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Isn't the opposite of materialism - death worship?

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posted on Sep, 29 2012 @ 06:19 PM
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If you do not believe in materialism , and even believe that it is evil or wrong, then shouldn't death be something that is desired as an escape from the material world?

Even Spirit is physical - it is light (energy) the same stuff making up the matter. The only way to be absolutely against materialism is to train yourself to be in "nothingness/formlessness" and little by little letting the spirit (desire/passion) die as well as the body (physical urges). Letting go of desire (physical or spiritual). Then becoming "formless - without any emotion or desire at all".

What do you think about this? Isn't the opposite of materialism really "formless worship" or "death worship"?

Worshiping life will only continue desire and physicality as a spirit (light/energy) will always combine with matter (body - reincarnation). Even if it is a "more loving world" it is still material...

(Not encouraging anything just asking the question)




posted on Sep, 29 2012 @ 06:27 PM
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reply to post by arpgme
 


You mean idealism. The idealism vs. materialsim debate has been going on between philosophers for a millennia. I'm glad to see your logic points you in the right direction.

To disregard the physics of the universe as illusory is to disregards oneself in the process.



posted on Sep, 29 2012 @ 06:29 PM
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reply to post by arpgme
 


Balance is always healthy. Facing the 'dark side' is very much necessary sometimes. I find delving deep into 'Death' can yield very much for the Life here and now. All is ever dying, and yet also being reborn. There is no end to either. Sometimes repressing those 'demons' can make them far worse than facing them.



posted on Sep, 29 2012 @ 06:29 PM
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Originally posted by arpgme
If you do not believe in materialism , and even believe that it is evil or wrong, then shouldn't death be something that is desired as an escape from the material world?

Even Spirit is physical - it is light (energy) the same stuff making up the matter. The only way to be absolutely against materialism is to train yourself to be in "nothingness/formlessness" and little by little letting the spirit (desire/passion) die as well as the body (physical urges). Letting go of desire (physical or spiritual). Then becoming "formless - without any emotion or desire at all".

What do you think about this? Isn't the opposite of materialism really "formless worship" or "death worship"?

Worshiping life will only continue desire and physicality as a spirit (light/energy) will always combine with matter (body - reincarnation). Even if it is a "more loving world" it is still material...

(Not encouraging anything just asking the question)


the object would not be to be absolutely against materialism. but to denounce it to the point where you are no longer worshipping it any more. where it has no grip on your soul. balance would be the key strategy to the game. so materialism must be respected just as equally as spirituality once u are balanced in thought. but in your unbalanced state clinging to materialism and indeed worshipping it will require to begin process of denouncing so that you will travel in a direction away from materialism. until you are back at the centre. here your spirit will be exposed to you, and the requirements of the material world not forgotten.



posted on Sep, 29 2012 @ 06:33 PM
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If you intend to master matter, rather than worship it and let materialism have power over you... then you seek to be a master in life, not death.

You can't really condemn those who try to turn away from being material in our current state of affairs.

It is mixing spirituality, pragmatics and economics and that's kind of a punch below the belt to those who simply desire change and not death. that's like saying they're depressed or something and just want to die like they have mental problems.

Just because materialism is the way it is now, doesn't mean it's SUPPOSED to be this way. We could do much better... have less waste, more understanding of sciences, more appreciation for our resources... the fact is if you look closely, those who try to abstain from being overly materialistic... actually just have more of an appreciation for what exists and have loftier ideas concerning it's potential.

They often see the wasteful and materialistic as a serious detriment to existence on so many levels... so many levels. They are even *mentally* exhausting of *theoretical* resources. I find they often love to waste the time of others, have little consideration, love to murky waters and complicate life in general... the list goes on and on. I think they are an inefficient disease to any ecosystem and they simply need to learn a better way on all fronts. We could all use a little practice in more and more efficiency in probably almost every aspect of our lives... but greed and fear doesn't want you thinking that way.
edit on 29-9-2012 by NotAnAspie because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 29 2012 @ 06:42 PM
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Originally posted by NotAnAspie
If you intend to master matter, rather than worship it and let materialism have power over you... then you seek to be a master in life, not death.

