The Politics of Rape, page 5


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reply posted on 9-9-2012 @ 01:56 AM by Unity_99
Originally posted by Honor93
reply to
post by Unity_99

Knocking someone out is extremely violent and pre-meditated form of bullying and massive abuse, not sexual.
does your theory apply when the knock-out method is a drug, alcohol, persuasive coercion or the mere threat of substantial bodily harm (as with a knife or gun) ??

while i agree the whole scenario is pre-meditated, it is not force, violence or physical abuse that indicates pre-meditation. and, any act which is pre-meditated will be repeated until the desire is removed. (ask any addict)


Pardon me, first of all I took that to be a physical knock out, as i was threatened with by a police officer when I was 19, but I did ignore him and continued to call out for help until I was rescued.

However, now that you have brought out slipping someone a mickey as it used to be called, that is also FORCE.


reply posted on 9-9-2012 @ 02:00 AM by Unity_99
reply to post by RealSpoke



A date rape scenario could very well just be about sex. Even though I can see how power could be a part of it if they are the ones drugging the drinks themselves.


Agreed.

Even in a date rape situation, the one committing this act, is callous to the other person's value as a person and is violating their core being and harming them emotionally for years and is overriding them physically to assualt them sexually. It may have a sexual impulse, in some cases, but it is still a complete sociopath/psychopath that could ever do that to someone and dissociate them from human dignity or ignore their wishes and No's. This is an extreme selfish dangerous bully. So the issues go far beyond sexual impulse and into deep rooted power plays.
edit on 9-9-2012 by Unity_99 because: (no reason given)



reply posted on 9-9-2012 @ 02:02 AM by cartenz
Originally posted by LeatherNLace
Originally posted by cartenz
Im not certain, but I think that is the mentality feminism opposes. If a MAN wants sex, and cant get it, surely he is an evolved enough creature to be able to suppress such urges?

if a male of the human species can not suppress his urges then is he no more than an animal?

Freud has a lot to answer for! as Capra puts it in The Truning Point, Freud only applies to the sick third of humanity.


Regarding that "sick 1/3 of the population"; if the government would step aside and deregulate sexuality, then that 1/3 would be further reduced; or, at least, appeased via legal means. It would not reduce sex crimes to 0%; however, it would reduce sex crimes, increase/create income potential for individuals and create a new taxable workforce (which already existed, but has never been accounted for). The same can be said of the prohibition of "illegal" substances.

Live and let live....so long as you do not infringe upon the rights of another, then why should anyone else bother worrying about it; nor get involved. I have lived by that rule my entire life....it works!


The jurisdiction in which I live has decriminalised prostitution (and yes, sex workers have been charged for not paying income tax), so I dont buy the argument that a small government approach will reduce sexual violence and sex crimes.

I also find it morally repugnant that a government (any government) would tax one of the most disenfranchised working groups.

That said, the "containment policy" as its know here has greatly reduced the sex trafficking (slavery) industry by making madams legally accountable for their staff. Also it has removed a large organised crime component of the sex industry here.


reply posted on 9-9-2012 @ 03:13 AM by Honor93
reply to post by Unity_99


Pardon me, first of all I took that to be a physical knock out, as i was threatened with by a police officer when I was 19, but I did ignore him and continued to call out for help until I was rescued.
sorry to hear about such an experience but yes, a physical knock-out would apply.

the part i'm not following from your previous comment involved correlating force with pre-meditation.

not quoted here, but it led me to think that "based on the use of force" a rape can be considered pre-meditated --> with which i happen to disagree.

this train of thought may lead some to think that rape is, in some imaginable way, spontaneous.
not in my book it isn't.

i believe most survivors would support the opinion that an act of rape is always pre-meditated, with or without additional physical force/coercion of any kind.
hopefully, we agree.

ETA: brutality often accompanies rape, but, it should never be used to mitigate damage caused by the rape.
edit on 9-9-2012 by Honor93 because: ETA



reply posted on 9-9-2012 @ 11:24 AM by cartenz
reply to post by Unity_99



Sorry for misreading. I have consumed a lot of info this weekend and think it may be time to take a rest...


reply posted on 9-9-2012 @ 11:59 AM by dontreally
Of course... These far left liberals don't care too much about 'morality' - at least, not in the sense of abiding by principles - the traditional sense. Their morality veers off into nether zones of 'relativity' - of necessity provoking action. In this case, even though rape is OBVIOUSLY perpetrated by males who are sexually frustrated and morally insensitive, feminists would prefer us to believe that it is a power thing, and then men must demasculate themselves to provide women room to breathe.

I will never forget this apposite reply of John Adams to his Feminist wife Abigail.

"Abigail Adams grated on her husband John in letters demanding full legal rights for women: “we are determined to instigate a rebellion” she declared, echoing the women of Athens in Lysistrata. John Adams’ reply was only too apt: men’s legal privileges were essential, he wrote, “we dare not exert our power [in the home] in its full latitude…in practice, you know, we are the subjects. We have only the name of masters. To give up on this would subject us completely to the despotism of the petticoat.”

Feminists want us to forget the already established, perennial known fact of their subconscious power over man. In Toronto, for instance, there is this ridiculous parade called "slut-walk" in which woman dress like sluts in order to protest inequality between the sexes. Just 2 weeks ago the mayors niece, krista ford, advised women in Toronto not to "dress like whores" as a preventive measure against being targeted for sexual harassment. Guess what the response was: instead of being viewed as an OBVIOUS piece of practical advice, it was criticized and lambasted for it's implicit sexism "why should women have to curtail what they wear while men get to wear what they please". I sit astounded; the crux of sexual assault is the feeling of sexual frustration, and that the more scantily dressed the woman, the more likely it is that she would be targeted for sexualization by the perpetrator. <--- This is sound reasoning. But to Toronto's feminists, it's unconscionable. They cannot countenance the biological fact that men have a greater sex drive than women do; they cannot tolerate biological facts which in fact put them in a particular advantage over men. NO. They ALSO want complete equality in every fathomable sense: to walk topless, despite the effect it would have on men, married men, young men, and etc - ignoring the obvious psychology and absurdity of their demands.

