Israel is thinking of using EMP / nuclear weapons against Iran

Originally posted by charles1952
I was expecting a little more detailed discussion than "nonsense" and "lies and messianic feelings," but I think you may be looking at this too narrowly, The US, the entire Security Council, Germany, the IAEA, and many others believe that Iran is very worrisome.

Do they? They Russians have a different opinion, they just stated that a couple of days ago.

uk.reuters.com...

And what proof do all these countries have for their accusations? Exactly, NONE!

I believe Germany, the US and Israel are "very worrisome"

Originally posted by charles1952Israel believes that if Iran has nuclear weapons, and if Iran uses them, then Israel will be completely destroyed.

These are not lies fabricated by Israel. They are the results of investigations and the Iranian government's words and actions.

Where is your proof?

Ooooh I forgot you don't need proof, just bomb the . out of those . Persians just in case they get a bomb. And hell yeah lets detonate a nuclear bomb over Iran and bomb that . country back to the stone age.

500.000 dead children is always worth it, isn't it, we heard that inhumane nonsense before and who cares if hospitals in Iran are working or not, if the water supply is up or not, just . , right?

Originally posted by charles1952I think it would help you to realize that even though you think it's nonsense, most of the rest of the world doesn't.

The rest of the world is not Germany, Europe, the US and Israel. There was a meeting of the "Unaligned Nations (120)" in Teheran a couple of weeks ago. Only "US agents Mursi and Ban Ki Moon" were "shooting" at Iran. Two thirds of all UN members obviously don't have a problem with Iran

Originally posted by charles1952
How do you know? What evidence do you have to support that statement?

I can't prove something that doesn't exist. Sorry.

You are the one who made those wild and absurd accusations. It is your job to provide us with proof.

reply to post by ALF88

It may be that it's late, or for some other reason, but it seems as though everything I'm writing seems to be misunderstood, or unread, or confusing to you. Whatever it is, we don't seem to be having a reasonable discussion.

I'll try a nap. See you tomorrow.

reply to post by ALF88


Which side your on is the only thing that determines "who you think is worrisome"

To a nation like Russia that has a card to play for it's benefit in containment of the USA domination of Europe etc... well of course Iran won't do anything.

Originally posted by ALF88

Originally posted by charles1952
How do you know? What evidence do you have to support that statement?

I can't prove something that doesn't exist. Sorry.

You are the one who made those wild and absurd accusations. It is your job to provide us with proof.

This need for "proof" is what?

How is that real in regards to a conflict?

Originally posted by Xcathdra
Suspended is the key word here..

Where is your proof?

Originally posted by charles1952 www.fas.org...

Sorry no proof in there. All installations are under IAEA watch.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
www.telegraph.co.uk...

Actually it is a BIG FAT lie. He used the words "Zionist regime" not the word Israel. Mistranslation again.

And you know what's funny, even the Israeli media is more accurate with that

Khamenei: Zionist regime is a cancer

www.ynetnews.com...

A-Jad: Zionist Regime a Malignant Cancer

www.israelnationalnews.com...

Originally posted by Xcathdrawww.haaretz.com...

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This article tries to correct the "wiped of the map" quote, and still does it wrong.

In 2005 he caused uproar by being quoted as saying that Israel should be "wiped off the map".

Persian language scholars say a more correct translation of his comment would read: "Israel must vanish from the page of time."

Sorry I can't take that serious.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
Because Al Queida are cowards who hide behind civilian clothes making it difficult to know who is what.

Why did we do it in Libya, after we knew it was Al Qaeda?

Why do we still do it in Syria, despite the fact, that we know, who it is who is fighting there. The democratic opposition has denounced any kind of violence a long time ago.

Why don't we intervene in Bahrain and Saudi Arabia, two of the worlds most oppressive regimes?

Originally posted by XcathdraIts more humane than removing a nation off the face of the Earth.

Do you have any idea what it means for a country if an EMP is used? I seriously doubt it!

Originally posted by XcathdraAlso if you researched Irans position towards Israel you would see the word game Iran plays when it comes to the destruction of ...