You can't really condemn those who try to turn away from being material in our current state of affairs.

It is mixing spirituality, pragmatics and economics and that's kind of a punch below the belt to those who simply desire change and not death. that's like saying they're depressed or something and just want to die like they have mental problems.

Just because materialism is the way it is now, doesn't mean it's SUPPOSED to be this way. We could do much better... have less waste, more understanding of sciences, more appreciation for our resources... the fact is if you look closely, those who try to abstain from being overly materialistic... actually just have more of an appreciation for what exists and have loftier ideas concerning it's potential.

They often see the wasteful and materialistic as a serious detriment to existence on so many levels... so many levels. They are even *mentally* exhausting of *theoretical* resources. I find they often love to waste the time of others, have little consideration, love to murky waters and complicate life in general... the list goes on and on. I think they are an inefficient disease to any ecosystem and they simply need to learn a better way on all fronts. We could all use a little practice in more and more efficiency in probably almost every aspect of our lives... but greed and fear doesn't want you thinking that way.
edit on 29-9-2012 by NotAnAspie because: (no reason given)


I agree with what you say, but I think the OP is discussing philosophical materialism, not the acquiring of comforts that materialism is sometimes known for. A true materialist would put value on the physical and would thus aim to protect it.



posted on Sep, 29 2012 @ 06:47 PM
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reply to post by arpgme
 


I propose the opposite is the void more so than death. Death is the advisor however the subtle, out of spectrum energies and matter would be the antithesis of materialism and is void from, or more literally absent the material world.

Good thread. I'd much rather contemplate these things than blinky box nonsense.



posted on Sep, 29 2012 @ 06:59 PM
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Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne

Originally posted by NotAnAspie
If you intend to master matter, rather than worship it and let materialism have power over you... then you seek to be a master in life, not death.

You can't really condemn those who try to turn away from being material in our current state of affairs.

It is mixing spirituality, pragmatics and economics and that's kind of a punch below the belt to those who simply desire change and not death. that's like saying they're depressed or something and just want to die like they have mental problems.

Just because materialism is the way it is now, doesn't mean it's SUPPOSED to be this way. We could do much better... have less waste, more understanding of sciences, more appreciation for our resources... the fact is if you look closely, those who try to abstain from being overly materialistic... actually just have more of an appreciation for what exists and have loftier ideas concerning it's potential.

They often see the wasteful and materialistic as a serious detriment to existence on so many levels... so many levels. They are even *mentally* exhausting of *theoretical* resources. I find they often love to waste the time of others, have little consideration, love to murky waters and complicate life in general... the list goes on and on. I think they are an inefficient disease to any ecosystem and they simply need to learn a better way on all fronts. We could all use a little practice in more and more efficiency in probably almost every aspect of our lives... but greed and fear doesn't want you thinking that way.
edit on 29-9-2012 by NotAnAspie because: (no reason given)


I agree with what you say, but I think the OP is discussing philosophical materialism, not the acquiring of comforts that materialism is sometimes known for. A true materialist would put value on the physical and would thus aim to protect it.


If that is the case, I have no idea how anyone is supposed to answer whether or not the opposite of this belief is death worship because I know of not one person who would answer materialist or idealist or any such rigid concepts if they were asked of their personal beliefs.

but perhaps I'll stand back as someone might want to explain how not being a materialist in the sense you are referring to means they worship death.... because I'm not drawing the connection on a spiritual level unless we refer to perhaps "stillness" sought by buddhists, which I still don't exactly relate to anti-materialism.

In other words, who the hell are these so called death worshippers we are admonishing because I'd like to at least be able to identify them first. Idealists? I'm just not drawing the connection that Idealists are death worshippers.