This in my mind is a larger project to move from what feminists have called the "patriarchal society" to a matriarchal society. It's the move in the opposite direction - perhaps, the counter intuitive direction, since men, as John Adams aptly noted, are already so influenced by the opinions and suggestions of women. To accord them overt privileges which apply to men because of necessary biological differences, would in fact be granting them full power; both overt and covert, power over political institutions and over men's hearts.

Putting up 'guards' against such 'despotism' - such as moral rules which suit biological necessity, for instance, that men may go topless but woman may not, is an expression of a 'patriarchal code': it exists because differences in the sexes is acknowledged to exist; a woman's reaction to a topless man does not produce - in the normal woman - sexual thoughts as in men. Whereas man, at the mere sight of a topless woman, especially a young and attractive one, will automatically, independent of all conscious control, elicit arousal. And arousal in a man with nebulous ethics will more likely lead to rape than in a man who "dislikes women" - seeks to exert power over them for ideological reasons - but lacks any sexual drive to do so. Such is the nature of the human organism: it is emotion - sexual arousal - which leads to actions such as rape. Not ideology.
edit on 9-9-2012 by dontreally because: (no reason given)



reply posted on 9-9-2012 @ 01:33 PM by ErgoTheConclusion
reply to post by Dark Ghost


I have been yearning for someone to eloquently discuss this topic from this angle for a long time. I've had small success in one on one conversations with both males and females, but reaching a broader audience is difficult without being easily misunderstood. This is a very helpful article because both sides of the issue need to be able to be honest in order to reach any *real* improvements to the situation.

As a male I painfully ask "If women are now more liberated with more power in society than ever before... and men are/were to blame for the objectification of women... why are women objectified now more than ever?"

Namaste.
edit on 9-9-2012 by ErgoTheConclusion because: (no reason given)



reply posted on 9-9-2012 @ 03:31 PM by dontreally
reply to post by ErgoTheConclusion



This hyper concern with physical beauty is an objectification of body. What the feminists want - a pipe dream, a fantasy - is to have their cake and eat it too. They want the latitude to present themselves in any way they desire, but also, to deny basic facts of biology, to deny that men, independent of their own volition, will become more aroused when women present themselves more scantily dressed.

This tabula rasa nonsense which hypothesizes a mans reaction to a woman's beauty and charm to be nothing more than 'environmental conditioning' is absurd, unscientific ideologically motivated trite. They want to erase that reality in order to arrogate further powers for female kind, as if their subconscious emotional sway over a man's psychology weren't enough; because anything less then complete unqualified equality - because to be different means to be inferior, apparently - is somehow immoral.

If patriarchal society means acknowledgement of differences, and matriarchal society means abnegation of differences, than I think if we want to live in a just world, we should prefer a patriarchal society.

Womankind has been favored in a way that man isn't. A man cannot exert subconscious, subtle influence over a woman's decision making and behavior as a woman can over a man. Feminists choose not to take note of this. Somehow, it's irrelevant. But in any case, since it is acknowledged the world over, from ancient times to now, it's unnatural to treat women in every situation the same as men; a simple example being the desire for equality in public dress: just as men are allowed to walk around topless, feminists argue they should be granted the same privileges. Ignored is the biological effect a topless man has on women verses the effect a topless woman has on men. This alone determines the morality. The circumstance - a mans biology and his response - puts him at the mercy of his sex drive once he sees a topless woman. Conversely, a woman can see a topless man and not sexualize it. The issue being: how the sex in question responds to the sight of toplessness. A woman's biology allows her the wiggle room to not be afflicted with unwanted sexual thoughts, whereas a man, whether a married one who values monogamy with his wife, and thus freedom from oppressive thoughts, or a youth, who shouldn't be inured to such sights at such a young and suggestible age, has much less freedom.

Laws are designed to promote freedom, no??? Well here, feminists want to take what little freedom law gives men from their sultry powers over us. It seems to me feminism is motivated at root against biology, against God; at it's root, it's a rebellion against nature - which is ironic since they use nature in their platform. In any case those who desire to live free, which means, to live from EXTERNAL INFLUENCE i.e. the pangs of unqualified instinct, which affects men far more than women, for those who value the freedom to will what they please, who value the freedom to live as they please, this wanton abuse of scientific fact by feminists impinges on THEIR freedom to think and feel free from external influences.

Hence, feminism is intimately linked with moral relativism, with nihilism, with naturism; in short, with ancient paganism. What the Judeo-Christian tradition sought to emancipate mankind from - from subservience to the passions - feminists hope to bring us back into slavery to. But who does it benefit?? It benefits THEM! They will have all the emotional power over us in addition to political powers which support them.

The Judeo-Christian tradition balances it out. It acknowledges, and indeed, it cannot outright erase, the influence a woman has over a man; nature has decreed that it be so, that men, like the Absolute, seek expression, just as a woman takes the indeterminate seed of a man and gives it expression in her womb as a child.

This is natural law. A womans power is essentially esoteric, private, and covert. To give her exoteric, public and overt powers, doesn't change the situation. It just affords her the power to rule over men inside and out.

That's the fact of the matter. Thus Patriarchal law is a balance of natures - and a woman's - power over man.
edit on 9-9-2012 by dontreally because: (no reason given)

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