Actual question, not trolling: Why do Christians support a Jewish-run Israel?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

I happened across a sign board sponsored by a Church this morning...It had 1 John 2:22 on it....

Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son.


So its clear where the jews stand in Jesus' eyes? And nowhere did Jesus ever say that jews are exempt when it comes to denying Jesus as the Christ.

I'm not arguing that orthodox jews are not apostates, there's plenty of damning scripture from both OT and NT proving that. There's always been a remnant of them that were faithful throughout the generations even though they had been swallowed by the apostates who turned away from God's Voice to their tradition of men. The largest evidence comes out of the mouth of Jesus himself:

Mark 3:31-35

31 Then His brothers and His mother came, and standing outside they sent to Him, calling Him. 32 And a multitude was sitting around Him; and they said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are outside seeking You.”

33 But He answered them, saying, “Who is My mother, or My brothers?” 34 And He looked around in a circle at those who sat about Him, and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.”

Well what is the will of God? What is it God wills for us?

John 6:35-40

35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

These tie directly into the parable of the goats and the sheep, and whoever did for his brothers and sisters did also for him, and whoever did nothing for his brothers and sisters, also did nothing for him. This is what it means to be the Body of Christ. When Paul persecuted believers of Jesus before he to became one, he was persecuting Jesus:

Acts 9:1-5

Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.

3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”

5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”

Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”

Matthew 18:6-7

6 “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!

Parable of the goats and sheep:

Matthew 25:31-46

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Woe be to anyone who should hurt one of his little ones.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Actually yes. The prophesy to consider.

Hosea 6
1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

The thing to know here is that the days are thousand year periods of time. Essentially a reincarnation of Israel was supposed to appear approximately 2000 years after the old one was destroyed.

Also a nation of Israel and a Jewish temple is required for the Matthew 24-15 prophecy. What is a sign of the end of the world?

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

Also the appearance of a nation of Israel heralds the return of Jesus Christ as well.

24-27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

The reason I include verse 28 there is if I have it figured out properly it would appear it's a Daniel 8 reference. And if so then it would appear that verse 28 is predicting that Iran/Persia is conquered just before the return of Jesus Christ.

Stay tuned for updates.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by Deetermined

 

By the way, are you hearing any reports that Jews are killing Messianic Jews because of it?

Nope.

But I do hear reports of Jews calling Jesus a "bastard" and a "false prophet".

But, I'm sure you, like most Christians, believe its all OK.... after all, those who bless them are blessed, right?

What can I say?

Religious tolerance is better than no religious tolerance.

Which do you prefer? Take your pick.

At this point, I'll pick tolerance over being blessed.

Originally posted by Deetermined

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by Deetermined

 

By the way, are you hearing any reports that Jews are killing Messianic Jews because of it?

Nope.

But I do hear reports of Jews calling Jesus a "bastard" and a "false prophet".

But, I'm sure you, like most Christians, believe its all OK.... after all, those who bless them are blessed, right?

What can I say?

Religious tolerance is better than no religious tolerance.

Which do you prefer? Take your pick.

At this point, I'll pick tolerance over being blessed.

Well, we're not supposed to pull the tares up or we could pull the wheat up with it and the objective is to witness to lost souls to allow the Holy Spirit to do His work in bringing them to repentance. What good is the ability to excercise mercy and compassion if it is never used? Unbelievers can only see Him through us when our faith manifests through works of compassion and mercy.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Good point!

Matthew 13:24-30

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven (Israel) is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

reply to post by ntech

Also the appearance of a nation of Israel heralds the return of Jesus Christ as well.

Modern Israel is not a holy nation, Skorpion is right on this matter. Those who are not secular, are orthodox or ultra-orthodox jews, minus the christian and messianic jewish elements and the muslim.

Biblical Israel is a theocracy, not a democracy. Theyre infested with homosexuality, pornography (ritual sex magic to Ashtoreth on videos and internet) amoung some other things, right there in Tel Aviv. Nothing has changed, it's the same stuff spoken of in Jeremiah 7 it just got a facelift.

Now i am not saying they will not be redeemed by any means but it comes at a heavy price, 2/3 of them have to die to force them to acknowledge their offense Hosea 5:15 which brings Zechariah 12:10 and Jesus saves them. Remember what Jesus said Matthew 23:37-39. Lets see those verses:

Hosea 5:15

15 I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense.
Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.”

[this affliction will be Jacob's Trouble, or as we know it the Great Tribulation]

Zechariah:12:7:14

7 “The Lord will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not become greater than that of Judah. 8 In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the Lord before them. 9 It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

Mourning for the Pierced One

10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. 11 In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; 13 the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; 14 all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves

[this passage of Zechariah is when they call on Jesus and welcome him back in Matthew 23:39]


Matthew 23:37-39

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

Sabbateans - Frankists

www.youtube.com...

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
But I do hear reports of Jews calling Jesus a "bastard" and a "false prophet".