I think the closest thing I could consider as being antimaterial and it applying to a belief frame work is the idea that in heaven or in the afterlife we will all be spirits... which is still energy... which is just matter in another form.

This has really just added some unclear complications to what the thread is supposed to be aiming at... and why do people speak on behalf of the OP yet also answer them?



posted on Sep, 29 2012 @ 07:00 PM
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So, My friend went to see that latest movie, the one getting really good reviews. ya, that one.

Anyhow, he came back and I asked him what it was about
He spoke at length about the sets. one set had these cliffs, some trees, the sun was glaring through some leaves, the sound of a nearby stream.
Another scene was a city. he spoke at length about the makeup of the buildings, the cars, the models, the clothes of the people, etc.


I had to stop him...and asked what it was -about-...not what individual scenes looked like..
He didn't know, he was distracted completely by the materials that made up the movie that he forgot to watch the plot.

So, I am thinking thats key. Materialism is a supporting function, not the focus, on the plot called life. Treat it as such, and you should be alright..be distracted by it and your life is without focus, without plot..aka, meaningless.

just a perspective.

(tm)



posted on Sep, 29 2012 @ 07:02 PM
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Originally posted by NotAnAspie

Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne

Originally posted by NotAnAspie
If you intend to master matter, rather than worship it and let materialism have power over you... then you seek to be a master in life, not death.

You can't really condemn those who try to turn away from being material in our current state of affairs.

It is mixing spirituality, pragmatics and economics and that's kind of a punch below the belt to those who simply desire change and not death. that's like saying they're depressed or something and just want to die like they have mental problems.

Just because materialism is the way it is now, doesn't mean it's SUPPOSED to be this way. We could do much better... have less waste, more understanding of sciences, more appreciation for our resources... the fact is if you look closely, those who try to abstain from being overly materialistic... actually just have more of an appreciation for what exists and have loftier ideas concerning it's potential.

They often see the wasteful and materialistic as a serious detriment to existence on so many levels... so many levels. They are even *mentally* exhausting of *theoretical* resources. I find they often love to waste the time of others, have little consideration, love to murky waters and complicate life in general... the list goes on and on. I think they are an inefficient disease to any ecosystem and they simply need to learn a better way on all fronts. We could all use a little practice in more and more efficiency in probably almost every aspect of our lives... but greed and fear doesn't want you thinking that way.
edit on 29-9-2012 by NotAnAspie because: (no reason given)


I agree with what you say, but I think the OP is discussing philosophical materialism, not the acquiring of comforts that materialism is sometimes known for. A true materialist would put value on the physical and would thus aim to protect it.


If that is the case, I have no idea how anyone is supposed to answer whether or not the opposite of this belief is death worship because I know of not one person who would answer materialist or idealist or any such rigid concepts if they were asked of their personal beliefs.

but perhaps I'll stand back as someone might want to explain how not being a materialist in the sense you are referring to means they worship death.... because I'm not drawing the connection on a spiritual level unless we refer to perhaps "stillness" sought by buddhists, which I still don't exactly relate to anti-materialism.

In other words, who the hell are these so called death worshippers we are admonishing because I'd like to at least be able to identify them first. Idealists? I'm just not drawing the connection that Idealists are death worshippers.

I think the closest thing I could consider as being antimaterial and it applying to a belief frame work is the idea that in heaven or in the afterlife we will all be spirits... which is still energy... which is just matter in another form.

This has really just added some unclear complications to what the thread is supposed to be aiming at... and why do people speak on behalf of the OP yet also answer them?



To yearn for the spirit world, a want to shed one's fleshy suit to become a spirit, a need for a transcendence into the spirit world, to become pure consciousness, an idea, idealism, is worshipping death. I would have to agree with the OP.

PS. I'm trying to stimulate debate to answer your condescending question. The OP brings up a good point. This is Philosophy and Metaphysics.
edit on 29-9-2012 by TheSubversiveOne because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 29 2012 @ 07:04 PM
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Originally posted by SaturnFX
So, My friend went to see that latest movie, the one getting really good reviews. ya, that one.

