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Warp Drive May Be More Feasible Than Thought, Scientists Say

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posted on Sep, 17 2012 @ 08:28 PM
reply to post by TheProphetMark

Awesome post. I was about to start one on the same subject, but did my due diligence and found yours. The most striking facts are (1) that with the optimized shape, the energy needed might not be more than the mass of a typical spaceship, which is down from the mass of Jupiter, (2) the bubble in which the ship and astronauts would be conveyed would experience no time dilation and (3) the estimated speed might be up to 10 times the speed of light. If this is ever proven to be feasible, then that's a major feather in the cap of those who believe extra-terrestrials visit Earth. Clearly it means that humans can explore and colonize space too.

Really, if this theory pans out, it will be the biggest news of this century, and a massive scientific/technological milestone.

posted on Sep, 17 2012 @ 08:39 PM
reply to post by TheProphetMark

A soon-to-be-military-use-only tool for space warfare

posted on Sep, 17 2012 @ 08:45 PM

A Possible Origin for Warp Drive Metrics

This Section focuses on a warp drive metric seen at Modern Relativity, which reduces the negative energy of both the Alcubierre and Hiscock Warp Drives, by considering time dilation in the ship's frame. That metric is then applied to the Schwarzchild solution of the Einstein Field Equation in order to describe the possible origins for warp drive metrics. The later metric is then further described by an article of Ford and Roman to further the meaning of negative energy.


The "Zcphysicsms" [David White] Warp Drive
The Hiscock paper modifies the Alcubierre Warp Drive by reducing it two-dimensions and by it by a generic Lorentz transformation A(r) [1]. The "Zcphysicsms" metric performs a similar task with a function of "C(ct, r)," this metric then makes it easy to discuss the energy-density in the ships frame so we are left with the relation [2]:

ds2=[C(rs)2[vsr g(rs)]2]dt-2 vsr g(rs)dtdt'-dx'2-dy'2-dz'2

with coordinates

g00=[C(rs)2[vsr g(rs)]2]
g01=g10=-vsr g(rs)

The Schwarzchild Solution
Taking this metric in comparison to Schwarzchild space one begins with


thereby we rewrite the first equation with

g00=[1-(2GM) C(rs)[vsr g(rs)]2]
g01=g10=-vsr g(rs)

An arbitrary coordinate transformation of order r(b2(r))1/2-->r' is then applies, so that in cylindrical coordinates one has a solution of order

ds2=[1-(2GM)'C'(r's)[vsr' g'(r's)]2]-[dr'2/1-(2GM/r)']-r'2 2df'2-dz'2.

The Schwarzchild space is simply a solution to the Einstein Tensor Gab in spherical coordinates. From the definition of a Riemannain tensor


the origin of this warp drive metric comes from the energy-density and momentum of the stress-energy tensor. The problem is that the Schwarzchild metric describes a static space thus it can not describe angular momentum. Although the angular momentum can not be calculated through the Schwarzchild metric the energy-density still can be calculated which is given from the time dilation factor:

T00=-(b2/4)(c4/8pG)(dg/dr)(rq2/A(ct, r)).

which yields an energy-density of


It is likely that T11 T22 T33 terms for angular momentum can be solved through the Kerr metric, but we leave this open for the time being (since this would complicate the equations greatly). The negative energy of this space is similar to that generated by TabUaUb=>0, and may vanish for special case transformations.

The Generalized Second Law
A work on scalar fields by Ford and Roman [3] can explain where the negative energy of warp drive comes from. The Ford-Roman paper implies that the Generalized Second Law (GSL) is always satisfied in the case of a black hole:


Where S is the entropy given by the area of the horizon. Now according to the Swarzchild Warp Drive Metric produced earlier matter may temporally become tachyoic within a black hole, and leave through the warp drive metric. This means mass from the black hole can interact with the Hawking radiation produced by the horizon (thus causing a gross violation of the conservation of energy) therefore nullifying the GSL:

Dtot=DS+DSmat=1, then the negative energy disappears from flat spacetime. The origin of the negative energy comes from an inertial frame, its appearance arises because the observer is a rest with the inertial frame. Therefore externally the negative energy exist near the Schwarzchild radius. Coincidentally the Ford-Roman paper describes the energy tensor in a Schwarzchild space given in radial coordinates by:

Ttr=(1/1-8pxf2)[(1-2x)f,t f,r*-2x(ff,tr -1/2(2M/r2)ff,t)]