It is Zionism and the Zionist regime that Iran is criticizing, not Israel.

Originally posted by ALF88
Again the question... On what basis do you justify an attack?

There is zero proof for the Zionist accusations!

IAEA reports on the subject state Iran is not abiding by the treaties they signed (IAEA / NPT). Those reports also contradict Russias position that there is no signs of improper use of nuclear items in Iran.

Speaking of wild accusations -
* - Israel has never confirmed / denied they have nuclear weapons.
* - The 2 people in the source you gave are analysts / journalist, not members of the Israeli government speaking on authority.

I find it funny that you are quick to dismiss western intelligence sources with regards to Irans program while at the same time embracing them when the info goes against Israel. If you are going to accept the info for one, then you must accept it for the other.

Originally posted by charles1952
It may be that it's late, or for some other reason, but it seems as though everything I'm writing seems to be misunderstood, or unread, or confusing to you. Whatever it is, we don't seem to be having a reasonable discussion.

I'll try a nap. See you tomorrow.

I doubt it!

Just like I thought, NO PROOF, now you are trying to escape the discussion, hoping the thread is gone tomorrow.

Originally posted by penninja
This need for "proof" is what?
How is that real in regards to a conflict?

Israel accuses Iran of building nuclear weapons. That is the reason why they want to launch a preemptive strike, now possibly even nuclear.

Where is the proof for that accusation?

Originally posted by ALF88

Originally posted by penninja
You'd be wrong on that last count

Nope, I am 100% correct. It was Yuval Diskin, former head of Shin Beth who said that.

Originally posted by penninjaIf I am out somewhere and a conflict arises and reaches trash talking and threats are made I do the daily life equivalent every time and throw the shot if I feel threatened, i'd take a bit o time in jail any day rather than be physically harmed, jail, or in this case sanctions, condemnation, loss of some rights...whatever. These things are meaningless vs being alive.

Threats are made from both sides. In that case Iran has just as much reason to attack Israel. They are not doing that, all they are saying is, that they will retaliate.

Originally posted by penninja... and If Israel makes a move while it has the upper hand it's perfectly understandable

Again, on what basis? There is no nuclear weapons program, and you seem to forget, that this is the reason for the continuous Zionist threats. Is it ok now, if we attack each other based on messianic feelings and assumptions made by nutjob politicians?

edit on 10-9-2012 by ALF88 because: (no reason given)

Hey, I never said Iran wouldn't have just as much right to attack first right now given the threats and scenario either.

No I absolutely do not think that WE as in anyone should attack anyone else over Messianic predictions.

But here is my feeling on the subject. Judaism, here in America 8 of 10 Jews marries out of the religion, in the 5 world powers, Europe, Russia, America, China... religion has devolved into sets of customs, America admittedly has the worst "problem" with fanatics but mainly they are laughed at, another generation it's over. As Judaism goes, even the bulk of Israel is modern, despite high birth rates among the Orthodox more are lost to this thought line every year and the trend grows, likewise Judaism isn't a threat to a modern world to me because they Do NOT convert, not converting while loosing numbers among the fanatic caste doesn't threaten me.

I find ALL messianic thought to be threatening and Islam is that threat these days

So how could I ever support a cleric run nation? If the biggest goes down....

I honestly sort of see a bigger picture here if the region goes hot, I see an end to this nonsense and a new era, i don't believe the big 5 will go at each other over it, I think cooler heads will prevail and it will be a "lesson" to the rest of us. The and of an age.

Do i want anyone to die? No.... Do i think they will? yes?

I think of the region as.... almost a zombie infected zone, and too much of the zombie virus is getting out.

I've known Americans to go to "the promised land" and come back obsessed, same for mecca on the other end... the look in the eye doesn't feel "spiritual" to me the look is...dead, honestly, It's hard to even understand how it happens

Israel vs Iran... Israel isn't actually contagious, they don't convert

sorry but that's how i feel...

Originally posted by ALF88

Originally posted by penninja
This need for "proof" is what?
How is that real in regards to a conflict?