Anyhow, he came back and I asked him what it was about
He spoke at length about the sets. one set had these cliffs, some trees, the sun was glaring through some leaves, the sound of a nearby stream.
Another scene was a city. he spoke at length about the makeup of the buildings, the cars, the models, the clothes of the people, etc.


I had to stop him...and asked what it was -about-...not what individual scenes looked like..
He didn't know, he was distracted completely by the materials that made up the movie that he forgot to watch the plot.

So, I am thinking thats key. Materialism is a supporting function, not the focus, on the plot called life. Treat it as such, and you should be alright..be distracted by it and your life is without focus, without plot..aka, meaningless.

just a perspective.

(tm)


A very good perspective and analogy in my opinion.



posted on Sep, 29 2012 @ 07:12 PM
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Lol, ''The opposite of materialism is death worship''

What a statement! Shouldnt that go with statements like 'If you dont have a facebook account you're sociopath?''

Idealism, perhaps, but certainly not devil worship.

I dont have a blackberry, nor an I-pad, nor have I ever bought a stupidly expensive t-shirt when I could have bougnt 10 for the same money, now I worship death?

Really? Death worship? How does one worship death exactly? Now that is what I want to know.


 
Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com
 



posted on Sep, 29 2012 @ 07:13 PM
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The plot is part of the materialism just like a car is part of a race.
Idealism is not the opposite of materialism, this idea that everything comes from mind...
Well what "ideas" is this mind creating? Material ones...
Even idea/thought/emotion/energy/spirit/light is material/physical it is just a more loose form of it.

Spirits/light/ideas are all physical just on higher levels which give more freedom than these REALLY "physical" bodies, but to absolutely be beyond all physicality - you'd have to follow "formlessness" releasing all connections to physicality including life, intention, thought, and emotion.


reply to post by Monkeygod333
 



Originally posted by Monkeygod333
Idealism, perhaps, but certainly not devil worship.


Idealism - this belief that all THINGS come from mind IS materialism - the IDEAS are physical things whether it is spirit, light, energy, or matter - it is still PHYSICAL - light/spirit is PHYSICAL just on more higher levels then this more dense physical body.

So you are still worshiping materialism. What do you believe in "LOVE"? And emotion? What do you believe in "COMPASSION" an interaction between MATTER/FORMS? All physical...


To worship/follow death is to RELEASE all physicality - body, thought, emotion (LOVE/HATE, etc), desire, etc.
edit on 29-9-2012 by arpgme because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 29 2012 @ 07:23 PM
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Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne

Originally posted by NotAnAspie

Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne

Originally posted by NotAnAspie
If you intend to master matter, rather than worship it and let materialism have power over you... then you seek to be a master in life, not death.

re an inefficient disease to any ecosystem and they simply need to learn a better way on all fronts. We could all use a little practice in more and more efficiency in probably almost every aspect of our lives... but greed and fear doesn't want you thinking that way.
edit on 29-9-2012 by NotAnAspie because: (no reason given)


I agree with what you say, but I think the OP is discussing philosophical materialism, not the acquiring of comforts that materialism is sometimes known for. A true materialist would put value on the physical and would thus aim to protect it.


If that is the case, I have no idea how anyone is supposed to answer whether or not the opposite of this belief is death worship because I know of not one person who would answer materialist or idealist or any such rigid concepts if they were asked of their personal beliefs.

but perhaps I'll stand back as someone might want to explain how not being a materialist in the sense you are referring to means they worship death.... because I'm not drawing the connection on a spiritual level unless we refer to perhaps "stillness" sought by buddhists, which I still don't exactly relate to anti-materialism.

In other words, who the hell are these so called death worshippers we are admonishing because I'd like to at least be able to identify them first. Idealists? I'm just not drawing the connection that Idealists are death worshippers.

