note im gonna enligthen myself with several hours of sleep.

reply posted on 30-9-2012 @ 10:05 AM by Itisnowagain

reply to post by AthlonSavage

Yes, you realize you are awareness (spirit) and no longer believe you are a thing (material object).
Nothing dies but belief.

edit on 30-9-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 30-9-2012 @ 10:26 AM by DeReK DaRkLy

reply to post by arpgme

If you do not believe in materialism , and even believe that it is evil or wrong, then shouldn't death be something that is desired as an escape from the material world?

As far as I can tell, the material world exists as a distraction, a refuge, a haven from
Death, emptiness, void, space-less vacuum, unconsciousness, timelessness.

Likewise, death exists as a haven from the seemingly chaotic material world.

This is the burden of existence. All creation, movement, change, is a living painting on the empty canvas of death. But it is a necessary backdrop, because without a canvas, there is nowhere to paint.

-The seemingly unenlightened focus on their material gains, their bodies, the bodies of others.
-The seemingly enlightened focus on nature, their mind, their potentials, the minds of others.
-The seemingly transcended see the empty canvas, and all passing events as transient.

These are all just modes of being, one being no better than another...

-All falsehoods are someone else's reality.
-All realities are someone else's falsehood.
-All unities get divided into modes.
-All modes are part of the grand unity.

(Once you know the dharma, you can speak about it any way you like.)

edit on 30-9-2012 by DeReK DaRkLy because: trpoz

reply posted on 30-9-2012 @ 10:32 AM by Johnathanandheather

reply to post by arpgme

Being pious doesn't mean your a Buddhist. Check out catholic monks who directs their passion toward the spirit and word of The Lord Jesus Christ. Or what about hasidic(pious) Jews who wear one type of clothing, no tv etc but direct their passion toward practice and study of the law and participating in all the 613 mitzvah and joys of family and community.

reply posted on 30-9-2012 @ 10:53 AM by IAmD1

If materialism is the worship of matter then the opposite might be not worshiping anything.
Death is not the opposite to matter it is the transformation of matter from one integrated animated form into non animated deteriorated form. As the opposite to worship is not more worship.

In either case worshiping anything is an imbalanced focus. For example someone who is standing still may have to focus on motion in order to get moving. This is not imbalanced but if the person is already moving at top speed then focusing on moving faster would be imbalanced, and instead the person might want to focus on slowing down or stopping to get back to a sustainable balance between motion and stand still.

By the same token someone who is completely immersed in materialism might have to focus on worshiping nothing to break out of the one sided focus before being able to land in a more balanced view that uses materialism and nothing(ism) as and when they are relevant. It is relevant to be focused on materialism when gathering wood to make a fire but it is not relevant when you are trying to clear your mind.

just thoughts
much love

reply posted on 30-9-2012 @ 10:59 AM by Henassy

My take is that thereis two pole, two extremes. Material forces(yang) and Spiritual forces(yin)

When they are in balance they sustain life, when they are out of balance problems occur.

Christianity and many other true doctrines advocate the Crossing(the cross) and harmonising of these forces.

then there are sects which worship the material aspect (satanic) and the sects which worship the spritual side (luciferic).

The truth path is understanding, loving and apreciating both poles.

reply posted on 30-9-2012 @ 11:04 AM by Henassy

reply to post by Itisnowagain

good explanation...

people have to experince different state of perceptions before they can understand som key issues. As long as the mind is entangled their will be no understanding...

reply posted on 30-9-2012 @ 02:19 PM by arpgme

Whether you identify with "The Body" or "The Spirit" you are still identifying with some THING.

Physicality is Matter and Energy, and Spirit is Energy - it isstill something "physical". Probably it has more freedom because it can think something and go there or have it, but what are these "thoughts"? It is PHYSICAL things. The fact that it is the mind thinking of PHYSICAL things does not change the fact that it is still about materialism.

Even if I am just the observer and I am observing this life, it does not change the fact that the pain is still felt and happens. If the body burns, whether I am just an "observer" or not - the pain is still felt.

Telling a person who is being tortured that they are just the "awareness" will not ease the pain.

reply posted on 30-9-2012 @ 03:15 PM by IAmD1

Originally posted by arpgme
Whether you identify with "The Body" or "The Spirit" you are still identifying with some THING.

Physicality is Matter and Energy, and Spirit is Energy - it isstill something "physical". Probably it has more freedom because it can think something and go there or have it, but what are these "thoughts"? It is PHYSICAL things. The fact that it is the mind thinking of PHYSICAL things does not change the fact that it is still about materialism.

Even if I am just the observer and I am observing this life, it does not change the fact that the pain is still felt and happens. If the body burns, whether I am just an "observer" or not - the pain is still felt.

Telling a person who is being tortured that they are just the "awareness" will not ease the pain.

I disagree, dissociation often a spontaneous reaction to abuse or regular repeat or chronic pain is a disconnect between mind and body which stops you from experiencing and to some extent processing pain. This is very much like the state you are in when you are aware of being the observer as supposed to the body. Your mind disassociates itself from the body which means it has stopped caring what happens to the body and as a result do not respond or recognize pain in the same way you would if you did not dissociate. Pain are just signals to let you know your body tissue is suffering damage. It is not something that has to be acknowledged and is only important if you care what happens to the body.