Israel accuses Iran of building nuclear weapons. That is the reason why they want to launch a preemptive strike, now possibly even nuclear.

Where is the proof for that accusation?

And i'm saying, proof isn't needed

I'm saying suspicion is enough if your legitimate enemies... Like a cop movie, your closing in on a perp and he goes into the bathroom.... so you take your safety off in case he comes out armed.

Remember Israel hasn't done anything yet

How they are dealt with if their suspect emerges from the bathroom and they open fire and they did NOT have a gun is another story?

Will I cry if they do and the worlds most vehement theocracy is gone along with a few other local centers of such thought and Israel is disbanded (looses it's badge so to speak) after the fact... Hell No

Frankly the loss of ALL WMD's through the region from all parties including israel would be an optimal outcome.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
IAEA reports on the subject state Iran is not abiding by the treaties they signed (IAEA / NPT). Those reports also contradict Russias position that there is no signs of improper use of nuclear items in Iran.

Sorry, but not a single report from the IAEA contains a single shred of evidence, that clearly states that Iran is developing a nuclear weapon. It is all speculation till the point of complete fraud (the laptop), just to create a reason for an attack.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
Israel has never confirmed / denied they have nuclear weapons.

Yeah right. Sorry you are wrong again. Proof for this is available!

www.guardian.co.uk...

It was Israeli historian van Crefeld who said, that Israels nuclear arsenal is so big, they can take the rest of the world with them, if they go down!

Originally posted by Xcathdra* - The 2 people in the source you gave are analysts / journalist, not members of the Israeli government speaking on authority.

Your article "translates" Iran's statements as well, just wrong that's the problem. Even the Israeli media is translating, what they said as "Zionist regime" and not Israel.

Originally posted by XcathdraI find it funny that you are quick to dismiss western intelligence sources with regards to Irans program while at the same time embracing them when the info goes against Israel. If you are going to accept the info for one, then you must accept it for the other.

Right back at ya my friend, just the other way around!

Apart from that there is no proof from western or Israeli intelligence services. In addition to that, they are all against an attack.

reply to post by charles1952

There is no way the U.S. would allow Israel to use a Nuclear EMP over Iran. First of all because of the Radiation and secondly because the U.S. has very powerful Non-Nuclear EMP's in their inventory. The problem with using either is that Iran is very close to Having a Leadership Change as the Current Pro-Democracy Movement is waiting for the right moment.
Over 70% of the entire Iranian population is under the age of 30 Years Old. Over 94% of Iranians want Good Relations with the U.S. so if the U.S. did use it's Non-Nuclear EMP's it could save lives but it would destroy Irans entire Communications and Power Grid.
A hopeful scenario would be the success of current secret Military to Military Talks going on between Iranian Military Leaders and the U.S. Military. These talks are being done much in the way they were done in Iraq. The Iranian Military has the most to loose here and the Only Country with the capabilities to Seize Iranian Nuclear Sites as well as talk the Iranian Military into standing down or refusing an Order from the Old Religious Guard Leadership...such as ordering the Iranian Navy to Close the Strait of Hormuz...which would be SUICIDAL for the Iranian Navy as Iranian Admirals KNOW that if they followed such an order...the U.S. Navy would OBLITERATE the entire Iranian Navy. Thus the Iranian Navy is being given a chance to Stand Down and become a Navy to protect a Free Democratic Iran...or total destruction. The U.S. would send in Thousands of Special Forces and Airborne Ranges to seize the Nuclear Sites...the U.S. Military is talking in secret with Iranian Army Leaders who know that any Counter Attack would result in entire Iranian Divisions Ceasing to exist. In Iraq...the U.S. picked a Sample Target that was a Republican Guard Division...85 to 100 Thousand Men...and this Division was KNOWN for it's atrocities. A large Wing of B-52's carrying New Smart Carpet Bombing Weapons flew over the Division. Other Iraqi Divisions said that they could hear and see from HUNDREDS of miles away the Bombing Run by the B-52's...NOT ONE IRAQI MEMBER OF THIS DIVISION SURVIVED. That next morning the remaining Iraqi Divisions surrendered and most Soldiers took off their Uniforms and walked home. In IRAN...this can be avoided as if the Iranian Military REFUSE ORDERS by the Old Religious Guard...the Pro-Democracy Movement will take over power and the Iranian Military can be preserved to be the Protectors of this new Government. I think this is HIGHLY LIKELY. Still...just as in Iraq...the Old Guard has a Division that is Highly Paid and Loyal to the Old Guard...they may have to be used as an EXAMPLE TARGET.