A change in a black holes mass from scalar fields can thus be given by:

M*=(M2/2p) Int dW[[ln(1/1-8pxf2)],vv-1/4M[ln(1/1-8pxf2)],v]+ positive quantity

where v=t+r*. Thus the the momentum of a black hole can changes the total entropy of the black hole proportional to the initial mass Mi and current mass mc; Dtot=Mi-mc/t, thus the GSL is time dependent! The reason why the GSL holds in the Ford-Roman work because the negative energy of the scalar field amplifies the negative energy within the black hole thus compensating for Hawking radiation. Therefore the black hole not only absorbs a scalar field, but is actually capable of producing a scalar field as a by product of angular momentum, which causes entropy to increase. As the mass becomes tachyonic positive energy is absorbed by the horizon decreasing S, which intern causes the future horizon. That is to say as the negative energy flows into a black hole S increases, so the black hole ejects the excess energy in the form of tachyonic matter resulting in an Inverse Generalized Second Law (IGSL).

On scalar fields and entropy
The entropy of a static black hole under this scalar field is given through


where x is the Einstein frame and f represents a Jordan frame. The argument is that if x=0 for the Einstein frame it must assume f=0 for the Jordan frame, this is made possible by a field redefinition which makes the Lagrangian xRf 2 term vanish. According to Ford and Roman the f term acts to preserve the GSL by acting on a black holes future horizon. Therefore the scalar field acts to increase S as a large negative flux enters, however the future horizon can save S for small fluxes.

Generalized Conclusions

Hawking radiation requires a black hole to have a negative entropy, the influx of scalar negative energy increases S, thus to restore the original entropy positive energy is absorbed. Therefore in a static black hole when a negative energy flux encounters the horizon its entropy increase temporally but the inflow of positive energy counters the effect preserving the GSL. With a rotating mass the angular momentum produces the negative energy by a violation of the WEC, in which the flux of positive energy is unable to conserve the GSL. Therefore the excess negative energy is ejected, resulting in the production of a warp drive metric (or wormhole) thereby satisfying the IGSL (which is an effect one would expect from Hawking radiation). When coupled to a scalar field this would be limited, the ejected matter of the warp drive would be limited to particles violating the WEC possessing two-dimensional radial angular momentum.

-The primary difference from the arguments in this page in relation to the Ford-Roman article is that the black hole itself is capable of producing a scalar field.


[1] Hiscock W. Quantum Effects in the Alcubierre warp drive spacetime. Class.Quant.Grav. 14 (1997) L183-88. gr-qc/9707024

[2] "Zcphysicsms" Modern Relativity

[3] Ford L and Roman T. Classical Scalar Fields and the Generalized Second Law. gr-qc/0009076


If you are having problems accessing this stie try doing a search upon, "The Schwarzchild Warp Drive"

"Perhaps a Star Trek experience within our lifetime is not such a remote possibility." These are the words of Dr. Harold "Sonny" White, the Advanced Propulsion Theme Lead for the NASA Engineering Directorate. Dr. White and his colleagues don't just believe a real life warp drive is theoretically possible; they've already started the work to create one.


Any thoughts?
edit on 17-9-2012 by Kashai because: Added and modified content

posted on Sep, 17 2012 @ 10:46 PM
reply to post by TheProphetMark

I think Scientists should stop saying it cant be done as newer and younger scientists often prove their elders wrong.
If you told me thirty years ago, Id be typing a letter that all the world could see on a wireless keyboard and looking at a wireless screen let alone using a personal computer, I would have told that person to give up smoking marijuana as it was making them delusional.
Who knows what Science will be able to do in 50 years time. Never say never, and never say its impossible just not possible now.

posted on Sep, 17 2012 @ 10:48 PM
reply to post by ObjectZero

Only those wealthy enough to do so.

posted on Sep, 17 2012 @ 11:10 PM

"There is hope," Harold "Sonny" White of NASA's Johnson Space Center said here Friday

So, there is no hope before this ?

posted on Sep, 17 2012 @ 11:29 PM
Well of course it is possible. The producers of Star Trek and Star Gate SG1 wouldn't be wrong.

posted on Sep, 18 2012 @ 01:22 AM
My pants have been removed in anticipation.