It is not only to do with chemical signals in the body it is also to do with focus. I have used the power of dissociation or distracted focus in the past to avoid and reduce physical pain - this was in the days long before I knew anything of philosophy or meditation. I believe it is a natural instinct to do this built into all beings, and maybe the reason it is so is because it is the true state of being? Maybe because some how instinctively we recognize this body is not the end all and be all of being?

As for torture I would not like to comment on that in terms of what would help someone in such a situation other than getting the person out of that situation.

reply posted on 30-9-2012 @ 06:59 PM by AthlonSavage

reply to post by arpgme

mabey the spirit is something with an intelligence and its very mysterious. The question then becomes whats its interest in the material life that permeates the universe. And whats the spirits relationship with death. It is possible the spirit has no interest in death. When we think about life and ask the big why questions we are doing within the construct of our human intelligence and consciouness. Therefore even when where not speculating and think we have all the facts we may not have much at all because we can see only so far. Just thought i would throw this into the mix as absolute reality is an absolute mystery.

I think the idea of is non materialism death worship or is materialism a obsessive love are one and the same things because that sit different ends of a band that is the ordinary human awarness. I think the connection with the real mystery is something that requires going beyond the normal band of awareness and im not referring to death, im saying this has to be done in a completely alive physical condition.

edit on 30-9-2012 by AthlonSavage because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 3-10-2012 @ 07:35 PM by awake1234

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by awake1234

If material existence is thought of as 'things', then there is no actual 'things' - 'things' are just thoughts.

∞
thanks this is a good one
though it seems contradictory to refer to 'present' in exclusionary terms, when the present moment is comprised of 'things' making the experience possible...and by definition this 'present' becomes another 'thing' the 'moment' its referred to.
this conundrum appears predicated upon the dualistic nature of "language", which is inherently as a referent system, always describing 'things'...in which case...everything is a thing

∞LOVE

mayallsoulsbefree∞

reply posted on 3-10-2012 @ 07:48 PM by rickymouse

reply to post by arpgme

There is a lot of room between materialism and death worship. Desiring things you don't really need is what materialism is. I need food, shelter, water, and something to do. If you have a good reason for having something than it is not materialsim. I need a coffee pot to make coffee, it doesn't have to be an extravagant pot it just has to work and be safe. I'm not going to sell my soul for a coffee pot either, I could use any pot if needed. That is just an example. I own more junk than many people, but I used it for working. That is different than buying something to show off and make you look better to others.

reply posted on 3-10-2012 @ 09:01 PM by arpgme

reply to post by rickymouse

There is no need. Need arises from want.

For example:

Without the desire to survive, there is no need for food or water.

Without the desire to buy things, there is no need for money...

Need only exists when Want exists.

reply posted on 3-10-2012 @ 10:42 PM by rickymouse

reply to post by arpgme

The desire to survive is a way of nature, not a want. Not wanting to survive is a want. Needs are necessary for survival. Wants aren't necessary for survival.

reply posted on 3-10-2012 @ 11:44 PM by arpgme

reply to post by rickymouse

Desire is want. So a desire to survive is a want.

Wanting to do something is a desire - not wanting to do something is NOT a desire.
"to not want" is not the same as "to want the opposite of" or "to try to get rid of".

Needs are only necessary to survival because the DESIRE is to live. So of course, the needs will stem from that. Doesn't change the fact that the "need" is only there because of the DESIRE/WANT to survive.

reply posted on 4-10-2012 @ 12:54 AM by TucoTheRat

reply to post by arpgme

I see this as more a subject of understanding rather than a question about worship.

Everyone dies it's as simple as that. Some people are afraid of death and see it as an end. Some people look for ways to stay alive as long as they can, the search for immortality.

Some people are not afraid of death and have come to the understanding that it is the biggest part of life. The next great adventure. Immortality in the flesh is as silly as trying to become immortal in a video game there is more to death than an end just like when you get killed in a video game you get up to eat a sandwich or take a piss, go to work, spend time with family, a day at the beach with the kids surfing, an errand you need to take care of.

Those who don't enjoy life enough to accept that there are more important things than the material even while in the flesh have entirely missed the point to life itself.

Love is not a material thing, nor is trust or forgiveness, those who care more about looks, cars, houses, toys, and bars than most free and immaterial things talking to dad, being there for Christmas or what ever important family gathering, or just hugging your kids worship dust which is just as silly as worshiping death.

Death is a part of life and life is not dust so look deeper than the surface of the skin and you will see the true value of the immaterial.

The Rat.

reply posted on 4-10-2012 @ 01:40 AM by ExpansiveMind

Would worshiping the boundless and infinite side of you count towards death? To become enlightened when we die seems to be the truth I have gathered over time, and maybe if you reach said state you no longer see a purpose for the physical anchor and move on to the infinite and eternal ocean of being.

reply posted on 4-10-2012 @ 01:41 AM by daskakik

In order for your idea to be correct then the spirit must be made of light. I personally don't think it is. I know that there are many who claim that is what it is but I think that it is just an artifact of observation and not what consciousness is made of.

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