The U.S. sees a possible Persian Ally and keeping Israel out of the Fight is paramount as the Iranian Military sees no Dishonor surrendering to U.S. Forces as they will continue to serve Iran...but if Israel gets involved...they will FIGHT! The way it is seen by Iran's Military...following an order from the old Religious Guard that would result in the Deaths of Hundreds of Thousands and the Iranian Military has told the Old Guard there is NO CHANCE of Victory...is an order that they can disobey while preserving a bit of Honor in the Knowledge it is a Hopeless Fight.

This is not the case with Israel in the picture and this is why the U.S. have ORDERED Israel not to do anything. The Old Religious Guard is seen by the Military as willing to Sacrifice Everything to keep themselves in power. When a few months back a Military Leader who is more of a Mouthpiece of the Regime stated that the Iranians could Hold their Own against the U.S. Military and in fact inflict massive losses upon the U.S....the REAL MILITARY LEADERSHIP in the field and at sea as well as the Air Force CRINGED! This is when the Secret Military to Military Talks were initiated by the U.S. Military. The Iranian Military Leaders KNOW that the U.S. Military will not Bomb the Iranian Nuclear Sites and that the U.S. will be FORCED to Attack if the Iranians attempted to Close the Strait of Hormuz as this is the Life Line for the Majority of the Worlds Oil. They also KNOW the U.S. would never allow this to happen again or allow a Iranian Leadership to stay in power that ordered the Closing. Thus the Iranian Military sees that their own Government does not CARE if their own People...their own Military is DESTROYED just to stay in power. They will most likely STAND DOWN and claim support for the NEW DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP. If this happens...very little blood spilled and given the Iranian Military's alternative which would be TOTAL OBLITERATION...I and the U.S. is BETTING they will back the Pro-Democracy Movement. The U.S. could have a whole new Ally in the Middle East. Split Infinity

Originally posted by penninja
I think cooler heads will prevail and it will be a "lesson" to the rest of us. The and of an age.

That is something we can agree on.

Originally posted by ALF88
Where is your proof?

That info would be contained in my post. You can find it just after the comments about Iran suspending their weapons program in 2003.

Originally posted by ALF88
Sorry no proof in there. All installations are under IAEA watch.

No they are not - Iran has enrichment facilities at Parchin, a military base, and never disclosed it to the IAEA as they are required to do. That info is in the FAS article as well and it also made headlines because the facility was disclosed by Western intelligence sources.

Originally posted by ALF88
Actually it is a BIG FAT lie. He used the words "Zionist regime" not the word Israel. Mistranslation again.

And you know what's funny, even the Israeli media is more accurate with that

Whats better is apparently you just glossed over my post instead of taking the time to read the soures. No where did I bring up the past comment about wiped off the map. What I did do was provide you with sources where Ahamdenijad / Ayatollah are quoted calling for the destruction of ISrael. All of those sources are from 2012 and one is sourced back to Presstv.

So yes, they both have threatened to destroy / wipe / remove / cut out Israel from the map.

As I stated before there is no regime in Israel according to Iran. They dont recognize the Israeli government nor do they recognize the existence of Israel, so there is really no "regime" to remove. Nor is there a nation to remove since they dont recognize it, which brings us back to Iran wanting all Israelis removed.

Originally posted by ALF88
This article tries to correct the "wiped of the map" quote, and still does it wrong.

No they arent getting it wrong. You are so tunnel visioned that you are not taking the time to read the sources. The sources I posted are all from 2012 and have nothing to do with the incident you are talking about..