I think the closest thing I could consider as being antimaterial and it applying to a belief frame work is the idea that in heaven or in the afterlife we will all be spirits... which is still energy... which is just matter in another form.

This has really just added some unclear complications to what the thread is supposed to be aiming at... and why do people speak on behalf of the OP yet also answer them?



To yearn for the spirit world, a want to shed one's fleshy suit to become a spirit, a need for a transcendence into the spirit world, to become pure consciousness, an idea, idealism, is worshipping death. I would have to agree with the OP.
edit on 29-9-2012 by TheSubversiveOne because: (no reason given)


Just how many people do you know like this? I know of not one. I'm not sure if this idea was supposed to be obvious but it wasn't because like I said, the closest thing I can think of is people who think the afterlife will be full of spirits but also as I stated... I still don't think this qualifies for being against this definition of materialism.

Gravity... quantum relationships we don't fully understand. If I try to account for that beyond obvious materialism, does this mean I worship death?

Are we talking SPIRITUAL or SCIENTIFIC... because the definition you gave me leans toward scientific explanations rather than spiritual ones but then throw idealism into the mix and where does it fit in? It's simply a mind over matter philosophy it seems... and now we go back to spiritual by talking about being disembodied spirits, which I still don't think applies to opposite of materialism.

This is totally twisting me around in an annoying way and I'm not sure why or what we're going for here but the only potential I can take from this right now is....

There might not be such thing as ghosts.

there... that's it... that decides a lot right there.

If there are, there are disembodied spirits who live beyond the physical form yet are STILL actually comprised of something, energy... so that can't be called NOT being materialistic.

If ghosts DO NOT exist... it still doesn't explain gravity and a whole bunch of other things so it still doesn't answer the argument of materialism, it just demonstrates that life cannot exists without a body.

Is that what we are talking about?

I'd like to answer to that myself... but it's still not worshipping death... because it's life after death.

I think there is a spin here and I'm trying to figure out what it is because I feel like it's supposed to mean something else and I think it would be much more efficient to understand what it's agenda is but I'm starting to feel like it's got something to do with superstition and necromancy.

Is that what we're getting at here? Don't talk to the dead because it's sorcery? That kind of thing?

I have to say I prefer the more straightforward path when it comes to the power of suggestion. Clarity is a credible thing.



posted on Sep, 29 2012 @ 07:30 PM
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Originally posted by arpgme
The plot is part of the materialism just like a car is part of a race.
Idealism is not the opposite of materialism, this idea that everything comes from mind...
Well what "ideas" is this mind creating? Material ones...
Even idea/thought/emotion/energy/spirit/light is material/physical it is just a more loose form of it.

Spirits/light/ideas are all physical just on higher levels which give more freedom than these REALLY "physical" bodies, but to absolutely be beyond all physicality - you'd have to follow "formlessness" releasing all connections to physicality including life, intention, thought, and emotion.


reply to post by Monkeygod333
 



Originally posted by Monkeygod333
Idealism, perhaps, but certainly not devil worship.


Idealism - this belief that all THINGS come from mind IS materialism - the IDEAS are physical things whether it is spirit, light, energy, or matter - it is still PHYSICAL - light/spirit is PHYSICAL just on more higher levels then this more dense physical body.

So you are still worshiping materialism. What do you believe in "LOVE"? And emotion? What do you believe in "COMPASSION" an interaction between MATTER/FORMS? All physical...


To worship/follow death is to RELEASE all physicality - body, thought, emotion (LOVE/HATE, etc), desire, etc.
edit on 29-9-2012 by arpgme because: (no reason given)


ok... thanks for taking this out of the materialism/idealism debate and getting to what you are referring to but again... who does this? Buddhists? Are you talking about stillness?