There is nothing more to say.

posted on Sep, 18 2012 @ 01:36 AM
Question... Would this 'warp field' negate the effects of time dilation?

posted on Sep, 18 2012 @ 02:32 AM
reply to post by powerdrone

Yep, it would completely remove it. That is you'd experience time just as as those on Earth.
edit on 18/9/12 by shadowland8 because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 18 2012 @ 02:32 AM

Originally posted by powerdrone
Question... Would this 'warp field' negate the effects of time dilation?
The question can't be answered with current math, can it?

Time dilation only occurs at speeds approaching light speed. There is no math for time dilation above the speed of light. So some new math is needed and then there might be an answer.

In the meantime we can guess it's just like on Star Trek, if it's possible at all.

posted on Sep, 18 2012 @ 02:39 AM
reply to post by Arbitrageur

That's true for conventional means, but the idea with this theory is that you're not moving at all.

posted on Sep, 18 2012 @ 02:40 AM
It sounds interesting all right, another thought comes to mind, just maybe stars and planets are a lot closer than we imagine. Maybe they arnt hundreds or thousands of light years away like we have been taught since childhood. Maybe its all one big false reality and they are in fact thousands of miles away instead. we all know how the elite make us think in certain ways and tell us what to believe. I look at the stars at night and think how close they look, maybe they are close in which case an alien contact will seem more viable. just thinking outside the square box thats all.

posted on Sep, 18 2012 @ 02:52 AM
Here's my issue with bending space as a means of travel.

What would be the effect on the greater environment of the solar system and local galaxy? There must be some risk in adversely effecting the stability of the galaxy at large. It is similar to taking a sheet of paper and bending it so the edges touch.

The paper is never completely flat after doing that.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

posted on Sep, 18 2012 @ 03:06 AM
Aint gonna happen in a million years,,,

Problemo UNO: Footballfield sized ship?? MONEY, whos gonna pay..
Problem Two: Energy, EXOTIC to...500kg....How much energy is needed
to attain that...
Problem Trois: Leadership, Obama, Putin "Buuuhaaaaaaa, MOOOM the other kids
have spaceships, I WANT ONE TOOO....NOOOOW!!!"...As in, we cant work together
to solve the problems we have HERE, NOW...

Im just sayin

Dont get your hopes up...Look around you.
Do you actually BELIVE mankind can pull
this off....
I dont......

posted on Sep, 18 2012 @ 03:06 AM
My only concern is the exotic material part. That will be very tricky considering we're aware of only ... 3(?) types of it.

posted on Sep, 18 2012 @ 03:10 AM
reply to post by shadowland8

Exotic material doesn't really imply a new form of matter. And there are four types known to science: solid, liquid, gas, plasma.

An example of exotic material is a room temperature super conductor, which would be a solid metal with zero resistance to electron exchange.

There is another type, which I can't think of the name, that is being used in experiments for invisibility. At Duke University, I believe. I'll find it and edit.


Metamaterials: The technique of photolithography...allows engineers to place hundreds of millions of tiny transistors onto a silicon wafer no bigger than your thumb. - Physics of the Impossible by Michio Kaku pg 24.
edit on 9/18/2012 by PatrickGarrow17 because: (no reason given)

Nanoscience is giving people more tools to manipulate matter and create substances with properties that don't exist naturally on Earth, hence exotic.
edit on 9/18/2012 by PatrickGarrow17 because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 18 2012 @ 03:44 AM
reply to post by PatrickGarrow17

Interesting, that makes me a bit more hopeful.

Though I was reading comments on another site about this quote

He found in that case, the warp drive could be powered by a mass about the size of a spacecraft like the Voyager 1 probe NASA launched in 1977.

I can't work this out for myself so I don't know if he's wrong, but someone said that since the Voyager 1 probe is 788kg, that this is still well without reach because the most powerful nuclear bomb set off was 50 megatons equalling 2.5kg of equivalent mass.

What do you think?

posted on Sep, 18 2012 @ 03:54 AM
reply to post by shadowland8

My main concern is in my first post on the thread, a few up this page.

I think warp travel could potentially destabilize space. Maybe not, speculation. No expert here.

It just seems like bending space in half might have the effect of shaking gravitational and electromagnetic fields. Honestly, I think complete teleportation is probably the better route and we're close to that than we are to this.

posted on Sep, 18 2012 @ 03:58 AM
Heya all

this is an interesting theory however i do feel that until we have asertained (excuse the spelling lol) a way to control or manipulate the dark matter that is apparently out there we just wont be able to produce the bang needed but if we can manage that then there would be no need for fuel as the entire mass of space itself is supposed to be full of it.not sure about the bending time space bit though.

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