Originally posted by ALF88
Sorry I can't take that serious.

Then maybe you should read the posts and sources completely. Had you done that you would see I am not referring to the 2005 incident.

Originally posted by ALF88
Why did we do it in Libya, after we knew it was Al Qaeda?

Because the US had nothing to do with the arab revolution. I find it weird people compain about US involvement and how they should stay out of other nations affairs only to then argue the US should have acted.

Its contradictory and undermines the point in both directions. Al Queida are not limited to just the M.E. and have been present in other countries around the globr for some time. Should we saddle up and go remove Al Queida from those countries as well?

People seem befuddled on this point...

Originally posted by ALF88
Why do we still do it in Syria, despite the fact, that we know, who it is who is fighting there. The democratic opposition has denounced any kind of violence a long time ago.

We can either be involved or not be involved. Which one would you like choose?

Originally posted by ALF88
Why don't we intervene in Bahrain and Saudi Arabia, two of the worlds most oppressive regimes?

To stop the bloodshed sure, im for that. However it would also mean involvement in Syria, Iran and several other M.E. countries who oppress their own citizens.

If we go into Bahrain / Saudi Arabia would you spport involvement in Syria and Iran?

Originally posted by ALF88
Do you have any idea what it means for a country if an EMP is used? I seriously doubt it!

An EMP is a result of a nuclear weapon that is detonated high in the atmosphere. The pulse will interfere / fry anything electronic while the radiation / explosion results would be negligable to the population.

So yes, I know what they are and what they can do.

Originally posted by ALF88
It is Zionism and the Zionist regime that Iran is criticizing, not Israel.

As I stated before there is no recognized government in Israel through the eyes of Iran. There is no nation of Israel in the eyes of IRan. Their threats are directed at all Israelis and not just the "zionists".

If they are directed solely at the government then can you explain why Hamas / Hezzbullah, both funded and supplied by Iran, are targeting civilians? Last I checked a family of 5 is not the Israeli "Zionist regime"

Originally posted by ALF88
Israel accuses Iran of building nuclear weapons. That is the reason why they want to launch a preemptive strike, now possibly even nuclear.

Where is the proof for that accusation?

Israel has never stated Iran is building a nuclear weapon. What they are saying, along with a lot of other countries / UN, is Iran can obtain the ability to make one.

Irans ability is what this entire issue is based on.

As for Israel and nuclear can you please provide a source that states for a fact Israel has nuclear weapons.

Originally posted by ALF88
Sorry, but not a single report from the IAEA contains a single shred of evidence, that clearly states that Iran is developing a nuclear weapon. It is all speculation till the point of complete fraud (the laptop), just to create a reason for an attack.

Not really...

The IAEA reports do contain information about IRans ability to develop nuclear weapons as well as documenting Irans inability to comply with 2 treaties they signed voluntarily. They are violating the treaties by refusing to disclose their Parchin enrichment location, by refusing to make members of their program available to IAEA inspectors, by purposely obtaining material needed in the construction of a nuclear wepon through unoffical channels etc etc etc.

IAEA - Iran

Originally posted by ALF88
Yeah right.

Sorry you are wrong again. Proof for this is available!

www.guardian.co.uk...

Actually no im not wrong.. The Israeli government has never confirmed nor denied the question. The source you provided relies on S. African sources, not ISrael government officals. So its ok to use speculation and 3rd 4th 5th 6th hand information towards Israel yet when its done to Iran those very sources are dismissed?

There has been no announcement by the Israeli government on the issue.

Originally posted by ALF88
It was Israeli historian van Crefeld who said, that Israels nuclear arsenal is so big, they can take the rest of the world with them, if they go down!

Again its not coming from an Israeli government source. Again if you wish to apply that logic to Israel then we can apply it to Iran. There is a lot of intelligence / military sources inside / outside of Iran stating Irans program has militry aspects. Why are their positions summarily dismissed when it comes to Iran?

Originally posted by ALF88
Your article "translates" Iran's statements as well, just wrong that's the problem. Even the Israeli media is translating, what they said as "Zionist regime" and not Israel.