I know not all Buddhists see stillness in such a way but it's the closest group of people I can think of that you might be referring to.... and that is what I'm trying to figure out.



posted on Sep, 29 2012 @ 08:10 PM
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reply to post by NotAnAspie
 


When you say "stillness" what exactly is meant? If you mean a "FEELING" of peace, then no, that is still an emotion.



posted on Sep, 29 2012 @ 08:45 PM
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Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by NotAnAspie
 


When you say "stillness" what exactly is meant? If you mean a "FEELING" of peace, then no, that is still an emotion.


It's a Buddhist thing. Escaping the cycle of reincarnation, relinquishing desire, freeing yourself pain by escaping the cycle of life because the first noble truth of life is suffering for Buddhists in most schools of thought. Stillness, from what I gather is escaping all that... but I could be wrong because I'm not a Buddhist and haven't really studied it. I just know that some Buddhist pray for their loved ones who have passed to not be reincarnated and they try to achieve "stillness" so that they will not be reincarnated.

That is the closest thing I can think of that you are talking about and I have only read it sparsely and seen one Indian woman whose husband was eaten by an alligator while he was fishing and she was praying for his spirit to be released... but I don't even count her actually.

A) She was grieving.
B) maybe she didn't want him reincarnating because then he wouldn't be waiting for her in the next life
C) maybe life really sucked for them because hell, they were fishing with alligators in a dirty river.

But.... This topic brings to mind something I HAVE seen on ATS... and ONLY ATS.... now that you mention it.

There's some troll roaming around here trying to tell everybody that everything is perfect and the only reason that you have losses is because you have desires and if you stop having desires, you'll be free from want.

I don't think that's death worship though... I think that's bullcrap.

I think that was just a troll trying to make somebody feel bad for wanting something or break them down in their own desires because the worst thing you can do for quelling a desire, is denying it. Like let's say you like somebody but they don't like you... denying that you ever liked them doesn't make it go away. To break it down you have to first admit it and analyze it and you'll then figure out how to dismantle it... and it might not even be conscious... it might be a gradual subconscious thing... although it could be conscious because I do think people can control their emotions... the key is wanting to. You can't be successful in changing them if you can't even admit you have them.

Either that or ... you know what? I'm not sure I even want to know what that guys game was because it will just remind me of how crazy people can be... anyway, I'm sure he was trolling and not living by those ideals.

I'm just trying to figure out who your target audience is but you are not even familiar with stillness in Buddhism.....???

Just tell me who you are talking about.
There's always a subject.
edit on 29-9-2012 by NotAnAspie because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 29 2012 @ 08:56 PM
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reply to post by NotAnAspie
 


You are NOT the desire. The desire comes and goes. Desire is a separate thing coming and going, this is why you may have a desire to eat cookies and then you can ignore it saying "that's not healthy" and it eventually goes away - or why you can eat the cookies and after eating it the desire goes away - because YOU are not the desire - there is a big difference. Nor are you thought - this is why you are "aware" of different thoughts coming and going.;



posted on Sep, 29 2012 @ 09:43 PM
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reply to post by arpgme
 


What you derive from thinking about anti-materialism takes a death plunge into a physical explanation that makes no amount of sense.

I will only suggest that you look into meditation and catch a glimmer of what it means to reach the "As One" state with the Universe. That is the true gateway to anti-materialism. Then perhaps you will understand that the opposite of materialism is not something that equates with death. It isn't even close.



posted on Sep, 29 2012 @ 10:12 PM
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Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by NotAnAspie
 


You are NOT the desire. The desire comes and goes. Desire is a separate thing coming and going, this is why you may have a desire to eat cookies and then you can ignore it saying "that's not healthy" and it eventually goes away - or why you can eat the cookies and after eating it the desire goes away - because YOU are not the desire - there is a big difference. Nor are you thought - this is why you are "aware" of different thoughts coming and going.;



ok, I have no idea why you felt the need to explain that to me because i wasn't under the impression i was the desire... but thanks anyway, I think.

Could you please try to answer the question because at this point, I just want to know that the topic has a foundation.

who are these anti-materialists that you are referring to that you think might be worshipping death.

Just answer that one question.





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