But, I'm sure you, like most Christians, believe its all OK.... after all, those who bless them are blessed, right?

They even call Jesus a Nazi!! I can't find that youtube vid anymore of an Israeli ad or whatever telling Jesus just that and all sorts of bad things.

There you go, contradiction of Biblical prophesies! Will you call your God a Nazi?

This is not yet the time. We haven't seen the real People of Israel Gathered yet.

The REAL People of Israel will love God, you will see their fruits, they will hunger for the Bread of Life who is Jesus, not call him a Nazi!! No longer will they they run after the things of the flesh. Therefore, God will never uproot them anymore...

...For those who are under the New Covenant sins no more, for the law is written in their hearts (not from reading the Bible or from a preacher). They will hunger for the Spirit not because someone told them but by instinct, their new nature!!

Am I just speaking to a bunch of deaf??? Who are too lazy to use their brain??? Who just wants to contradict everything I say even if there's a chance I'm speaking of the truth.

Just because your pastor told, just because everyone in the Church believe this and that is true, it's not! If they all run to the edge of a cliff, jump to their deaths will you follow??

The deception is huge today!! The Beast is very very smart. If money, possession, pride of life - things of the flesh, can manipulate you even in the smallest ways, you are probably the deceived

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Modern Israel is not a holy nation, Skorpion is right on this matter. Those who are not secular, are orthodox or ultra-orthodox jews, minus the christian and messianic jewish elements and the muslim.

Glad to see another Christian not deceived on this matter.

Watch out for future events for it may be greatly influenced by non-God approved current State of Israel.

If they go out to war, possibly even losing, then someone rescues them from Heaven at their current, Unholy state, it is not God but something else, a false God, false messiah, even a false Jesus! Using UFO technology/wonders, etc...

This false prophet will side with the rest of the Christians who will stand by the current corrupt Israel - they will be many!! You can bet at least 2 billion people!!

The false prophet will exercise iron rule as the real Jesus would but instead would direct it's wrath towards the very FEW Christians who would oppose the false doctrine popular today.

Most Christians who will be deceived that a new law is in effect, will also go after the FEW opposing Christians, persecute, even kill them, and believe they are doing a great thing for Jesus.

Then the real Jesus will come to save his elect FEW. The event will utterly surprise many. It will utterly dwarf the arrival party that the false prophet did. It will strike tremendous fear into the hearts of the many. If you fear thousands, even millions of invading flying saucers in the sky both small and planet-sized, the arrival of Jesus is infinitely more scary!!

Many will probably be simply scared to death!

reply to post by cetaphobic


In a nutshell it has to do with their opinions on eschatology and the nature of the covenants that God has made with the Jews.

They've been misled.

Let's look at the history of Jerusalem...

312 AD - Christian rule. The Jews were expelled.
638 AD - Muslims conquer, allow the Jews back in.
1099 AD - Siege of Jerusalem during the Crusades, many Jews and Muslims massacred.
Next 150 years it changed hands a couple of times, first to Saladin, then back to Christians, and eventually it was basically gutted and abandoned.

After that the whole region kind of middled along and was eventually conquered by the Ottomans. It wasn't independent long after that before the State of Israel. But during that time, despite the oppression of Ottoman rule, their were leaders who were tolerant. From wikipedia on Daher al Omar

" He encouraged Jewish families to settle in Tiberias around 1742.[13] The newcomers helped him with the influence of their network in Damascus and Constantinople. Also, Daher maintained excellent relationships with the Greek Orthodox church in Nazareth and Acre which secured for him the sympathy and support of Russia. Daher understood early on the importance of a multi-confessional society as a means of prosperity and political support"

en.wikipedia.org...

At one point this guy was even asked... what to do with the churches and synagouges... convert them to mosques? Destroy them? His answer was to leave them be.

In the last thousand years, many have moved to the region. As noted before, when Muslims conquered Jerusalem they allowed Jews to return, and they have been coming back ever since. Also there are many families and priesthoods of different types of Christians who have populated the area, not only in Jersualem, but largely in Bethlehem and Nazareth. Those families and priesthoods go back hundreds of years and did not face systematic intolerance, nor did the Jewish families and Rabbis. The events of the early to mid 1900's DID include some persecution and intolerance, going in both directions, but that does not negate the tolerant attitude that existed before the Zionists started rocking the boat.

But where I sympathize with the OP the most is that I think to myself "How can a Christian be against Palestinians, when all of the Christians who have been living there for centuries and ARE the Christian presence in that region, are Palestinians?" (If you are hung up on nomenclature you can call them indigenous Arabs if that pleases you). I think the answer is that they really have no idea that those people are even there. It's time for the West Bank to really celebrate the Christian heritage that is present to remind the world how things really are.

The Anti Christ rules from Jerusalem, so he either comes up through Zionism, Rothschild s Illuminati.