Thats because in the eyes of Iran there is no Israel and their is no Israeli government.

I am not talking about the 2005 incident. The sources I linked are from 2012 and deal specifically with statements made by Ahmadenijad / Ayatollah in 2012. It has nothing to do with the 2005 incident.

Originally posted by ALF88
Right back at ya my friend, just the other way around!

Its good for debate

Originally posted by ALF88
Apart from that there is no proof from western or Israeli intelligence services. In addition to that, they are all against an attack.

If you dont mind can you link me to your source where western / israeli intelligence individuals have definitively stated they have no proof? Could you also direct me to your source where it states they are all against it?

Originally posted by XcathdraIsrael has never stated Iran is building a nuclear weapon. What they are saying, along with a lot of other countries / UN, is Iran can obtain the ability to make one.

Should I pass you an axe for more hairsplitting? Every country using nuclear energy has that ability. Iran is enriching to 19,75% which is perfectly legal according to the NPT.

Originally posted by XcathdraAs for Israel and nuclear can you please provide a source that states for a fact Israel has nuclear weapons.

I provided proof in my last post. Apart from that that discussion is really ridiculous and it shows your true intentions and hypocrisy once again.

For how many centuries is the Zionist regime keeping Mordechai Vanunu in house arrest now, because he "spilled the beans" on their nuclear arsenal?

Originally posted by Xcathdra
The IAEA reports do contain information about IRans ability to develop nuclear weapons as well as documenting Irans inability to comply with 2 treaties they signed voluntarily. They are violating the treaties by refusing to disclose their Parchin enrichment location, by refusing to make members of their program available to IAEA inspectors, by purposely obtaining material needed in the construction of a nuclear wepon through unoffical channels etc etc etc.

Parchin is a military installation, not subject to IAEA inspections as Iran DID NOT RATIFY the additional protocol. You can whine all you want, there is no violation of the NPT! That is a FACT! Due to the fact that it was proven to you before I cannot say that you are just uninformed, you are blatantly lying!

Originally posted by Xcathdra
There has been no announcement by the Israeli government on the issue.

But those papers exist. You got nothing on Iran apart from speculation.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
I am not talking about the 2005 incident. The sources I linked are from 2012 and deal specifically with statements made by Ahmadenijad / Ayatollah in 2012. It has nothing to do with the 2005 incident.

They were purposely mistranslated, I provided links in the post, both from 2012.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
If you dont mind can you link me to your source where western / israeli intelligence individuals have definitively stated they have no proof?

U.S. Agencies See No Move by Iran to Build a Bomb

www.nytimes.com...

Mossad, CIA agree Iran has yet to decide to build nuclear weapon'

www.haaretz.com...

IDF chief to Haaretz: I do not believe Iran will decide to develop nuclear weapons

www.haaretz.com...

Now how much sense would it make to attack Iran, if there is no proof?


In addition to that numerous former heads of intelligence services and military leaders in the US and Israel have come forward and said that it is madness to attack Iran.

www.haaretz.com...

www.bbc.co.uk...

rt.com...

www.cbsnews.com...

www.telegraph.co.uk...

www.jpost.com...


It seems as if you are online for 24hours. Are you sharing the account?

reply to post by Xcathdra

The Iranians have built and are running Tens of Thousands of Centrifuges. There is only ONE REASON that they would need this many Centrifuges as if they obeyed the NPT they can enrich Uranium or even BUY Uranium to run their Reactors. It is A HELL OF A OT MORE EXPENSIVE to build and run all these centrifuges than to simply buy Uranium Reactor Grade Fuel. And they certainly would not use this method for the creation of making Reactor Grade Fuel.

The ONLY REASON to do this is to secretly enrich enough uranium to Weapons Grade. The U.S. has ordered Israel that they are not to Bomb these sites as it would poison the whole area. This reality is more than enough proof to state that IRAN HAS AN ACTIVE PROGRAM TO DEVELOP A NUCLEAR WEAPON. Split Infinity