Jewish false messiah,

But Jesus also talks about when you see the abomination that causes desolation, as spoken about by the prophet Daniel

so is this an invading force of the anti christ, that over runs Israel ?

and then the anti christ enthrones him self in Jerusalem.

reply to post by WhiteHat


Jews dont fight wars because they get other nations to do the wars for them.

What I never really understood is why it is accepted that jews can have the land which is called today Israel.
-Because God said so?
-Because they have lived there hundreds of years ago?

If the second one is the case, then on the same principle everyone in the US should go back to England, Scotland, Ireland and give back the land to the native indians.
If the first one is the case then it was not the word of God because God would not prefer any nation over the other.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n

If you have any doubts, go up to a Jew (preferably a Rabbi) and ask him where Jesus, the messiah stands in Judaism.

edit on 25-9-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

In a vat of boiling excrement, isn't that where they say he stands for eternity?

reply to post by Golden Rule


I think this thread you have started is perfect.. I don't think Christians are supposed to support the Judaic Faith or it's community of followers; I believe that when that sit down at the synaogue, they follow a couple of Toranic rituals and then later when they go home, they turn to their Talmud and follow those instructions instead--

Brother Nathaniel has a great website where he creates and offers very interesting videos about who the Jewish community really is. It's kind of sad, but he is speaking as someone who knows his stuff: He USED to be Jewish, (practicing Jewish person) and eventually he CONVERTED to the Christian faith. He basically knows, understands, and analyzes everything that is problematic with Judaism/Talmudism and its followers; I am certain most people here have heard of Brother Nathaniel;

Essentially though, I think most Christians know nothing to very little about Judaism, thereby knowing very little to nothing about the Jewish community; However, Jewish people certainly need Christians because no one else seems to able to tolerate their unjustified behavior, and moral teachings;

Here is a link to Bro Nathaniel's website--Jeff Rense always references him by the way:
brovids.com... or this link: www.realjewnews.com...

Originally posted by ahnggk
I am a Christian..

..But probably one of those few who will not advocate the current State of Israel today.

Because I don't think they are the 'Lost Sheep of the House of Israel'

"By their fruits, you shall know them"

They hardly look like lost sheep, but rather, ravening wolves!!

Jesus taught the sheep, lost or found will hunger for the 'Bread of Life' who is Jesus. The wolves on the other hand, lost or not, will hunger for the things of the flesh - money, wealth, pride of life, power, respect etc...

If you're a Christian and you support the current State of Israel, you don't understand your Bible!

edit on 25-9-2012 by ahnggk because: (no reason given)

lol.. Agree 100%

Originally posted by acacko
the alternative would be a muslim Israel
do you think that would be any better?
jews are simply the lesser of 2 evils

Really???
Jews denied Jesus(pbuh) as the Messiah and tried to kill him..
Jews and Muslims equally disagree about his divinity.
Muslims accept him as the Messiah.

What i rather see is right now muslims are a common enemy, a threat to both.
By going against muslims, jews get close to christians and getting all the favours, money, protection etc
one thing i'l admit, Jews are smart.

P.S- I am not anti-jew, people are good or bad. I m using "jew" for people who follow "judiasm"

Originally posted by DOLCOTT
reply to post by ahnggk

 

Broad statement, the Jew's are God's chosen plain and simple. You do not need to be a theologian to figure that out. We as gentiles were grafted into the family by the death of Christ. You may not agree with their politics however if you lived under the threats Israel does, you might better understand their aggressive behavior. If rockets and bombers came over the Rio Grande, Texans would not tolerate it.

Hahaha.. Israel under threat?? with all the defense capabilities, ya a serious threat from stones,sticks and rockets.
I guess if you were kicked out of your house by a big bully (who initially came in as a victim and you gave him a place to stay) you would just go find a cozy spot of land and pitch ur tent and agree with the bully that the land your house was built on was owned by his G.G.Great grandfather or better God gave him the land..

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by cetaphobic

 

Why is it that so many Christians and conservatives support a Jewish-run Israel, basically being 100% behind wiping out Islam? Do they not think that Israel will then turn against Christians? If they can't play well with one religion, they won't be able to play well with any religion.

Because most christians make the mistake of thinking the modern day state of Israel founded by secularists/atheists is a restored biblical Israel.

Excellent response..

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by WhiteHat

 

Are you aware that christianism basically is judaism upgraded?

Only in the minds of those so called "messianic jews".... basically Christians in jewish costumes... who the jews rally against.

Most Jews are opposed to the idea of Christianity being an upgraded form of Judaism.

The term "judeo-christian" is the biggest oxymoron you can come across... the reason?
Simple. Jesus and Judaism are absolutely incompatible.

If you have any doubts, go up to a Jew (preferably a Rabbi) and ask him where Jesus, the messiah stands in Judaism.

edit on 25-9-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

Absolutely true!!
If christians knew, what they think about Jesus(pbuh) i dont think anyone who loves Jesus(pbuh) would stand it. But ya, as they say "Ignorance is bliss"